"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Player-3]

also

falcon doesnt have to approach lol

he can just wait for ganon to run at him

 

[Ray_Kalm]

also

falcon doesnt have to approach lol

he can just wait for ganon to run at him

Yeah, apparently some people just don't want to believe this.

 

[Player-3]

even if dtilt is safe on block, what about an aerial approach?

jump behind you with a full hop, what you gonna do? sh uair? we can airdodge if we read you correctly, if you try to roll away well falcons fast enough to get over there

 

[Ray_Kalm]

even if dtilt is safe on block, what about an aerial approach?

jump behind you with a full hop, what you gonna do? sh uair? we can airdodge if we read you correctly, if you try to roll away well falcons fast enough to get over there

SH UAir has 7 frames of jump lag + 7 frames of start-up lag, giving it a total of 14 frames start-up, so I doubt it'll be fast enough to stop an aerial approach if DTilt was safe on block, Ganon's jumps are too short anyways.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You don't need frame data, just another human player to grab you out of DTilt. You can ask someone else to test it since you don't really seem to be trusting me.

Wait, he can just shield-grab it? Since when is falcon's grab low enough to do that? Still, see above problem.



It's not so much a trust issue, it's that you were using "approximation words", and I'm looking for exactness.


Things like, "it's about the disjointed area".


I'm not distrusting you, I just am trying to get exact information.

DTilt doesn't force approach, Falcons will never always have their shields up right infront of you. Also, I don't know why I didn't mention this before but, DTilt should never hit Falcon's shield, 10-11 frames of start-up gives Falcon the perfect amount of time to powershield. http://javascript<b></b>: leoHighlightsIFrameClose();

Actually no, fun fact, it takes Falcon's shield 3 frames to cover his entire body, only the center is covered on the first frame.

10 frame IIRC and since the hitbox is low, and we're talking about it spaced, it should be hitting the frame 3 shield, frame 2 at earliest.

 

[Player-3]

why would a falcon run and shield at you that far away anyways lol


why would a falcon run at you

 

[SaltyKracka]

Why would a Ganondorf run at you?

See, I can do it too.

 

[Red-Blue]

Wait, he can just shield-grab it? Since when is falcon's grab low enough to do that?

Since's Ganon is a giant.

Why would a Ganondorf run at you?

becuz heres ganon (x) and falcon (y) and i jab'd u and i run, what you do?

x__________________y


3%_________________0%

WHAT YOU GONNA DO?

falcon sucks

ganon sucks

 

[SaltyKracka]

This assumes that you get the jab in before Ganon can do something else to you, in which case the opposite scenario occurs. In other words, it's a moot point.

 

[Player-3]

yeah

thats why brawl sucks

 

[Sovereign]

A Jab does not have that much hit lag on it for you to pop one in and run away. If I were a Ganon, I'd kick your *** to the moon WizKick style.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Wait, he can just shield-grab it? Since when is falcon's grab low enough to do that? Still, see above problem.



It's not so much a trust issue, it's that you were using "approximation words", and I'm looking for exactness.


Things like, "it's about the disjointed area".


I'm not distrusting you, I just am trying to get exact information.






Actually no, fun fact, it takes Falcon's shield 3 frames to cover his entire body, only the center is covered on the first frame.

10 frame IIRC and since the hitbox is low, and we're talking about it spaced, it should be hitting the frame 3 shield, frame 2 at earliest.

No, you could run up and dash grab OR run up and dash attack.

10 frame IIRC and since the hitbox is low, and we're talking about it spaced, it should be hitting the frame 3 shield, frame 2 at earliest.

Hitbox being low has nothing to do with anything, and getting a properly spaced DTilt isn't going to happen especially if the Ganon's going to try to force a approach after the shield hit. Falcon's able to perfect shield it.

 

[Player-3]

yeah he is

also sh ac dair from a falcon will put him crouched above the dtilt to stomp you in the face
|: but that requires prediction

 

[Z1GMA]

If Ganon had Falcon's Jabs, he would **** Falcon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

If Ganon had Falcon's Jabs, he would **** Falcon.

It's too bad he has the exact opposite of it, isn't it?

 

[Z1GMA]

Ye ;\
.
.
.

 

[Clai]

You don't need frame data, just another human player to grab you out of DTilt. You can ask someone else to test it since you don't really seem to be trusting me.

