"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Clai]

The point is, you can't punish Up-smash -> run away. And then if you DO try to punish it, the attempt is futile and results in you getting owned.

Up-smash has virtually no ending lag, and it's extremely safe on block. I can also run away faster than you can wizkick. You're never going to directly challenge G&W's Up-smash if you know what's good for you (it essentially has invul frames).

And before you complain about G&W's Up-smash being ridiculously slow or something, just remember that the actual charge release is 2 frames.

And other stuff...I know G&W can duck under the wizkick and jab...

That all depends how close you are when you attempt up-smash plus run away. If we're really close, our dash attack trades hits with all of your aerials, so we're pretty safe doing that. If we're far away and you're trying to bait us, we'll just try to get a favorable position because we know we're slow and can't punish attacks like that.

Essentially, we won't punish Up-smash -> run away. We'll just keep a neutral position and attempt to punish what you'll do after that. Nothing's really gained from it.

Ducking is almost as broken of a mindgame as standing. As a G&W and Kirby secondary, I know full well about what ducking can accomplish.

 

[PhantomX]

Our Dash Attack does not trade hits with his up B which is his best runaway move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That all depends how close you are when you attempt up-smash plus run away. If we're really close, our dash attack trades hits with all of your aerials, so we're pretty safe doing that. If we're far away and you're trying to bait us, we'll just try to get a favorable position because we know we're slow and can't punish attacks like that.

G&W's B-air and F-air beats his DA unless you start it inside his attacking range since it's more disjointed.

If G&W is really close to you, he can just Jab, and this counters all of Ganondorf's close-up options. G&W's Jab is safe on shield and is faster than all of Ganondorf's attacks.

Essentially, we won't punish Up-smash -> run away. We'll just keep a neutral position and attempt to punish what you'll do after that. Nothing's really gained from it.

If I up-smashed your shield, which you are almost inevitably going to do in anticipation of ANYTHING G&W throws at you, this puts me in a good position to simply B-air.

Keep in mind, Ganondorf actually lacks any real way to punish G&W's B-air out of shield...his shieldgrab is bad, and his Jab is too slow. Not to mention Ganondorf is pretty easily shield poked.

You can trade hits with it with F-air or (sometimes) tilts/F-smash, but a good G&W is incredibly hard to hit with those attacks when Ganondorf can't chase him down if he chooses to retreat.

 

[@HomE]

G&W's B-air and F-air beats his DA unless you start it inside his attacking range since it's more disjointed.

If G&W is really close to you, he can just Jab, and this counters all of Ganondorf's close-up options. G&W's Jab is safe on shield and is faster than all of Ganondorf's attacks.

If I up-smashed your shield, which you are almost inevitably going to do in anticipation of ANYTHING G&W throws at you, this puts me in a good position to simply B-air.

Keep in mind, Ganondorf actually lacks any real way to punish G&W's B-air out of shield...his shieldgrab is bad, and his Jab is too slow. Not to mention Ganondorf is pretty easily shield poked.

You can trade hits with it with F-air or (sometimes) tilts/F-smash, but a good G&W is incredibly hard to hit with those attacks when Ganondorf can't chase him down if he chooses to retreat.

There can only be one way to settle this, just have Kosk play your G&W and we will do whatever he does

 

[A2ZOMG]

I just played some really good G&Ws in my area keep in mind. Hydruz ***** the **** out of my Ganon on the AiB ladder. Another good G&W player Aer_However (whatever his name is), I did take to the 3rd matchup and got ***** on the final counterpick since he started to pick up on my playstyle.

So really, I think I have legit doubts about this matchup...it's worse than I thought it was before. A good G&W that properly reacts to when you shield and when you approach is nearly impossible to hit from my experience. It requires way too much unsafe prediction if he doesn't play recklessly. And once you go offstage, if he doesn't suck, he'll know that all it takes to gimp you is a weak hit from the F-air and then an edgehog, and if he knows his spacing, there is very little you can do about it even if you DI well.

