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"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

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:034:

Smash Hero
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I say 80-20 or 75-25. A good MK that knows the match-up can really shut down a lot of things that Ganondorf can do. Perhaps not the worst match-up, but it's very difficult nonetheless.
 
GanonkingAbyss

GanonkingAbyss

Smash Apprentice
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i'd actually say 80-20 example: when i fight mero he three stocks my ganon w/mk. i beat jairo half of the time and most of the time jairo almost beats mero with kirby. if me and jairo are almost the same and same w/mero and jairo then that would mean i'm fairly close to mero and he still 3 stocks me(this was 1 or 2 months ago)
 
adumbrodeus

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Seriously guys, you're underestimating him.

This is like the marth match-up, and to show that, I'll quote my Marth post, edited for MK:


adumbrodeus said:
Marth's MK's spacing game is incredibly deadly against Ganondorf. Realistically his 4 3 safe pokes (fair, dtilt, ftilt, nair) in addition to his insane really good punishment game **** Ganondorf.


High level match-up develops like this:


Marth MK gets Ganondorf into poke spacing, Ganondorf has no tool to force a close approach. This means that Marth MK can freely apply all the sheild pressure he wants and Ganondorf is forced to approach from that spacing since there's no way to force a more advantagious spacing without approaching, this isn't nessecarily a disadvantage, but against Marth MK it always is effectively.


Unfortunately, Marth's MK's OOS game is INCREDIBLE very good but not quite as good as Marth's, tap his shield with anything and you're either getting a dancing blade or a Dolphin slash to the face. 4 frame start up and 0 frame start-up (invincable till the frame 5 hitbox) btw frame 5 up-b with an invincability frame on 4, so it's effectively frame 4, frame 3 dtilt. This means that even the normally safe reverse uair doesn't work, Marth MK just punishes too well and the shield-stun isn't enough.

Don't even try d-tilt, he can punish that too.



So, like Ganondorf against Captain Falcon, forced to approach via a safe poke move (or projectiles for that matter) and every approach is punishable. That means a disadvantage right there.




They both have nice edge-guarding options, but Marth MK is gonna be so much better at getting Ganondorf off-stage, especially since the optimal spacing for Marth happens to be his sweet-spot and Ganondorf is reletively easy to edgeguard especially for MK who happens to have probably the best gimp game in the game


Also, Marth MK has a safe on block kill move here, which is his last poke one of his approaches, nair. That is Marth's MK's primary weakness in most match-ups. Gone. That and the pokes are unpredictable.


To add insult to injury, fair KILLS murder choke, it's too fast and has too large a hitbox, and is too disjointed. That's both ground and aerial murder choke btw.

As another little insult, no guarenteed murder choke follow-ups on Marth.

And then there's just his zoning game, he can wall you the entire match by throwing out hitboxes to prevent you from even being close to him.

And of course, don't forget, MK has an amazing offensive game, he's got multiple safe (nair, tornado, dair) approaches and can shieldstab with tornado, and at least one of the approaches is a kill move in and of itself.


80-20, Marth MK is a HORRIBLE match-up for Ganondorf. I'd venture to say he might be worse then MK Marth and DDD. Ganondorf's only advantage here is early kills via tipman and Marth's MK's lightness. Definately a lot worse then Samus, Marth MK just shuts Ganondorf down when played properly.
Click to expand...

If you take a look, that's actually the reason why it's considered that MK negates Marth, almost every match-up that Marth has an advantage in, MK does it better.


PS. I don't think it's worse then DDD, but neither is the marth match-up imo.
 
adumbrodeus

adumbrodeus

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talkingbeatles said:
I've hear Ice Climbers **** Ganon pretty hard...
Click to expand...
No, tipman gives us a 80-20 advantage.

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Ok, I lied, Ganon lacks the spacing game to keep them out, and their projectiles for an approach anyway. They'll get a grab, and you know happens then. ->grab->throw->regrab....->upsmash->star ko


As with a lot of Ganondorf match-ups, this sux. You do have tools though, AC dair stuns long enough for you to seperate, and I'm pretty sure squall lacks a hitbox directly above, meaning gimps are very possible.
 
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:034:

Smash Hero
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I honestly wonder about this match-up. It's probably still one of the worst, but I'm very interested in trying it out. Too bad almost nobody plays them...
 
@

@HomE

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I don't have trouble with the ICs, but as you can probably guess i dont know anyone who can CG with them at all...

Once i get one D-air to connect i seem to dominate pretty hard, i love comboing those tiny climbers. One thing ive noticed is that if i can dash attack them they are usually sent in different directions, and once they are apart i try to get them at different damage ASAP, with different %'s, they obviously will not be sent the same distance after every hit, making it alot harder for them to stay together. But then again at high levels of play.... Ganon is kinda ****ed...

I just focus on trying to get different damage, seperate, dominate.
 
S

Squirrely

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I used to enjoy fighting IC's. Then I fought one who knew how to cg. Now it's easily my least fun match-up. It's not fun. It sucks. Ganon can't get around a desynched short hopped blizzard approach. Then he gets grabbed. Then he dies. And it repeats and it just makes me feel like putting down my controller and walking away.

If the IC's can't chain grab for whatever reason, the fight becomes a bit more even. Otherwise it's Ganon getting ***** in the cornhole for a minute.