DTilt doesn't force approach, Falcons will never always have their shields up right infront of you. Also, I don't know why I didn't mention this before but, DTilt should never hit Falcon's shield, 10-11 frames of start-up gives Falcon the perfect amount of time to powershield. http://javascript<b></b>: leoHighlightsIFrameClose();

How exactly are Falcons going to be powershielding D-tilts on reaction? Are they going to be walking or standing still when we use D-tilt, because if a Falcon is straight-out dashing at us in a position where they can shield, we're better off doing full-hop thunderstorms because they're a lot harder to intercept with Falcon's aerials/up+B than short-hopped ones. Of course when we're up in the air, Falcon can wait for us for land and do something from there, but we have no landing lag, so it's not like we're at a disadvantage there.

Fun fact: The average human reaction time is somewhere around .23 seconds, or about 14 frames. Knock off this "you can powershield everything Ganon does on reaction" nonsense, because it's simply not true.

I also like how you think Ganon having an advantage at all is some type of blasphemy. I don't think Ganon has the advantage in this matchup, but I just found what you said to be humorous.

also

falcon doesnt have to approach lol

he can just wait for ganon to run at him

Since neither character has any projectiles, Ganon and Falcon will do approximately an even amount of approaching. Unless, of course, you're going to play like a gay, in which, why the **** are you using Captain Falcon anyway?

 

[Player-3]

Since neither character has any projectiles, Ganon and Falcon will do approximately an even amount of approaching. Unless, of course, you're going to play like a gay, in which, why the **** are you using Captain Falcon anyway?

i dont play brawl lol

i used to play cf and place ~12th/35-40ish pretty consistently then i realized brawl is gay and now i play melee

im saying

you could

and matchup is doing whatever to win so yeah

 

[Ray_Kalm]

How exactly are Falcons going to be powershielding D-tilts on reaction? Are they going to be walking or standing still when we use D-tilt, because if a Falcon is straight-out dashing at us in a position where they can shield, we're better off doing full-hop thunderstorms because they're a lot harder to intercept with Falcon's aerials/up+B than short-hopped ones. Of course when we're up in the air, Falcon can wait for us for land and do something from there, but we have no landing lag, so it's not like we're at a disadvantage there.

Fun fact: The average human reaction time is somewhere around .23 seconds, or about 14 frames. Knock off this "you can powershield everything Ganon does on reaction" nonsense, because it's simply not true.

I also like how you think Ganon having an advantage at all is some type of blasphemy. I don't think Ganon has the advantage in this matchup, but I just found what you said to be humorous.



Since neither character has any projectiles, Ganon and Falcon will do approximately an even amount of approaching. Unless, of course, you're going to play like a gay, in which, why the **** are you using Captain Falcon anyway?

Power shielding is pretty easy to do, and you should be able to do it on reaction. I powershield a projectile loving Samus with ease, and at the amount and speed of her projectiles, it's harder than PSing Ganon's DTilt. So yeah, you should be able to PS DTilt on reaction. We're discussing each character on the top of the metagame.

How exactly are Falcons going to be powershielding D-tilts on reaction? Are they going to be walking or standing still when we use D-tilt, because if a Falcon is straight-out dashing at us in a position where they can shield, we're better off doing full-hop thunderstorms because they're a lot harder to intercept with Falcon's aerials/up+B than short-hopped ones. Of course when we're up in the air, Falcon can wait for us for land and do something from there, but we have no landing lag, so it's not like we're at a disadvantage there.

Read above.

Are they going to be walking or standing still when we use D-tilt, because if a Falcon is straight-out dashing at us in a position where they can shield, we're better off doing full-hop thunderstorms because they're a lot harder to intercept with Falcon's aerials/up+B than short-hopped ones.

and are Falcons not better off shielding or dodging the stomp on reaction?

 

[Clai]

i dont play brawl lol

i used to play cf and place ~12th/35-40ish pretty consistently then i realized brawl is gay and now i play melee

im saying

you could

and matchup is doing whatever to win so yeah

Let's be serious here, the only reasonable way that a Falcon is going to match up with a Ganon is when it's either a manly money match or extreme manly friendlies, since Falcon and Ganon have no place in serious tournaments (Falcon a little bit, but Ganon, he just doesn't belong). In either case, challenging someone to a manly match and then playing gay for the sake of winning is just wrong and if you do that, you should be ashamed of yourself (I'm talking about non-tournament matches here).

