"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[PhantomX]

You can still AC upairs (since they have a much larger window to ac), but not the dairs if you're going uphill.

Link is actually one of the easier matchups for me. While he has a great spacing and spam game, he gets RAAAAAAAAAPED by anything offstage. Chokes will be very infrequently landed if they keep their arrows flying (the one they can shoot laglessly as they land). Your best approach option is walking and powershielding their rangs/arrows/zairs. If you are in range, you can dash attack through their arrows to hit them and then start ****** when close range (Link's jabs are a good spacing tool, but not very threatening on the whole (no shield push back, so you can grab them, outranged by dtilt, etc). If you can get them offstage at practically any percent, they are screwed (especially if you get them offstage with a ftilt). Dair hits them out of their up b. run off tipmans and reverse tipmans wreck him as well... hell, you can also wizkick him from onstage (like, make the kick go straight offstage and hit him further away), especially at lower percents, b/c it will bump him far enough to screw his recovery.

Make sure you tech the rang if you get hit by the strong hit, or the Link can get some nasty combos. Stomping is great if you read, but their uptilt is great for keeping us off them. Link has some hella telegraphed kill moves (fsmash and dair primarily). Avoid those and you'll be fine. I like taking Link to stages with platforms (like BF), b/c his fallthrough platform options are not very good or very quick (nair is his best fallthrough option and it has short range). If you are proficient with items. It is quite easy to grab Link's bombs with your aerials or even Z catching. Everything else you can dash attack through if spaced right.

I'd give this a 50:50 to be honest from my experience with KirinBlaze. They can camp, but they can't run away well due to terrible jumps and a fairly average ground speed, and they have pretty terrible out of shield options (uptilt or jab, both readable and punishable). Get them offstage and it's a stock gone, regardless of percent (and if you're doing it right). Don't go to FD or Halberd or anyplace that's huge and that isn't Norfair.

 

[B!squick]

Jungle Japes would work too, I think. Bowser kills up while Ganon kills off the sides so it works out both ways for Ganon.

 

[Z1GMA]

We can SH AC aerials going uphill, z1gma?
I'd love to know how because the slightest elevation in terrain throws off my lagless d-airs and u-airs...

You can AC Bair anytime, and Uair works when there's just a slight uphill, like in Yoshi's Island.

Also, Bowser can't AC d-air, b-air or u-air with a short hop anyways.

Which plays an even bigger role on Yoshi's Island since the number of aerials he can AC becomes zero.

 

[TP]

I'd give this a 50:50 to be honest from my experience with KirinBlaze.

KirinBlaze? Not good enough. I've played and watched Legan many times. A great Link will shut you down. You can't avoid Dair after he footstools you into a bomb or something, which Legan was doing to absolutely everyone at the last tourney. Link has one of the game's best spotdodges, similar to ROB's, so it isn't as easy as you think to win up close. I really need to play Legan again soon so I can talk in more detail. BTW, Legan beat Kosk on Wifi.

 

[PhantomX]

WiFi is WiFi, where you can't powershield and you can't z grab items.

I wasn't basing the entirety of my evaluation on my matches with him, but he's a knowledgeable player and showed me almost everything that Link can do. Link should never be able to get above you without getting upaired or upsamshed anyway, just like Jiggs.

 

[B!squick]

Are you guys gonna invite the AiB Links?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Link has more than just the edge on Ganon. People keep getting the misconception that Link's projectiles are easy to avoid, when they aren't. Other characters who have projectiles have some pattern to their spam, Samus for example, Link's projectiles all have different properties, different distance they can go, and all that. I find it much easier to deal with other spams than Link. Z-Grabbing bombs, is completely pointless, most of the time, they're just going to explode in your hands by the time you catch it, otherwise Link will just avoid the throw.

This match-up's 65:35 in my humble opinion. By the time you approach Link, you get more ZAirs, retreating boomerangs, bombs, SH arrows, in your face to PS/avoid. When you're actually close enough to land a quick hit on Link, Ganon's moves are just too slow to not avoid/PS. It's basically like this, you, as Ganon, are trying to get up close to Link just to inflict that 9-13% damage, while Link is further away inflicting as much damage to you, a lot more safely.