Koskinator...when he challenged me to a MM at Genesis, he said that I'd probably win if I used G&W against him. =/

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I just played some really good G&Ws in my area keep in mind. Hydruz ***** the **** out of my Ganon on the AiB ladder. Another good G&W player Aer_However (whatever his name is), I did take to the 3rd matchup and got ***** on the final counterpick since he started to pick up on my playstyle.

So really, I think I have legit doubts about this matchup...it's worse than I thought it was before. A good G&W that properly reacts to when you shield and when you approach is nearly impossible to hit from my experience. It requires way too much unsafe prediction if he doesn't play recklessly. And once you go offstage, if he doesn't suck, he'll know that all it takes to gimp you is a weak hit from the F-air and then an edgehog, and if he knows his spacing, there is very little you can do about it even if you DI well.

Koskinator...when he challenged me to a MM at Genesis, he said that I'd probably win if I used G&W against him. =/

Kosk is starting to doubt himself now?

 

[@HomE]

Well my roommate is a G&W main and I'm a Ganon main, and I do agree this match-up (Once the G&W understands it) realllly sucks for Ganon... G&W can just spam c-stick and Ganon really doesnt have many options... G&W's Up-B+D-air > Ganon's Moveset

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can try to space D-tilt if he spams C-stick (has more range)...just if you don't predict him before hand when he does something like Up-smash -> run away...you're not punishing him.

I think you have enough time to Double jump U-air if he does Up-B D-air a lot.

The problems I have in this matchup are punishing intelligently spaced Smashes (safe on block) and B-air (requires spacing risky attacks to trade hits), his Jab (safe on block and fast), and his D-tilt beats out predicted aerial tricks (like Thunderstorming) and stops pretty much any "approach".

 

[@HomE]

We have yoshi at 15-85, and if i remember correctly Kalm himself said in the yoshi match-up thread it was more like 70-30 if the CG spike wasnt true, and it seems that they think it isnt true. should we discuss yoshi again? or is that number outdated? or is it really that bad...

 

[TP]

We have yoshi at 15-85, and if i remember correctly Kalm himself said in the yoshi match-up thread it was more like 70-30 if the CG spike wasnt true, and it seems that they think it isnt true. should we discuss yoshi again? or is that number outdated? or is it really that bad...

I don't think the matchup itself has changed, but I think our interpretation of the numbers should. I have seen people post saying that 35-65 is "unwinnable." I have seen MANY people post saying that a 30-70 matchup renders a character unviable. I have recently seen people call Pikachu-Fox only 70-30, despite Pikachu completely shutting Fox down and having a chaingrab. I feel that in general we make the numbers too one-sided. If our standards were the same as everyone else's, none of us would ever be able to win a tourney set. Many of us have shown that almost all matchups are manageable. Do any of you agree with me?

 

[thexsunrosered]

Do any of you agree with me?

definitely

 

[TP]

Look at this post in the discussion currently going on at the DDD board:

This matchup is easy as pie. CG Ganon off stage and edgeguard with bair/fair, that's a stock right there. Dedede can also shieldcamp all day and Ganon can do little to stop him. Just watch for his side-b, and don't get hit with auto canceled stomp, he can do some crazy stuff from it. Finally, beware of uair when recovering. Dedede should never really lose this matchup.

70-30

We would have taken that post and called it 80-20. That's what "should never really lose" means to us. The rest of smashboards sees 70-30 where we see 80-20.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Look at this post in the discussion currently going on at the DDD board:



We would have taken that post and called it 80-20. That's what "should never really lose" means to us. The rest of smashboards sees 70-30 where we see 80-20.

Nah, I just think us Ganon users are hardcore enough that we consider what the rest of smashboards considers virtually unwinnable "winnable".


Oh, and the DDD boards are underestimating the degree of obliteration they apply to Ganon.

 

[Squirrely]

I wouldn't say they're underestimating their advantage over Ganon if they think Ganon is "easy as pie."

In fact, that little blurb by Monkey Wrench seems right on the money to me.
The only thing that is off is the number. But if you read what he wrote you don't even need to see a number.

 

[A2ZOMG]

DDD doesn't destroy Ganon like other characters imo. He's not the best character at gimping Ganondorf, and he also has a ton of trouble killing heavyweights.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I wouldn't say they're underestimating their advantage over Ganon if they think Ganon is "easy as pie."

