"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Z1GMA]

Ganondorf is better at gimping, but Link is better at *not getting gimped* (Boomerang/Zair etc...)

 

[sasook]

I feel like they can both gimp each other well. When I played K_Prime, I nair gimped a few times, but man, you guys are underestimating that reverse uair of yours x_X. He gimped me a lot more than I did him, and I was DIing pretty well that day. His gimps weren't really low percent gimps, I lived to about 160% pretty consistently, but still, I've never had such a hard time recovering, and against Ganon of all characters. Prime made me work to recover, no doubt about that.

But I see you guys don't really agree with the writeup, so it obviously needs editing. We want the community's opinion as a whole, and when we discussed this matchup, it wasn't really Link boards vs Ganon mains, it was more like Link boards vs Kalm.

 

[weinner]

So long as we are on the topic of the link, is it possible that, while link is tether recovering, Ganondorf could do a walk-off U-air (which results in a tipman) and put Link under the stage?

 

[Legan]

Link gimping Ganon? What?

Link can regrab with hookshot so that he always has invincibility on the ledge, but he can't gimp Ganon in any other way if you're smart. Legan couldn't gimp me at all, IIRC. Of course, I couldn't really gimp him either. Most stocks lasted until well over 100% for both of us. And Link's camping is NOT hard to get around, as long as you aren't predictable. Even on FD, I was able to pressure Legan the whole time. He won of course, but that's because he's a better player than me and using a better character.

In other words, I disagree with much of the matchup summary.

You dont understand the matchup as well as I thought you did tp .


If you honestly think link has a hard time gimping ganon than you're misimformed. It's also very easy to spam a ganon. I think itd be best for you to play me in a tournament match before giving a real writeup on the matchup, then Ill have no actual reason to sandbag. You're still really good, you just have a while before you can give TRUE insight on some of these matchups.

And please no character johns, Ill accept the better player john though

 

[TP]

You dont understand the matchup as well as I thought you did tp .


If you honestly think link has a hard time gimping ganon than you're misimformed. It's also very easy to spam a ganon. I think itd be best for you to play me in a tournament match before giving a real writeup on the matchup, then Ill have no actual reason to sandbag. You're still really good, you just have a while before you can give TRUE insight on some of these matchups.

And please no character johns, Ill accept the better player john though

When I typed "better character" I thought to myself "I bet Legan sees this and posts about it."

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Legan, would you care to tell us what you think the ratio for this match-up is?

 

[sasook]

We don't care about the ratio so much as we do about having correct info, Kalm. Please, don't single-handedly start another 9 page argument over numbers.

Anyways, I'm interested in what the other Ganons have to say. Nothing against you Kalm, it's just that I know your opinion and would like to hear some more views on it from different people.

 

[adumbrodeus]

We'll just work on this as our next discussion, it's been a while since I picked up my Link, so I'll wait around a bit before posting anything.


Ray, PM the remaining panelists and tell them to post their ratios please, let's close the mario discussion finally so we can officially start Link.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

We don't care about the ratio so much as we do about having correct info, Kalm. Please, don't single-handedly start another 9 page argument over numbers.

Anyways, I'm interested in what the other Ganons have to say. Nothing against you Kalm, it's just that I know your opinion and would like to hear some more views on it from different people.

Actually, the truth is, you don't want to hear how bad of a match-up this actually is. Legan has fought Ganondorfs before, and if he's as talented as people say he is, then I'm sure he'll have no trouble defying "the" correct ratio.

 

[sasook]

What I'm saying is that correct info > ratios, for any scenario. Does it REALLY matter that badly? Plus, I'm not fully inclined to listen to you and you alone. You're not the only Ganon main in your community, and from what I've seen and heard, you're a pretty negative Ganon main yourself. Now enough about numbers, I'd like to hear other people's opinions about the INFO, not the NUMBERS.

And you can't seriously be questioning Legan's skill. That's just laughable. That's like me questioning Kosk's skill. It's that laughable.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

What I'm saying is that correct info > ratios, for any scenario. Does it REALLY matter that badly? Plus, I'm not fully inclined to listen to you and you alone. You're not the only Ganon main in your community, and from what I've seen and heard, you're a pretty negative Ganon main yourself. Now enough about numbers, I'd like to hear other people's opinions about the INFO, not the NUMBERS.

And you can't seriously be questioning Legan's skill. That's just laughable. That's like me questioning Kosk's skill. It's that laughable.

You know what's even more laughable? You, of all people, are telling me that I'm negative about my character. You.