We should just call this matchup "MANLY!" and get on with it. There's no reason to place one character over the other based on 'doing whatever to win' because if you're playing a Falcon-Ganon matchup, you're not to think about playing to win, you're going to think about how rediculously awesome these two characters are.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@Clai: I'll post so you could make your reply in another post.

 

[Clai]

Power shielding is pretty easy to do, and you should be able to do it on reaction. I powershield a projectile loving Samus with ease, and at the amount and speed of her projectiles, it's harder than PSing Ganon's DTilt. So yeah, you should be able to PS DTilt on reaction. We're discussing each character on the top of the metagame.

LOL! Your comparison is completely ludicrous. Samus' projectiles are easy as cake to powershield because Samus and yourself to put up your shield. Unless you're talking about Samus shooting her gun right when she's at your face and even then I doubt the start-up on her projectile shooting is faster than 10-11 frames, since I have no problems powershielding any of my friend's Samus' projectiles as well.

My point was that many human beings don't have the physical capacity to see Ganon about to use D-tilt and press the button to shield fast enough since most people have about a 13-14 frame reaction speed. You would need very fast eyes to react that fast, and if you don't have that capability, you simply can't do it, even if you're at the top of the metagame.

and are Falcons not better off shielding the stomp on reaction?

I personally space my d-airs too high for other people to be shielding them because thunderstomp is simply terrible on block. I space them that way just in case Falcon wants to use some type of aerial approach and since you have no lag upon landing it's not like you're opening yourself that badly. Doing that is probably going to leave you open to getting grabbed or something like that, but it's better than thunderstomping their shield.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

LOL! Your comparison is completely ludicrous. Samus' projectiles are easy as cake to powershield because Samus and yourself to put up your shield. Unless you're talking about Samus shooting her gun right when she's at your face and even then I doubt the start-up on her projectile shooting is faster than 10-11 frames, since I have no problems powershielding any of my friend's Samus' projectiles as well.

My point was that many human beings don't have the physical capacity to see Ganon about to use D-tilt and press the button to shield fast enough since most people have about a 13-14 frame reaction speed. You would need very fast eyes to react that fast, and if you don't have that capability, you simply can't do it, even if you're at the top of the metagame.

I personally space my d-airs too high for other people to be shielding them because thunderstomp is simply terrible on block. I space them that way just in case Falcon wants to use some type of aerial approach and since you have no lag upon landing it's not like you're opening yourself that badly. Doing that is probably going to leave you open to getting grabbed or something like that, but it's better than thunderstomping their shield.

LOL! Your comparison is completely ludicrous. Samus' projectiles are easy as cake to powershield because Samus and yourself to put up your shield. Unless you're talking about Samus shooting her gun right when she's at your face and even then I doubt the start-up on her projectile shooting is faster than 10-11 frames, since I have no problems powershielding any of my friend's Samus' projectiles as well.

Her projectiles (this includes ZAir) come at you one after another, the gap in between them is less than 11 frames of start-up (most of the time). But yes, you'll be able to tell that projectiles are coming right at your after one another (obviously), but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

My point was that many human beings don't have the physical capacity to see Ganon about to use D-tilt and press the button to shield fast enough since most people have about a 13-14 frame reaction speed. You would need very fast eyes to react that fast, and if you don't have that capability, you simply can't do it, even if you're at the top of the metagame.

lol. Yes we do. 11 frames of start-up give you more than enough time for a perfect-shield, you could power-shield 3-4 frames jab on reaction, and I've seen it be done.

When else can Ganon use DTilt other than when he's right infront of him to force an approach? He can't. And, you'll never see a Falcon just standing there right infront you to be DTilted, you'd see them pressuring you with their faster moves, all of which will beat DTilt's start-up lag.

I personally space my d-airs too high for other people to be shielding them because thunderstomp is simply terrible on block. I space them that way just in case Falcon wants to use some type of aerial approach and since you have no lag upon landing it's not like you're opening yourself that badly. Doing that is probably going to leave you open to getting grabbed or something like that, but it's better than thunderstomping their shield.

Wait, what? Do you mean you space your DAirs high on SH? Cause that's not possible, there's a certain height it could only go. FH's DAirs could be avoided ON reaction, that was the point I made in my last point, I didn't talk about shield contact.