In fact, that little blurb by Monkey Wrench seems right on the money to me.
The only thing that is off is the number. But if you read what he wrote you don't even need to see a number.

No, terms like "easy as pie" do apply to 70-30 match-ups, anything that's a hard counter or worse deserves the label.

No, the description fits the label perfectly, he's just worse then that.


Basically, to play Ganon you have to be hardcore enough to laugh off match-ups like they describe all day.

DDD doesn't destroy Ganon like other characters imo. He's not the best character at gimping Ganondorf, and he also has a ton of trouble killing heavyweights.

Yeah, but his CGs destroy Ganon amazingly well, especially the step CG.

And wall of pain vs. Ganon, not pretty.

 

[@HomE]

I think a big advantage for the elite Ganon mains is that no matter how well people know the match-up.. we are most likely gonna do **** that they have never seen before. That can possibly get us a couple wins, BUT if they are super pro and can adapt to your playstyle within the first game or two, then GL hahaha


EDIT: i just read a bunch of the DDD match-up discussion and i thought it applied directly to this post, they think so much ridiculous ****, they know alot about what we what we are CAPABLE of but im 90% positive that NONE of them have faced a Ganon that is as good as anyone higher then me on the tier list. They have never actually seen a fantastic Ganon mindgame the **** out of them (looks at Kosk) I think once we get out and start Ganon rapeing people they will realize that Match-up numbers dont mean anything if they get spiked

I guess my point is that we all know Ganon is bad, but know one realizes how beastly the Ganon mains are

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'm going to completely reformat this thread, starting now.

 

[:034:]

Make it so that you can easily print it out and take it with you to tournies.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Make it so that you can easily print it out and take it with you to tournies.

Sure.

10sures.

 

[Ant1]

I guess my point is that we all know Ganon is bad, but know one realizes how beastly the Ganon mains are

They'll all be thinking, "ur playing ganon? this'll be easy" then wham! Ganon's megaton boots are slamming on their heads!
When i play i tend to make up new strategies as i go along, i try new combo's and such.

Anyway... i told my brother to play Falco, he didn't play as campy as he could've and falco isn't by any means his main. but i still owned him. He chaingrabbed to spiked me, and edgehogged me and i still won! I personally don't think Falco has that big of an advantage vs ganon.

He tried to chaingrab me multiple times, but i basically just spotdodged his grabs and evaded it enough for him to get reckless and use other attacks or for me to get the chance to punish him.

anyway i gtg to sleep write moar later

 

[@HomE]

I personally dont mind fighting Falcos because i dont know what amazing Falco players... The best falco vs the best Ganon IMO would be a no contest... Falcos Laser > Ganon

They can just camp us, as gay as that is, they can do it. A good Falco knowning the match-up will laser the **** out of us over and over, keeping his moves fresh, CG spikeing, gimping, comboing... i can just imagine...

Although I've never had to deal with this personally I have a good imagination...

 

[:034:]

They'll all be thinking, "ur playing ganon? this'll be easy" then wham! Ganon's megaton boots are slamming on their heads!
When i play i tend to make up new strategies as i go along, i try new combo's and such.

Anyway... i told my brother to play Falco, he didn't play as campy as he could've and falco isn't by any means his main. but i still owned him. He chaingrabbed to spiked me, and edgehogged me and i still won! I personally don't think Falco has that big of an advantage vs ganon.

He tried to chaingrab me multiple times, but i basically just spotdodged his grabs and evaded it enough for him to get reckless and use other attacks or for me to get the chance to punish him.

anyway i gtg to sleep write moar later

I AGREE, and thought about making a thread about it. Falco is a bad match-up, but it can't be the worst...

First of all, you just gotta camp against his camping. What. No, really. Just get away from them while they storm you with lasers until you hit 30-40%. Get to the center of the stage. NO CHAINGRABS

Also, you can learn to ledgetech it with good DI and SDI.

Besides that, Falco is prime-time reverse uair food since you know exactly what they're doing - side-B. If they go low, it's up-b and they're ready to get hit by anything... Which will kill them.

Falco is also a fast-faller... Way easy to combo. Falco can also combo us but I believe not as easily.