Ganon could gimp Link off-stage? So can Link. Run off > NAir > DJ > NAir (it could be done backwards as well). Or, run off > Gale guard. Or even, run off > ZAir edge-guard. A arrow from on-stage is enough to gimp Ganon.

Link definitely has a MUCH easier time getting KOs on Ganon than vice-versa. D-smash, Fsmash, UTilt, FTilt, DAir, gimp attempts, and a few more. Link's Dsmash could punish a sheilded Ganon jab.

Boomerang has a lot of different types of set-ups. Like Boomerang up close > jab lock / arrow lock. Since Ganon is the tallest character in the game, and a falls fast, he's probably the easiest character for Link to lock.

65:35.

Edit: Jay, I already have.

 

[Z1GMA]

Not sure if I wanna call it 40:60 or 35:65 ..

Better make it 37 : 63

 

[TP]

Not sure if I wanna call it 40:60 or 35:65 ..

Better make it 37 : 63

LOL.

I'm not giving a number until next week. You all should do the same, since I am going to give a nice fat post at that time.

 

[-Mars-]

Link has more than just the edge on Ganon. People keep getting the misconception that Link's projectiles are easy to avoid, when they aren't. Other characters who have projectiles have some pattern to their spam, Samus for example, Link's projectiles all have different properties, different distance they can go, and all that. I find it much easier to deal with other spams than Link. Z-Grabbing bombs, is completely pointless, most of the time, they're just going to explode in your hands by the time you catch it, otherwise Link will just avoid the throw.

This match-up's 65:35 in my humble opinion. By the time you approach Link, you get more ZAirs, retreating boomerangs, bombs, SH arrows, in your face to PS/avoid. When you're actually close enough to land a quick hit on Link, Ganon's moves are just too slow to not avoid/PS. It's basically like this, you, as Ganon, are trying to get up close to Link just to inflict that 9-13% damage, while Link is further away inflicting as much damage to you, a lot more safely.

Ganon could gimp Link off-stage? So can Link. Run off > NAir > DJ > NAir (it could be done backwards as well). Or, run off > Gale guard. Or even, run off > ZAir edge-guard. A arrow from on-stage is enough to gimp Ganon.

Link definitely has a MUCH easier time getting KOs on Ganon than vice-versa. D-smash, Fsmash, UTilt, FTilt, DAir, gimp attempts, and a few more. Link's Dsmash could punish a sheilded Ganon jab.

Boomerang has a lot of different types of set-ups. Like Boomerang up close > jab lock / arrow lock. Since Ganon is the tallest character in the game, and a falls fast, he's probably the easiest character for Link to lock.

65:35.

Edit: Jay, I already have.

I completely agree with this post. Link just has so many options for keeping Ganon away that it's just horrible for Ganon. Link can actually punish OoS whereas Ganon can't..........and Ganons dtilt might be unsafe on block as well due to Links tether grab.

 

[PhantomX]

*Sigh* I guess if he's not considered up to par, I'll try to find a better Link to face. I find Link's spam WAY easier to manage than the likes of Samus and TL (mostly b/c he can run away really fast while spamming you).

 

[@HomE]

Link's projectiles are a *****...... BUT


Ftilt = Checkmate


60:40 for all the reasons above

 

[studly]

if the link is smart with projectiles, z air, dash attack, and his DAC ganons gona have a hard time getting to him

65:35 against ganon

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Alright guys, I'll need the ratio from the 10 panelists, again.

On another note, I finished updating the Link summary (I think I did a pretty good job at it too), so let's move on to the next character.

 

[B!squick]

Cape is ****.

 

[BoTastic!]

65:35? Isn't that a little too big? Ganon can give Mario some go.

 

[TP]

Not so fast. I'll be playing with Legan for hours Sunday night (I'm sleeping at his place) so the Link discussion can't close just like that. I'll give a big post on the matchup Monday. However, we should definitely start discussion Mario too.

To beat Mario, you need spacing. He has many very fast moves, but most don't have good range (the exception is Bair). As long as you keep your Uair and Dtilt spacing correct, you should be able to avoid his amazing combo game.

Recover low.

 

[:034:]

Against Link, I'd wager it on 60:40 Link's advantage

 

[A2ZOMG]

6/4 Mario and stuff...