 

[B!squick]

Can't numbers and info coexist? They come from the source. The keyboard and whatnot, and they seem fine together on there. >.>

 

[PK-ow!]

Actually, the truth is, you don't want to hear how bad of a match-up this actually is. Legan has fought Ganondorfs before, and if he's as talented as people say he is, then I'm sure he'll have no trouble defying "the" correct ratio.

Wait, do you mean... defining the correct ratio?

Whatever the ratio is.... it's correct by definition, and will instantiate itself in high level play. By definition. The word "defy" confuses me so much on the internet...


Also, Hi Legan. *waves*

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wait, do you mean... defining the correct ratio?

Whatever the ratio is.... it's correct by definition, and will instantiate itself in high level play. By definition. The word "defy" confuses me so much on the internet...


Also, Hi Legan. *waves*

He means he'll make the ratio appear to be worse then it actually is by being way too good.


Aka, I play MK, he plays Link, he'll **** my *** anyway.

 

[sasook]

*sigh* Kalm, someone quoted you in the tactical board saying you were like "the most anti-Ganon Ganon player." But whatever, you, for some reason, need to make every single thing difficult. I've already said I'm not concerned about numbers. So I'd appreciate if you could stop acting like an arrogant jerk who talks down to everyone, and actually provide some comment on the -info-. I dunno what the Ganon community thinks of you, and if you're respected/liked, then Ganon mains, I apologize for disrespecting one of your members. But there's a reason you're disliked on the Link boards. Lemme guess "you actually think I care?" right? That, or something similar. Whatever, until you can say something that isn't pure arrogance, or isn't involved in numbers, but is rather a comment on the info itself, I'm not bothering with you anymore.

Now then, other Ganons, what say you? I didn't mean to turn this into a Link discussion, every other board has had the writeup fixed within 3-4 replies, so sorry for that.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

*sigh* Kalm, someone quoted you in the tactical board saying you were like "the most anti-Ganon Ganon player." But whatever, you, for some reason, need to make every single thing difficult. I've already said I'm not concerned about numbers. So I'd appreciate if you could stop acting like an arrogant jerk who talks down to everyone, and actually provide some comment on the -info-. I dunno what the Ganon community thinks of you, and if you're respected/liked, then Ganon mains, I apologize for disrespecting one of your members. But there's a reason you're disliked on the Link boards. Lemme guess "you actually think I care?" right? That, or something similar. Whatever, until you can say something that isn't pure arrogance, or isn't involved in numbers, but is rather a comment on the info itself, I'm not bothering with you anymore.

Now then, other Ganons, what say you? I didn't mean to turn this into a Link discussion, every other board has had the writeup fixed within 3-4 replies, so sorry for that.

I don't talk down to anyone without a reason, I'm talking down to you because you spoke down to me. You may not be concerned with numbers, but when you come here asking for information on match-ups, you're gonna get a number. That's just how it works. Ironic isn't it?

If all you're going to do is insult me, then please stop posting here.

 

[sasook]

Because talking down to Legan, a player who places in offline tourneys, is justified from a person who judges every matchup from wifi (unless you found some tourneys, then I take that back). Lol, you really love to make things difficult don't you? Fine, I apologize for insulting you.

How about we just start this over? Ok, back in our thread, you said 65:35, but you said you were fine with 60:40. We put it at 60:40. So...moving on, could you guys, Kalm included, comment please?
All we're looking for is if you feel the writeup is correct, and if there's something you disagree with, please do tell.

Sorry for all the hostility x_X. Maybe it's the Link vs. Ganon spirit coming out in us xD.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Because talking down to Legan, a player who places in offline tourneys, is justified from a person who judges every matchup from wifi (unless you found some tourneys, then I take that back). Lol, you really love to make things difficult don't you? Fine, I apologize for insulting you.

How about we just start this over? Ok, back in our thread, you said 65:35, but you said you were fine with 60:40. We put it at 60:40. So...moving on, could you guys, Kalm included, comment please?
All we're looking for is if you feel the writeup is correct, and if there's something you disagree with, please do tell.

Sorry for all the hostility x_X. Maybe it's the Link vs. Ganon spirit coming out in us xD.

I judge every match-up from wifi? I guess you just love accusing people of things you don't have a clue about. I've been to plenty of smashfests and tournaments. You probably haven't been to one as of yet, judging by your tone.

Legan has fought Ganondorfs before, and if he's as talented as people say he is, then I'm sure he'll have no trouble defying "the" correct ratio.

Read my post again, word by word this time, since you seem to have problems understanding. I never spoke down to Legan. "If he's as talented", in no way means that Legan's not talented. I know how much of a talented player he is, especially compared to you, that's exactly why I'm asking for his opinion of the match-up.