However, he still has the lasers and good edgeguarding in return. Not to mention a good techchase game... Falco and Ganon feel very alike in my opinion, once you have the momentum going you're set for the rest of the match. It's just that Falco gets there a LOT easier than Ganon does.

I'm a Ganon and Falco main now so... yeah

 

[TP]

Guys, against Falco just be awesome like me and SDI the spike so that you land ON THE STAGE without any teching or anything, then turn around and land an Utilt for the win. What's the big deal?

 

[Deleted member]

Do you guys really agree with the ratios on that chart?
Cuz those are pretty rediculously wrong in almost all of them.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Do you guys really agree with the ratios on that chart?
Cuz those are pretty rediculously wrong in almost all of them.

Do you play as Ganondorf? No, you don't, you wouldn't know.

 

[Deleted member]

I do. Im decent enough wiht him, cuz im a decent enough player, and im doing my best to learn. These matchups are utterly rediculous, ganon is terrible, but not THAT terrible.
Do you go to tournaments, no you dont, you wouldnt know.
Do the ganons that actually go to tournaments all agree with all these matchups.

Ganon can punish one mistake and take half of MKs stock, or more.
Ganon cant approach, but his punishing game is amazing on almost everyone.
Ganon vs yoshi isnt nearly that bad, just dont get grabbed, powershield eggs, etc.
Ganon edgeguards a lot of the characters u have as 80-20ish like a monster.

After seeing that thread saltykracka made, a random comment on how i know a tiny bit about ganon: I went even with him in ganon dittos (he won tho) offline when i didnt play ganon XD Now I'm trying to get good with him to use in tourny a little

 

[SaltyKracka]

I do. Im decent enough wiht him, cuz im a decent enough player, and im doing my best to learn. These matchups are utterly rediculous, ganon is terrible, but not THAT terrible.
Do you go to tournaments, no you dont, you wouldnt know.
Do the ganons that actually go to tournaments all agree with all these matchups.

Ganon can punish one mistake and take half of MKs stock, or more.
Ganon cant approach, but his punishing game is amazing on almost everyone.
Ganon vs yoshi isnt nearly that bad, just dont get grabbed, powershield eggs, etc.
Ganon edgeguards a lot of the characters u have as 80-20ish like a monster.

After seeing that thread saltykracka made, a random comment on how i know a tiny bit about ganon: I went even with him in ganon dittos (he won tho) offline when i didnt play ganon XD Now I'm trying to get good with him to use in tourny a little

It's good to know that at least somebody remembers me, though I've been trapped off of Brawl for so long.

 

[TP]

Do you guys really agree with the ratios on that chart?
Cuz those are pretty rediculously wrong in almost all of them.

I've been arguing with Kalm since like the start of 2009 about the numbers. He gets his numbers from the worst possible source: his own wifi experience. Case in point: Olimar. Everybody agreed on 70-30, and then he came out of nowhere saying 95-5 because Dabuz ***** him. Kalm had no idea that Dabuz is a freaking monster who ***** everyone, regardless of who they use. And that is why we have our current number there.

 

[PhantomX]

I personally have a ****load of trouble with Falco. I never die to the CG > Spike but his BACKAIR is such a *****.

 

[@HomE]

what if we had as many knowledgable Ganon mains as we could get, make their own lists of the match-up #'s and the average them all?

 

[Deleted member]

Thats dumb.
Just have an ACTUAL DISCUSSION and get the numbers FROM THOSE.
Numbers dont matter as much as what to do in the matchups. Knowing what the number is wont win you the matchup.

I would SUGGEST (seeing as I dont main ganon and i probably dont know anything, thats all i can do) that you get rid of all the numbers that are there right now.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Thats dumb.
Just have an ACTUAL DISCUSSION and get the numbers FROM THOSE.
Numbers dont matter as much as what to do in the matchups. Knowing what the number is wont win you the matchup.

I would SUGGEST (seeing as I dont main ganon and i probably dont know anything, thats all i can do) that you get rid of all the numbers that are there right now.

.... Ray runs the thread, the only way to do that is remove the thread and start another.