Ganon can outspace Mario if he's careful...except you can't outspace Mario's F-smash because that has way too much range. Ganondorf has some minor trouble punishing Mario's D-smash since it's sorta low lag, but it also puts Mario really low to the ground. Then Mario has fireball camping which is lame. D-air is completely safe on Ganon's shield. And you have to watch out for U-air, N-air, FLUDD, fireballs, and Cape when recovering, although be thankful your Up-B isn't quite as predictable as someone like Bowser's

 

[Matt07]

Match-Up Ratio.
I believe this match-up is 60:40 because well firstly Ganon can punish us hard for mistakes, Ganon can edgeguard Mario, or f-tilt him and follow up. Ganon u-air and d-air are hard to punish with Mario due to his range.However Mario has Fireballs to keep you busy, and we can follow up with them. Mario has a Cape which can gimp your recovery if your not careful.

Stages
Mario's going to be counterpicking you to either Rainbow Cruise because he has a ton of more options and opportunities to gimp you. Probably Battlefield as well (if Rainbow Cruise is banned) since Mario loves combo'ing through platforms. I'd say Mario does pretty crappy at Yoshi's Island, and maybe Lylat. Those aren't his best neutrals...

How Mario's may play/What to do when your on the defensive or when to go offensive.
Mario's will attempt to Fireball camp you, and how you react to that Fireball can cause Mario to follow up. Ganon will spend time powershielding Fireballs, our double jump over the Fireballs, and causing Mario to the edge, where we'll most likely start playing a little more aggresively and you can punish us if we make a really bad spacing mistake.

Our you could just be lazy and hit the A button whenever you see a Fireball, more options available to you you can just follow up the jab with...whatever and punish us.

Mario vs Ganon's Aerials.
Mario's aerials are faster, and outpriotize Ganon's. I think everything, but d-air might beat out our aerials. Mario doesn't have amazing range on his aerials, and in my opinion I think Ganon's u-air will definatly be very good in this match-up. As well as d-air if we screw up on spacing racking up more damage.

How we Rack up Damage.
Mario will build up damage via d-throw to u-tilt/u-air chain at low percents. Mario will also use Fireballs, and space with b-airs for damage.

Edge Guarding.
Edgeguarding Mario can be tricky, depends on the trajectory Mario is sent. If we get hit by an f-tilt chances are we're screwed you don't even have to follow up. However at other angles, Mario will spam Fireballs to stop you from edgeguarding, just be patient and you can get a u-air, or if Mario waits to long to recover your d-air can stop us. You can also try recovering lower as some Mario's are scared of going to far down...

Special Techniques.
Mario has Aerial Cape Extension, FIHL, and uuh I think that's it? Mario's don't really use Aerial Cape extension, and I don't really see many Mario using FIHL. But if you are aerial happy they may throw it out here and there and follow up with a grab, so if you see a Mario charging his FLUDD are he's a small distance away standing there while your throwing aerials, be careful.

Blah I tried at this >_<, I'm not much for match-ups. Hope you like, lol. You guys can correct me where I screwed up, I most likely did.

 

[PhantomX]

Mario's fireballs are exceedingly frustrating, but like has been mentioned before, we punish him incredibly for any mistakes he makes, and ftilt wrecks him (not to mention with good spacing you can both dash attack through the fireballs and hit Mario). Make sure to SDI like a fiend so he doesn't wreck you constantly with his dair/uair combo setups. Keep him away from being above you with SHAC tippered upairs (I do this vs a lot of aerially strong characters, and it works incredibly). Unfortunately, just as we can gimp him, he can gimp us. If he wants to play a camp game (like practically anyone in the cast), we will be hard pressed to do anything about it. Just be very very careful when you're at kill range to not get hit by that fsmash/stutter-stepped fsmash (which we can do b/c it's slow and our dtilt marginally outranges it [I believe]), and our longevity will far surpass his.

60:40 Mario

 

[studly]

ive never gon against a decent mario in brawl.. but going off Boss' videos. im of the opinion that the matchups near neurtral... i got no ratio tho but im leaning for ganon with the spacing and priority

 

[A2ZOMG]

(which we can do b/c it's slow and our dtilt marginally outranges it [I believe]), and our longevity will far surpass his.