 

[Clai]

Her projectiles (this includes ZAir) come at you one after another, the gap in between them is less than 11 frames of start-up (most of the time). But yes, you'll be able to tell that projectiles are coming right at your after one another (obviously), but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

My point is that it's easier to anticipate Samus' projectiles, including her Z-air, than it is to anticipate Ganon's dtilt. With Samus, your reaction will be "she's far away from me, Samus will probably shoot a projectile at me," which will make it easier for you to have your guard up, because what happens when you mess up, you get hit by a Z-air for 7% damage (You should be cautious enough to not get hit by a fully-charged blast)? With Ganon, it's harder to guess what he'll do, because he can either try to space you and be cautious or he can go out and approach you, and if you predict wrong you either get outspaced or Ganon approaches you and you're in for a world of hurt.

lol. Yes we do. 11 frames of start-up give you more than enough time for a perfect-shield, you could power-shield 3-4 frames jab on reaction, and I've seen it be done.

People do not have 3-4 frames of reaction time, heck you can't even push the shoulder button down in 3-4 frames. They probably anticipated that a jab is coming and made it appear that they did it on reaction, but it's all about anticipation. If you can anticipate that Ganon is going to d-tilt you, then you have a better chance of powershielding it, but you can't go in blindly and then be quick enough to press the shield button when Ganon's using a 10-11 frame attack just like that. It's physically impossible.

When else can Ganon use DTilt other than when he's right infront of him to force an approach? He can't. And, you'll never see a Falcon just standing there right infront you to be DTilted, you'd see them pressuring you with their faster moves, all of which will beat DTilt's start-up lag.

I never said that you should use D-tilt to force an approach, that was someone else. What I said was basically what you said- that Falcon isn't going to be just standing there trying to powershield your moves on reaction, they'll try to pressure you. D-tilt is better used when Falcon lands in front of you and doesn't have the space to shield out of a dash.

Wait, what? Do you mean you space your DAirs high on SH? Cause that's not possible, there's a certain height it could only go. FH's DAirs could be avoided ON reaction, that was the point I made in my last point, I didn't talk about shield contact.

I said full-hop d-airs, and yes they're easier to avoid on reaction, but my point was that I'd rather miss a d-air than have one shielded because shielding d-air leaves Ganon open to a wide variety of punishment while missing leaves a smaller and much more manageable window. If you're going to get punished, you might as well try to mitigate the damage as much as possible and try to look for openings that you can use to **** Falcon.

 

[Swoops]

Her projectiles (this includes ZAir) come at you one after another, the gap in between them is less than 11 frames of start-up (most of the time). But yes, you'll be able to tell that projectiles are coming right at your after one another (obviously), but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

Samus' projectiles are easy to powershield because not only do they have 23 frames of start up time, but also because they're projectiles >.<. They travel and last a hell of a lot longer than actual moves. It's ridiculous comparing powrshielding moves to PSing projectiles.

lol. Yes we do. 11 frames of start-up give you more than enough time for a perfect-shield, you could power-shield 3-4 frames jab on reaction, and I've seen it be done.

Lol...what? That is completely insane if you're being serious...are you being serious? Not only is that well below the average smashers reaction, that faster than any reaction any human being has EVER had. Do you have robots programed to play smash for you? Even ganon's d-tilt is below an average person's reaction. You are so confusing reaction with anticipation. If you honestly think that 3-4 frame moves can be PSed on reaction, then the Falcon match up shouldn't be hard at all, since we can PS the jabs he throws at us -_-.

When else can Ganon use DTilt other than when he's right infront of him to force an approach? He can't. And, you'll never see a Falcon just standing there right infront you to be DTilted, you'd see them pressuring you with their faster moves, all of which will beat DTilt's start-up lag.

Lots of times, seeing as how Ganon can d-tilt falcon out of many short hop approaches. Besides, the cap's moves aren't amazingly fast. In fact, most of his moves are the exact same speed as Ganon's, and Ganon has a bucket load of priority on each of his.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

My point is that it's easier to anticipate Samus' projectiles, including her Z-air, than it is to anticipate Ganon's dtilt. With Samus, your reaction will be "she's far away from me, Samus will probably shoot a projectile at me," which will make it easier for you to have your guard up, because what happens when you mess up, you get hit by a Z-air for 7% damage (You should be cautious enough to not get hit by a fully-charged blast)? With Ganon, it's harder to guess what he'll do, because he can either try to space you and be cautious or he can go out and approach you, and if you predict wrong you either get outspaced or Ganon approaches you and you're in for a world of hurt.