We ASSUMED that was how it was gonna be, but remember, Ray edits the thread. IMO, the the numbers have a ton of issues.

what if we had as many knowledgable Ganon mains as we could get, make their own lists of the match-up #'s and the average them all?

Why would that be accurate? What often happens is that there's only one person with an accurate picture of the match-up and they convince everyone else. Discussions are better.

 

[TP]

Here's a question. Ignoring our numbers, what would you guys call an unwinnable matchup? I've heard people call 35-65 unwinnable.

 

[Noobicidal]

Here's a question. Ignoring our numbers, what would you guys call an unwinnable matchup? I've heard people call 35-65 unwinnable.

Anything lower than 20:80 is unwinnable; everything else is just a STEEP uphill battle.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Here's a question. Ignoring our numbers, what would you guys call an unwinnable matchup? I've heard people call 35-65 unwinnable.

No match-up is "unwinnable", not even 100-0s (which really don't technically exist, but they're easier then typing out 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999 to 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 and people are lazy, we can't even do 99.999...9 to 0.000...1 because that equals 100 to 0).

They just require an immense skill difference.

At 70-30 the difference is large enough for winning to not be a practical possibility, and as you get higher, it gets worse.

 

[Deleted member]

^that
Ganon has really like nothing worse than a 25:75, even tho thats pretty bad.
Maybe sheik vs ganon is that bad but im not sure, ganons a pretty **** character.

 

[@HomE]

Thats dumb.
Just have an ACTUAL DISCUSSION and get the numbers FROM THOSE.
Numbers dont matter as much as what to do in the matchups. Knowing what the number is wont win you the matchup.

I would SUGGEST (seeing as I dont main ganon and i probably dont know anything, thats all i can do) that you get rid of all the numbers that are there right now.

Thanks for coming to the Ganon boards and calling me dumb for suggesting an idea that IMO is very viable.

how do you think we got those numbers in the first place? did you ignore the first 93 pages of this thread? we DID discuss these match-up quite a bit, but Kalm makes the ultimate decision on the numbers. The only thing i will say about the match-up chart is that i think NO match is unwinnable, certain characters have the ability to make winning very difficult for Ganon, but that does not mean we cannot win. anything can happen...

I agree that the numbers dont really mean all that much, its just a general idea of how difficult the match-up would be between two equally skilled players.

But i think you GREATLY under estimate the knowledge of all of the high level Ganon mains on this board, i think if we averaged the #'s of at least 5 - 7(rough number obviously) well respected Ganon mains we would have a fairly accurate depiction of Ganon's Match-ups.

 

[Deleted member]

Im really sorry. No offense intended, i wasnt trying to call you dumb.
What i SHOULD have said was i dont think that is a good idea, because discussions allow ideas to flow better and maybe change peoples ideas,.
Its not like a terrible idea, but who is considered a high level ganon main.
W/e, sorry.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree that the numbers dont really mean all that much, its just a general idea of how difficult the match-up would be between two equally skilled players.

Actually they do, or at least they SHOULD. In theory, match-up numbers are useful and should tell us about how hard our match-ups are. In practice, our match-up numbers are off, hurting their usefulness.

But i think you GREATLY under estimate the knowledge of all of the high level Ganon mains on this board, i think if we averaged the #'s of at least 5 - 7(rough number obviously) well respected Ganon mains we would have a fairly accurate depiction of Ganon's Match-ups.

No, it's not that, the thing is having a large number of good players is best used for them to contribute their individual knowledge to a discussion instead of just letting them every give a number to everything. The reason is, nobody knows everything about everything, however if everyone knows a good amount of stuff you can form a pretty complete picture of nearly any match-up.

Almost every discussion has a collective "I didn't know that" moment that drastically changes the match-up and generally morphs the ratio into something unexpected. It does our match-ups a disservice to not let that happen.

^that
Ganon has really like nothing worse than a 25:75, even tho thats pretty bad.
Maybe sheik vs ganon is that bad but im not sure, ganons a pretty **** character.

MK, Marth, DDD, Snake, ICs, those come to mind immediately.

Unfortunately, Ganon isn't a very **** character, he's the opposite, a bottom tier character.