"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Z1GMA]

Falcon only lacks power and weight.

Falcon doesn't lack weight. He's "heavier" than Ganon.

But... Being heavy (verticaly) isn't always a good thing; especially not for Falcon.
Falcon's "heavyness" is the reason why attacks like our Ftilt sends him at a lower trajectory than normal.
He won't fly high, but he will fly far. In other words, his weight becomes his weakness.

Then we have characters like D3 which never flies far OR high ^^J

 

[Sovereign]

Falcon doesn't lack weight. He's "heavier" than Ganon.

But... Being heavy (verticaly) isn't always a good thing; especially not for Falcon.
Falcon's "heavyness" is the reason why attacks like our Ftilt sends him at a lower trajectory than normal.
He won't fly high, but he will fly far. In other words, his strenght becomes his weakness.

Then we have characters like D3 which never flies far ^^J

Ganon still kills Falcon faster, than Falcon does Ganon, so he does lack weight, imo. Getting Fsmashed at 80% is a done deal for Falcon, but that's not the case for Falcon's Fsmash on Ganon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Falcon doesn't lack weight. He's "heavier" than Ganon.

But... Being heavy (verticaly) isn't always a good thing; especially not for Falcon.
Falcon's "heavyness" is the reason why attacks like our Ftilt sends him at a lower trajectory than normal.
He won't fly high, but he will fly far. In other words, his strenght becomes his weakness.

Then we have characters like D3 which never flies far ^^J

Ganon's only a tad bit heavier.

and by "a tad", I mean a tad. Ganon will survive attacks 2% longer than Falcon horizontally, Falcon will survive attacks 1% longer than Ganon vertically. Though, if you include their size, recovery, and combo resistance, I'd say Falcon is heavier.

Ganon still kills Falcon faster, than Falcon does Ganon, so he does lack weight, imo. Getting Fsmashed at 80% is a done deal for Falcon, but that's not the case for Falcon's Fsmash on Ganon.

Getting F-Smashes in the first place are rare, so yeah.

 

[Sovereign]

Getting F-Smashes in the first place are rare, so yeah.

True enough. I'm just using it as a marker, since both have acceptional knockback.

Also, Falcon can always SHAD and fake Ganon into opening up, allowing Falcon to punish Ganon for falling for the feint.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon still kills Falcon faster, than Falcon does Ganon, so he does lack weight, imo.

That's what I'm sayin'.
You see, we Ganons don't kill our prey upwards, cause we use our Dair for damage racking (basicly).
We kill you at the sides of the stage (or below).
(DA can be saved for star KO's Vs light characters, though.)

Falcon's vertical resistance, which is good, helps us to send him at a lower trajectory when we Ftilt/Jab him over the edge - putting him in a 'harder to recovery from-place'

And, luckily, Falcon's horizontinal resistance isn't nearly as good as his vertical.
This makes it even more effective

Sadly, we lose our DA as an star-KO option because of his vertical wheight ;\

EDIT:: Note: Falcon's Utilt can sometimes put us in a 'hard to recovery from-place' because of the same reason (our Weight Attributes).
His knee too; when he actually does land it. And at very low %'s

 

[A2ZOMG]

The only thing that puts this slightly in Falcon's favor and makes it annoying as well is the fact that up close, Ganon can do absolutely nothing to counter Falcon's jab, and with his speed he really doesn't have trouble getting in close. Ganon will kill and gimp Falcon a million times easier when it comes down to it, though.

You can F-smash semi-indiscriminately if he's coming close. It will beat his Jab, as the leanback will let you dodge his Jab, and then the counterattack will own him. His N-air also pretty much can't challenge F-smash.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You can F-smash semi-indiscriminately if he's coming close. It will beat his Jab, as the leanback will let you dodge his Jab, and then the counterattack will own him. His N-air also pretty much can't challenge F-smash.

FSmash is too slow for that, and what about all the things I've stated? What can Ganon do about that?

That's what I'm sayin'.
You see, we Ganons don't kill our prey upwards, cause we use our Dair for damage racking (basicly).
We kill you at the sides of the stage (or below).
(DA can be saved for star KO's Vs light characters, though.)