Yeah, but my point is that you'll be able to shield it on "reaction", it's still possible to even if you don't anticipate the move. You're making it sound like DTilt is very easy to land, when it isn't. If DTilt is as easy to land as you're saying it is, then Falcon should be jabbing us every other second of the game.


People do not have 3-4 frames of reaction time, heck you can't even push the shoulder button down in 3-4 frames. They probably anticipated that a jab is coming and made it appear that they did it on reaction, but it's all about anticipation.

Yeah, you're right.


I never said that you should use D-tilt to force an approach, that was someone else. What I said was basically what you said- that Falcon isn't going to be just standing there trying to powershield your moves on reaction, they'll try to pressure you. D-tilt is better used when Falcon lands in front of you and doesn't have the space to shield out of a dash.

That was basically what I've been trying to say. How does that make DTilt so good in this match-up? Why exactly do you think this match-up's a neutral?

I said full-hop d-airs, and yes they're easier to avoid on reaction, but my point was that I'd rather miss a d-air than have one shielded because shielding d-air leaves Ganon open to a wide variety of punishment while missing leaves a smaller and much more manageable window. If you're going to get punished, you might as well try to mitigate the damage as much as possible and try to look for openings that you can use to **** Falcon.

Missing a DAir also gets Ganon punished, not as bad, but it does.

Samus' projectiles are easy to powershield because not only do they have 23 frames of start up time, but also because they're projectiles >.<. They travel and last a hell of a lot longer than actual moves. It's ridiculous comparing powrshielding moves to PSing projectiles.



Lol...what? That is completely insane if you're being serious...are you being serious? Not only is that well below the average smashers reaction, that faster than any reaction any human being has EVER had. Do you have robots programed to play smash for you? Even ganon's d-tilt is below an average person's reaction. You are so confusing reaction with anticipation. If you honestly think that 3-4 frame moves can be PSed on reaction, then the Falcon match up shouldn't be hard at all, since we can PS the jabs he throws at us -_-.

Yeah, I was wrong, I basically meant what Clai described.


Lots of times, seeing as how Ganon can d-tilt falcon out of many short hop approaches. Besides, the cap's moves aren't amazingly fast. In fact, most of his moves are the exact same speed as Ganon's, and Ganon has a bucket load of priority on each of his.

DTilt stops SH approaches? I've yet to see that happen, you out of all people should know this. Having 2 fast moves > not having any at all. Priority doesn't really matter much if you can't use it properly.

Replies in bolded green.

 

[Z1GMA]

Besides, the cap's moves aren't amazingly fast. In fact, most of his moves are the exact same speed as Ganon's

That's true.
However... The moves that Falcon has, that actually are faster than Ganon's, more than makes up for those other 'Low priority + Ganon-fast-moves' that he has.
Especially is this match-up.

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

Kalm, you make it sound like if Ganon doesn't have anything on Falcon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

That's true.
However... The moves that Falcon has, that actually are faster than Ganon's, more than makes up for those other 'Low priority + Ganon-fast-moves' that he has.
Especially is this match-up.

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

Kalm, you make it sound like if Ganon doesn't have anything on Falcon.

45-55 Falcon's advantage is neutral.

 

[Clai]

That was basically what I've been trying to say. How does that make DTilt so good in this match-up? Why exactly do you think this match-up's a neutral?

I think this match-up is 50-50 because Falcon doesn't have any way to force Ganon inside him (either by superior range or a prokectile), nor does he have the maneuverability to force Ganon into any significant frame traps. Falcon's either going to commit to an approach or commit to non-approaching, both of which don't cause serious problems for Ganon. Yes, Falcon will have an easier time approaching/punishing because of his jab and superior ground speed, but it does not offset the fact that Ganon's damage potential far, far out-does Falcon's. Off-stage, it's a similar story- Falcon has the flubbed knee and Ganon has the better tipman, and both recoveries are pretty easy to intercept.

And I never said that D-tilt was a match-up breaking move. I just said it has its purposes, especially out of a Flame Choke. Other people were talking about Ganon's D-tilt, but I was just saying that you can't powershield it on reaction unless you're expecting Ganon to use it, in which case, you're probably using the move wrong.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I think this match-up is 50-50 because Falcon doesn't have any way to force Ganon inside him (either by superior range or a prokectile), nor does he have the maneuverability to force Ganon into any significant frame traps. Falcon's either going to commit to an approach or commit to non-approaching, both of which don't cause serious problems for Ganon. Yes, Falcon will have an easier time approaching/punishing because of his jab and superior ground speed, but it does not offset the fact that Ganon's damage potential far, far out-does Falcon's. Off-stage, it's a similar story- Falcon has the flubbed knee and Ganon has the better tipman, and both recoveries are pretty easy to intercept.