I stuck with 60:40 back at the Link boards only because you guys were being such a pain in the ***. You didn't want Ganon to take Link's place of being Link's easiest match-up. You made posts (yes yours in particular) saying "Link projectiles are crap, and Ganon can powershield" 50:50, or close to that.

 

[sasook]

Ok....yeah. You got me there, won't deny that. Sorry again. sookjusgotpwned, 4srs.

So...assuming you want the numbers changed to 65:35, is there anything else you'd like changed in the writeup?

 

[TP]

The entire summary of Link should be:

Watch out for that footstool bomb Dair bull****.

 

[PhantomX]

Or "Kill him while he's still a child."

 

[Big O]

^^^I'd imagine the child puts up a better fight lol.

 

[PhantomX]

Not in Ocarina of Time :D

 

[sasook]

So....any changes? Or is it good as is?

 

[adumbrodeus]

So....any changes? Or is it good as is?

Arrows are not good at gimping Ganondorf, with proper DI they HELP recovery, that makes them useless for even controlling space.


Otherwise, it's a good write-up.

 

[sasook]

Alright, thanks everyone.

 

[B!squick]

*sigh* Kalm, someone quoted you in the tactical board saying you were like "the most anti-Ganon Ganon player."

I quoted no one. Also, we should also consider the full depth of what I was talking about. For instance, saying the Empire State Building is the shortest skyscraper. As far as Ganon players go, from what seen here and there on the Ganon Boards, Kalm just seems, to me anyway, to have to have the most negative mind set of everyone, which really ends up not being that negative, really.

In short, I may have been talking out of my ***. XD Hope I didn't cause to many problems. My bad.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

We're gonna move on. Lucas.

 

[TP]

**** Lucas, do ROB.

 

[B!squick]

ROB's trash though.

 

[YesNoMaybeSo]

81:19 Lucas.

 

[Z1GMA]

30 : 70

 

[Ray_Kalm]

30 : 70

Now there's someone with a proper match-up number, for once.

 

[:034:]

I don't feel like talking much, but to me it's 60:40 Lucas advantage

 

[Noobicidal]

Lucas' nair is a *****. Uthrow to uair can juggle to stupid percents. Properly spaced PK Spam keeps Lucas relatively safe. His recovery is ridiculously flexible.

30:70 Ganon.

 

[PK-ow!]

It's not really about PK Fire.

It's that, when you're closer than PK Fire, the kid has ranged grab, nair, and that $%&# jab. Man, **** that jab. It's so good.

The kid sucks in the air (that's not the same as saying he won't hit you with aerials, though), but stomping him is hard 'cuz PKT2 has lots of range and is pretty fast.


dtilts.


Choke goes into iDA if he attacks to get up, but apparently Lucas can DI in to screw up an ftilt.
About the Choke Chart, actually... what does "Reverse Timed" mean? What does "Double reversed" mean?

 

[A2ZOMG]

PK Fire is lame but nothing matchup driving. He can't spam it ever in midrange since that will get powershield punished. N-air is annoying but can be beaten with F-tilt/F-smash. Don't U-air edgeguard him since that generally doesn't stop his recovery. If you can, just spike him or carefully edgehog if he's coming from below.

He doesn't have nearly as many combos as some characters do on Ganondorf....he does have a powerful F-smash and D-smash though that aren't unreasonably hard for him to land in this matchup.

6/4 Lucas...Thunderstorming is near useless unless you predict a PK Fire or F-smash at point blank range or something. I haven't tried it out yet, but I bet you can grab release D-tilt on Lucas if you can force a ground break. F-throw does the same damage though so ground release D-tilt would be better saved for KOs.

 

[TP]

IF grab release Dtilt is guaranteed, I would assume grab release iDA is as well. That would be a very good killer.

I've never fought a good Lucas offline... ever. As such, I'll be choosing a middle number: 35:65.

 

[stRIP]

65:35 Lucas advantage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

IF grab release Dtilt is guaranteed, I would assume grab release iDA is as well. That would be a very good killer.

I've never fought a good Lucas offline... ever. As such, I'll be choosing a middle number: 35:65.

Just remember, you have a 10 frame advantage on a ground break. In order to force a ground break, do grab attacks (and hold slightly downwards if you're buffering D-tilt obviously).

iDA is good too I guess, but I'd assume the timing is much more difficult partly because of the way you have to buffer it.

The other good thing about getting a grab is if you're focused on grab releasing him, this means you'll have less problems with stale moves in this matchup.