Falcon's vertical resistance, which is good, helps us to send him at a lower trajectory when we Ftilt/Jab him over the edge - putting him in a 'harder to recovery from-place'

And, luckily, Falcon's horizontinal resistance isn't nearly as good as his vertical.
This makes it even more effective

Sadly, we lose our DA as an star-KO option because of his vertical wheight ;\

There's a 2% difference.

Edit: Match-up chart updated.

 

[A2ZOMG]

FSmash is too slow for that, and what about all the things I've stated? What can Ganon do about that?

The leanback starts up very fast, and that's all that matters.

 

[Sovereign]

That's what I'm sayin'.
You see, we Ganons don't kill our prey upwards, cause we use our Dair for damage racking (basicly).
We kill you at the sides of the stage (or below).
(DA can be saved for star KO's Vs light characters, though.)

Falcon's vertical resistance, which is good, helps us to send him at a lower trajectory when we Ftilt/Jab him over the edge - putting him in a 'harder to recovery from-place'

And, luckily, Falcon's horizontinal resistance isn't nearly as good as his vertical.
This makes it even more effective

Sadly, we lose our DA as an star-KO option because of his vertical wheight ;\

You've convinced me to lower my ratio to 45:55 Falcon, because I realized that Falcon has one Vertical Kill move, and it doesn't hit often. Ganon's got great horizontal resistance as you stated, but only with that can he attempt to last against Falcon. Falcon's an all around horizontal killer with his KoJ, Dsmash, Fsmash, Utilt, Uair, and even his UpB. He can push Ganon to the edge of stages, since he will most likely control the center, making it only that much easier to get the KO.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The leanback starts up very fast, and that's all that matters.

Falcon's not going to fall for a FSmash leanback more than once.

 

[Sovereign]

Falcon's not going to fall for a FSmash leanback more than once.

But every hit counts right? All you have to do is catch Falcon when he is in the ebb and flow of a jab. Jabbing and grabbing is like crack to Falcon mains. So it is actually possible to score the leanback feint more than once.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

But every hit counts right? All you have to do is catch Falcon when he is in the ebb and flow of a jab. Jabbing and grabbing is like crack to Falcon mains. So it is actually possible to score the leanback feint more than once.

That's only possible if the Falcon does the 3rd and 4th hit(s) of his jab, which he won't always do.

And Ganon can't do a FSmash unless he's on the ground, which he won't always be.

 

[Z1GMA]

There's a 2% difference.

Yeah, but Falcon's & Ganon's attacks doesn't have equal knockback, so those %'s doesn't mean that much.

Though Falcon's DJ covers up a bit for the "high loss".

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yeah, but Falcon's & Ganon's attacks doesn't have equal knockback.

Though Falcon's DJ covers up a bit for the "high loss".

There's a difference between weight, KO power, and survivability.

 

[Darky-Sama]

45:55 seems reasonable enough.

Ganondorf really shouldn't have as much trouble with this match-up as I said yesterday. The TL;DR in it was supposed to indicate some sarcasm, since the match-up is so horrifically close. But to be honest, now that I'm actually thinking, I'm withdrawing my conclusion. I actually think the match-up is a bit in Ganondorfs favor, if it's not even.

Yes, Falcon can wreck Ganondorf while he's off the stage, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that Ganondorf, in return, can slaughter Falcon with his down air if it's the other way around.

Falcon can follow up on Ganondorf with the stupid attacks; mixtures of jab canceling and fast fall first hit neutral airs more precisely, but that still doesn't guarantee that he'll actually be able to KO or gimp Ganondorf. Compared to Ganon, Falcon just doesn't have it easy when it comes to killing.

Then, the main problem is how Falcon takes so long to build up damage. All these 'combos' you can do with him usually don't provide over 20% of damage, even if you do finish them off. Which they also give a chance for the opponent to punish him at the end, which Ganondorf can do oh-so well if Falcon slips up even once.


It's kinda sad, I didn't even think of those possibilities until I played Dragoomba to refresh my memory.

If we are keeping it in Falcon's favor, I'd say it's only by a very slim edge.
If not, it should be 50:50.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

45:55 seems reasonable enough.

Ganondorf really shouldn't have as much trouble with this match-up as I said yesterday. The TL;DR in it was supposed to indicate some sarcasm, since the match-up is so horrifically close. But to be honest, now that I'm actually thinking, I'm withdrawing my conclusion. I actually think the match-up is a bit in Ganondorfs favor, if it's not even.