And I never said that D-tilt was a match-up breaking move. I just said it has its purposes, especially out of a Flame Choke. Other people were talking about Ganon's D-tilt, but I was just saying that you can't powershield it on reaction unless you're expecting Ganon to use it, in which case, you're probably using the move wrong.

Falcon has a better approach, better approach options, can pressure our shield more, and actually punish all our moves out of shield and out of spotdodge.

The thing is, who ever approaches first and faster in this match-up technically has the upper hand. You'll have Falcon all over you during the entire match, and the same can't be said for Ganondorf. That is what you DON'T want.

Edit:

Other people were talking about Ganon's D-tilt, but I was just saying that you can't powershield it on reaction unless you're expecting Ganon to use it, in which case, you're probably using the move wrong.

I still disagree. DTilt is powershieldable on reaction.

 

[Clai]

Falcon has a better approach, better approach options, can pressure our shield more, and actually punish all our moves out of shield and out of spotdodge.

The thing is, who ever approaches first and faster in this match-up technically has the upper hand. You'll have Falcon all over you during the entire match, and the same can't be said for Ganondorf. That is what you DON'T want.

I don't really care if Falcon is over me racking up 60% damage over the course of 30 seconds when Ganon can turn around and put out the same amount of damage in 10. Falcon's going to be over you because he has the better approach. Fine. Ganon sucks at approaching anyway. What Falcon doesn't have is the ability to significantly trap Ganon or any method that overwhelmingly reduces Ganon's options. This means that Ganon being able to do a significant amount of damage in a short amount of time is going to matter far more in this matchup than Ganon's other matchups.

Edit:

I still disagree. DTilt is powershieldable on reaction.

I don't think there's way to conclude this, because this is all based on what people believe the average human reaction time is. You say it's 10 frames, I say it's 13 frames (which I found by a little searching of the web). I can't really respond in any other fashion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Kalm, seriously, you're not thinking this out. 10 frame attacks are among the hardest ones to powershield at all.

The window for PSing is only 3 frames as I'm told, and reaction time is around 13 frames.

The thing about 10 frame attacks is if you are reacting to them inhumanly fast or playing conservatively, you're probably going to block BEFORE you get to powershield them.

And then otherwise with normal reaction time, you'll probably be getting hit before you can powershield.

Falcon really doesn't approach much better when most of his approaches are counterable on reaction. He does have random stuff that is safe on block that should usually be outprioritized, and most importantly, he can't actually kill with anything that is safe.

Ganondorf does have a few safe things against Falcon. B-air, and retreating Thunderstorm. Falcon is tall enough to be B-aired safely, and retreating Thunderstorm in general is not something you want to approach when you have low priority like Falcon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't really care if Falcon is over me racking up 60% damage over the course of 30 seconds when Ganon can turn around and put out the same amount of damage in 10. Falcon's going to be over you because he has the better approach. Fine. Ganon sucks at approaching anyway. What Falcon doesn't have is the ability to significantly trap Ganon or any method that overwhelmingly reduces Ganon's options. This means that Ganon being able to do a significant amount of damage in a short amount of time is going to matter far more in this matchup than Ganon's other matchups.

His DThrow, jab, and Ganon being above him all limit Ganon.

I don't think there's way to conclude this, because this is all based on what people believe the average human reaction time is. You say it's 10 frames, I say it's 13 frames (which I found by a little searching of the web). I can't really respond in any other fashion.

Fair enough.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Fun fact: The average human reaction time is somewhere around .23 seconds, or about 14 frames. Knock off this "you can powershield everything Ganon does on reaction" nonsense, because it's simply not true.

Sorry Clai, issue there, most smashers are 10-11 frames equvilent, and at the top of the metagame, it's 8 frames equivilent.

Gamers are just better then most people in terms of reaction time.


MY reaction time is 10 frames, so it's far from unusual.

No, you could run up and dash grab OR run up and dash attack.

Ok, then we need a frame data check, this isn't about trust this is about precision.