I doubt D-tilt outranges his F-smash. I mean come on, Mario's F-smash outranges Marth's. You're really not outranging something like that lol. And then there is another problem that Ganon's foot is out when he D-tilts making him vulnerable (I think with the right timing he can be shieldgrabbed out of D-tilt like this by characters that don't have a ridiculously fail grab like Ganon/Falcon).

 

[fromundaman]

I doubt D-tilt outranges his F-smash. I mean come on, Mario's F-smash outranges Marth's. You're really not outranging something like that lol. And then there is another problem that Ganon's foot is out when he D-tilts making him vulnerable (I think with the right timing he can be shieldgrabbed out of D-tilt like this by characters that don't have a ridiculously fail grab like Ganon/Falcon).

I thought even characters with fail grabs like ICs could shieldgrab his Dtilt.

 

[Breezy]

iDA is your best friend against Mario. Goes through fireballs, comes out fast, sets up for follow-ups with Uair, and a great kill move (when fresh) to boot.

Like somebody said earlier, recover low. Mario has too many options for gimping. Cape, FLUDD, Fair, Nair, Uair, Bair and Fireballs. However, if Mario is afraid to come after Ganon offstage and just spams Fireballs off the edge, Uair goes right through 'em.

If Mario is coming down on top of you, gtfo of there. He has tons of options for ****. If you get caught in his Dair, expect it to be followed up by a Dsmash if you're at high percents. At low percents, expect an Utilt combo. You could Usmash him before he lands on you once or twice before he learns, but then he'll just airdodge and land behind you, grab you, Dthrow, Utilt/Uair combo.

When grabbed, DI up. At low percents, beware of the Dthrow -> Utilt combo. High percents, get ready for that back throw.

Most Mario's I've played airdoge a lot, so charge F-Smash when they're coming back down to the stage and facing you. Facing away, however, get that shield up and shield grab the Bair they have coming your way.

A fresh F-Tilt will kill Mario around 90-100% depending on their DI and how close you are to the stage. I'd say when you're going for the kill, get 'em towards the edge of the stage where (as Matt put it) they'll become more offensive. This is when you bait 'em with a retreating AC Dair -> buffered F-Tilt.

 

[Breezy]

TP wanted this to be said about the Link match-up

"Always DI away from Link after a bomb hits you, or else you will eat a Dair. 60-40 Link's favor. 80-20 Ganon's favor if the opponent promises to make you dinner if you win. That sandwich was delicious."

Lol

 

[PhantomX]

I doubt D-tilt outranges his F-smash. I mean come on, Mario's F-smash outranges Marth's. You're really not outranging something like that lol. And then there is another problem that Ganon's foot is out when he D-tilts making him vulnerable (I think with the right timing he can be shieldgrabbed out of D-tilt like this by characters that don't have a ridiculously fail grab like Ganon/Falcon).

Mario's fsmash gets a HUGE range boost from stutter stepping.

 

[Z1GMA]

Gimp Wars

35 : 65


Fireball Camping isn't too effective if Mario has a high %.
Let's say you've used 2 or 3 stomps to rack up damage (Plus other moves).

Mario now has around 90% and therefore gets defensive (starts to camp).
He's inviting you to refresh all your killmoves (Including Stomp).
Just Jab his Fireballs.

It's pretty nasty when you know the next Stomp will kill ;]

 

[:034:]

There's no way Mario-Ganon is 65:35... That's like, Toon Link-level, or Snake-level... It's not that bad of a match-up <_<

 

[PhantomX]

Basically what Dutchman said.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

There's no way Mario-Ganon is 65:35... That's like, Toon Link-level, or Snake-level... It's not that bad of a match-up <_<

Actually a Snake-level match-up would be around 75:25.

Mario could 'true' combo Ganon from 0/10% - 60%+, if you didn't already know. UTilt at 0% could juggle Ganon til 40%, which is as much as Falco's chain-grab.

He doesn't have any problem killing Ganon, whereas Ganon's kill moves are too slow to land on a moving Mario. Once Ganon's off-stage, you should expect a gimp. If the Mario is good, he should almost always gimp you.