The only thing Ganon has going for him in this fight at all is he ***** their recovery. If they up-b the edge, there's a long enough pause where your stomp will get delayed on the invincible ice climber and kill the second one, then the first one. It's pretty darn satisfying. And their side-b recovery can be disrupted by most of our aerials, probably not bair, but u-air works quite well.

Hammers beat Ganon if he's above them and if he's below them @_@

This match-up blows.

10-90 IC's
 
talkingbeatles

talkingbeatles

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Squirrely said:
I used to enjoy fighting IC's. Then I fought one who knew how to cg. Now it's easily my least fun match-up. It's not fun. It sucks. Ganon can't get around a desynched short hopped blizzard approach. Then he gets grabbed. Then he dies. And it repeats and it just makes me feel like putting down my controller and walking away.

If the IC's can't chain grab for whatever reason, the fight becomes a bit more even. Otherwise it's Ganon getting ***** in the cornhole for a minute.

The only thing Ganon has going for him in this fight at all is he ***** their recovery. If they up-b the edge, there's a long enough pause where your stomp will get delayed on the invincible ice climber and kill the second one, then the first one. It's pretty darn satisfying. And their side-b recovery can be disrupted by most of our aerials, probably not bair, but u-air works quite well.

Hammers beat Ganon if he's above them and if he's below them @_@

This match-up blows.

10-90 IC's
Click to expand...
I've actually heard it's 5-95.
 
S

Squirrely

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It's probably 0-100 IC's -_-

It just hurts me to think about it.
I'm pretty sure this is the IC's easiest match-up by a longshot.
 
TP

TP

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Squirrely said:
It's probably 0-100 IC's -_-

It just hurts me to think about it.
I'm pretty sure this is the IC's easiest match-up by a longshot.
Click to expand...
It is about 0-100 on neutral stages, but thanks to counterpicking we can bring this to a solid 5-95.
 
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Squirrely

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IC's would probably destroy Ganon on Distant Planet. Slopes tend to be a godsend for chain-grabbing and Ganon gets screwed by all the wacky surfaces there, I hate that place.

The only places I'd feel not completely screwed taking IC's is Norfair, then maybe Rainbow Cruise, though I can see Blizzards and ice cubes keeping us from keeping up with the map.
 
S

Squirrely

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IC's can easily beat Ganon without infinites.
They can do anything they want to lay on the damage to Ganon and then finish it up with either an ice cube wobble to the edge followed by a smash during a grab during the get-up OR just do a CG to the edge and do a grab to spike.

Banning infinites wouldn't change anything.
 
A2ZOMG

A2ZOMG

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Oh **** this matchup. Why are we even discussing it?

Why it's Ganon's worst:
You have only ONE. FREAKING. ATTACK. D-tilt.

You so much as mispace that the slightest, you get shieldgrabbed, then chaingrabbed, then killed.

And you have to approach them. Because they will camp you with other desynched crap. And it will suck.

Also other dumb things like Squall Hammer being unable to be punished, desynched F-smashes are gay. Okay so Ganon has a slightly better air game...who cares? You can only use D-tilt in this matchup.

Now Ganon vs a single Ice Climber, that's probably in his favor. Osnap! Did I just say Ganon had a favorable matchup?!

Well, it's not as simple as that, cause Popo does have a D-throw CG...but he sucks a lot on shield by himself, and he's a lot worse at killing without the throw combos into kill moves.
 
PhantomX

PhantomX

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You don't even have dtilt, as a quick powershield will still set you up for a grab. You don't have the maneuverability to get away. Their desynching is also a *****... I don't even know why their moves come out so fast/have so much range. Gimping their up b is possible, but unlikely, and dangerous (as Nana is invincible), gimping their side b recovery is a lot easier with tipman due to it's nature.
 
A

AddictedGamer

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I can bearly look at this, it is so sad... Gannondwarf can only compete with falcon? Sorry if I was off topic, I was just interested in changing characters, Gannon was great in the last game.
 
Ant1

Ant1

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Ganon has no chance vs someone who knows how to infinite chaingrab and dsync. But vs everyone else he can win. Luckily in Australia no one plays IC, so it's all good :).
If i just spent like 5 hours learning how to CG with IC i could 3 stock the best players in Aus, no sweat. But i don't wanna be an annoying prick :D
 
Clai

Clai

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If you are interested, I have videos from APEX fighting Hylian's G&W that can maybe better demonstrate what this matchup is like (yeah, if I followed the guide more I would have had a better understanding of the matchup. That's what I get for having minimal experience against the great majority of the cast):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYDxeUszjqo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScM1cmqIaCQ

Plus a little tidbit about Kirby: If any Kirby thinks he can hammer you off-stage using the second swing (Chu-Dat is very, very good at this), grab his face, take the hammer like it's nothing, and send its puny body down into oblivion.

Translation: Ganoncide owns the hammer.

Oh, and don't get sucked in near the edge. Kirbycides are humiliating and apparently extremely effective against a recovery as linear as ours.
 
Koskinator

Koskinator

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Nah man, dont use Ganon in this matchup. I know everyone wants to rep ganon and ****, but if your taking him into a matchup like ice climbers thats not repping ganon, thats showing everyone how hard he gets *****.
 
Ray_Kalm

Ray_Kalm

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Let's move on to our final discussion. Ganon dittos. Probably the most epic matches you'll ever see.
 
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