Hitbox being low has nothing to do with anything, and getting a properly spaced DTilt isn't going to happen especially if the Ganon's going to try to force a approach after the shield hit. Falcon's able to perfect shield it.

Didn't I explain before, in the quoted post, Falcon's shield takes 3 frames to encompass his entire body, I don't even think Ganon's dtilt is capable of hitting the frame 1 shield.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Kalm, seriously, you're not thinking this out. 10 frame attacks are among the hardest ones to powershield at all.

I'm pretty sure I am.

Falcon really doesn't approach much better when most of his approaches are counterable on reaction.

Falcon doesn't have to approach by randomly throwing out attacks, you're forgetting that he's also a bait and trap character, though with his maneuverability he has a much easier time baiting and trapping than Ganon.

He does have random stuff that is safe on block that should usually be outprioritized, and most importantly, he can't actually kill with anything that is safe.

Read above, Falcons won't randomly throw out their moves to get outprioritized. CF has BAir (which is quite safe to just throw out) which could safely kill, and Ganon doesn't have much safe kill moves either.

Ganondorf does have a few safe things against Falcon. B-air, and retreating Thunderstorm. Falcon is tall enough to be B-aired safely, and retreating Thunderstorm in general is not something you want to approach when you have low priority like Falcon.

BAir is safe how? On shield it has some push back, but that's about it. Retreating thunderstorm isn't safe at all.

 

[Player-3]

who cares if dtilt is powershieldable on block

no falcon should approach ANYONE with a dash shield
the whole dtilt thing is practically mute

 

[A2ZOMG]

BAir is safe how? On shield it has some push back, but that's about it. Retreating thunderstorm isn't safe at all.

B-air autocanceled is able to hit Falcon. That has a -7 frame advantage, meaning it is COMPLETELY safe on block. It takes 7 frames to drop shield, and Falcon's shieldgrab has no chance of punishing this. His Up-B out of shield has range, but takes about 20ish frames to use, meaning it can be dodged on reaction.

Retreating Thunderstorm is very safe, because the point is, you are retreating with it. Your opponent's mobility advantage is significantly lower approaching when you retreat with this move, AND it actually becomes safe on block if it gets shielded while you retreat.

If Falcon tries to approach with an attack, 97% of the time, it either gets blocked, or it gets outprioritized by D-air as long as you retreat.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

B-air autocanceled is able to hit Falcon. That has a -7 frame advantage, meaning it is COMPLETELY safe on block. It takes 7 frames to drop shield, and Falcon's shieldgrab has no chance of punishing this. His Up-B out of shield has range, but takes about 20ish frames to use, meaning it can be dodged on reaction.

Retreating Thunderstorm is very safe, because the point is, you are retreating with it. Your opponent's mobility advantage is significantly lower approaching when you retreat with this move, AND it actually becomes safe on block if it gets shielded while you retreat.

If Falcon tries to approach with an attack, 97% of the time, it either gets blocked, or it gets outprioritized by D-air as long as you retreat.

BAir's only safe on block, other than that it's a very unsafe move.

Retreating thunderstorm is NOT safe. Excluding the 7 frames of jump lag, DAir starts at frame 20-21, ends at frame 44, and even the autocancel version has some landing lag. That gives Falcon enough time (35 or so frames of lag) for a run dash grab or dash attack.

If Falcon tries to approach with an attack, 97% of the time, it either gets blocked, or it gets outprioritized by D-air as long as you retreat.

Same could be said for Ganon.

 

[Zeallyx]

imo falcon vs ganon is 45-55 Ganon's advantage.

Due to his side b->Dtilt->Dtilt->Side b shenanigans, and his overal side b combo's falcon falls victim to.

Also his ability to turn the match around with an offstage side b matters quite some in the falcon vs ganon matchup.

45-55 Ganon, if it isnt 40-60 Ganon.

Edit: A2ZOMG is kind of a douche imo.

But my point still stands.

 

[Player-3]

imo falcon vs ganon is 45-55 Ganon's advantage.

Due to his side b->Dtilt->Dtilt->Side b shenanigans, and his overal side b combo's falcon falls victim to.

Also his ability to turn the match around with an offstage side b matters quite some in the falcon vs ganon matchup.

45-55 Ganon, if it isnt 40-60 Ganon.

Edit: A2ZOMG is kind of a douche imo.

But my point still stands.

sorry

but no
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