Most of our moves have too high of a hit-box to hit Mario. DTilt isn't safe on shield.

That said, Ganon does have a few things going for him in this match-up. Fireballs could be used against Mario, if you see him trying to go for a follow-up after a fireball has hit us, use FTilt, it'll just avoid about any follow-up Mario does. Dash Attack goes through his fireballs, and could even boot up a kill. Gerudo > DTilt could be used for both killing and racking up damage.

65:35.

 

[fromundaman]

Gimp Wars

35 : 65


Fireball Camping isn't too effective if Mario has a high %.
Let's say you've used 2 or 3 stomps to rack up damage (Plus other moves).

Mario now has around 90% and therefore gets defensive (starts to camp).
He's inviting you to refresh all your killmoves (Including Stomp).
Just Jab his Fireballs.

It's pretty nasty when you know the next Stomp will kill ;]

I thought clashing with projectiles didn't refresh moves unless they were Pikmin.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Twilight Prince, I didn't say that Mario could UTilt you from 0 to 60%, you should read more carefully next time.

Mario could 'true' combo Ganon from 0/10% - 60%+, if you didn't already know. UTilt at 0% could juggle Ganon til 40%, which is as much as Falco's chain-grab.

If Mario didn't have insane aerial combos and gimping abilities, this match-up would be more of a 40:60.

 

[adumbrodeus]

A little late, but I wanted to play with this match-up a bit more in my mind.

65-35

His wide variety of projectiles + zair makes him immensely difficult to approach, at long range, Boomerang, arrows, and bombs, at closer range, bombs, zair, and disjointed hitboxes rule the day.

We're best at ultra-close range, and a single nair destroys that. What prevents this from being total **** is our gimp game, he's got a very poor recovery, and not much of a gimp game to speak of.


Now...


70-30 at best.

Basically Ray said it pretty well, but there's something else that nobody on this board seems to know about Mario. You probably haven't seen this technique in tournaments yet because the mario boards are still trying to get the timing right reliably (yes, a legitimately hard AT in brawl, who knew?), but it's extremely powerful in a number of match-ups.


I'm referring to cape teleport, you can read it for a full explanation, but I think my short explanation will suffice.

When you sweetspot the ledge, it can be used to remove your ledgegrab invincibility and freeze you in place.


This is enough to push recovering from "a lot of the time, you won't make it back" to "you'll never recover against mario unless you screws up royally". Unfortunately, below used to be the best angle to recover against mario, and now this totally covers it.


Yea, at the top of the metagame, this becomes an almost Snake-level match-up.

I thought clashing with projectiles didn't refresh moves unless they were Pikmin.

Only if they're "living projectiles", for example, IC's ice blocks. I honestly don't know if fireballs are living projectiles.

 

[Z1GMA]

Actually a Snake-level match-up would be around 75:25.

If not even worse due to Snake's 'Grab Release Chain' on us ;\

 

[Ray_Kalm]

If not even worse due to Snake's 'Grab Release Chain' on us ;\

Yeah.

Only if they're "living projectiles", for example, IC's ice blocks. I honestly don't know if fireballs are living projectiles.

Ice blocks slide, and fireballs bounce.. they both seem pretty live-like.

 

[PhantomX]

Mario should NOT have an easy time killing you (gimping notwithstanding). His only solid kill move is fsmash... be more careful :\

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah.

Ice blocks slide, and fireballs bounce.. they both seem pretty live-like.

I'll check, probably sometime today.

Mario should NOT have an easy time killing you (gimping notwithstanding). His only solid kill move is fsmash... be more careful :\

outright, yes.


But, the fact that once we're off-stage, we're pretty much dead makes this pretty much irrelevant.

That and f-smash is a pretty good punisher anyway.

 

[B!squick]

I got the stale moves thread bookmarked, I'll check it.

EDIT: Aw, it doesn't have the info you guys need. I've seen the thread before, I just need to find it.
EDIT2: Doesn't mention projectiles other than absorbing/reflecting them...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208476&highlight=stale

 

[Z1GMA]

I just tested it - His fireballs doesn't refresh your moves :embarrass

D3's 'Dees do, as well as Olimar's Pikmin.
However, if you clash with them, you won't get refreshed.