Yes, Falcon can wreck Ganondorf while he's off the stage, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that Ganondorf, in return, can slaughter Falcon with his down air if it's the other way around.

Falcon can follow up on Ganondorf with the stupid attacks; mixtures of jab canceling and fast fall first hit neutral airs more precisely, but that still doesn't guarantee that he'll actually be able to KO or gimp Ganondorf. Compared to Ganon, Falcon just doesn't have it easy when it comes to killing.

Then, the main problem is how Falcon takes so long to build up damage. All these 'combos' you can do with him usually don't provide over 20% of damage, even if you do finish them off. Which they also give a chance for the opponent to punish him at the end, which Ganondorf can do oh-so well if Falcon slips up even once.


It's kinda sad, I didn't even think of those possibilities until I played Dragoomba to refresh my memory.

If we are keeping it in Falcon's favor, I'd say it's only by a very slim edge.
If not, it should be 50:50.

Falcon can follow up on Ganondorf with the stupid attacks; mixtures of jab canceling and fast fall first hit neutral airs more precisely, but that still doesn't guarantee that he'll actually be able to KO or gimp Ganondorf. Compared to Ganon, Falcon just doesn't have it easy when it comes to killing.

Falcon can punish Ganon with his knee if he misses (or if Falcon avoids) his Gerudo, which is used ALOT, and that's an incredibly fast way to kill Ganon.

but that still doesn't guarantee that he'll actually be able to KO or gimp Ganondorf.

I thought I explained this? Falcons should always be able to gimp Ganon off-stage by just intercepting his recovery. If that doesn't work, flub knee > UAir.

Then, the main problem is how Falcon takes so long to build up damage. All these 'combos' you can do with him usually don't provide over 20% of damage, even if you do finish them off. Which they also give a chance for the opponent to punish him at the end, which Ganondorf can do oh-so well if Falcon slips up even once.

Look at the first stock of this match. Both Superboom and Koskinator exchanged an even, or pretty close, amount of hits (one after another), and both were at the same percent before Koskinator killed him.

 

[Sovereign]

45:55 seems reasonable enough.

Ganondorf really shouldn't have as much trouble with this match-up as I said yesterday. The TL;DR in it was supposed to indicate some sarcasm, since the match-up is so horrifically close. But to be honest, now that I'm actually thinking, I'm withdrawing my conclusion. I actually think the match-up is a bit in Ganondorfs favor, if it's not even.

Yes, Falcon can wreck Ganondorf while he's off the stage, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that Ganondorf, in return, can slaughter Falcon with his down air if it's the other way around.

Falcon can follow up on Ganondorf with the stupid attacks; mixtures of jab canceling and fast fall first hit neutral airs more precisely, but that still doesn't guarantee that he'll actually be able to KO or gimp Ganondorf. Compared to Ganon, Falcon just doesn't have it easy when it comes to killing.

Then, the main problem is how Falcon takes so long to build up damage. All these 'combos' you can do with him usually don't provide over 20% of damage, even if you do finish them off. Which they also give a chance for the opponent to punish him at the end, which Ganondorf can do oh-so well if Falcon slips up even once.


It's kinda sad, I didn't even think of those possibilities until I played Dragoomba to refresh my memory.

If we are keeping it in Falcon's favor, I'd say it's only by a very slim edge.
If not, it should be 50:50.

Two characters that are not the same should never run 50:50. I personally believe 50:50 is only to be used when it's a ditto.

Falcon's hits do 10%+ and combos will rack up about 30%-40%. Ganon will most likely never control the center stage, where his surviving is at its peak. Falcon will pressure him to the edge and get him in a position where a horizontal KO is easier.

It's in Falcon's favor, period.

EDIT: Notice how Kosk never approached, but capitalized on Boom's mistakes. Notice how Boom capitalized on Kosk's missed punish attempts. Boom controlled the ebb and flow, but made too many mistakes, leading to the WizKick KO.

 

[Darky-Sama]

To Ray_Kalm & Sacr3d S3raph1m:

Yes, that's what I stated in my first post.

This match-up really all depends if the Falcon knows how to stay on the Ganondorf without getting punished. Which, it's Falcon, that's not really too hard for him in this match-up since his speed and lagless attacks keep him pretty safe.

Best thing Ganondorf has that can punish Falcon is a shield grab.
Ganondorf's DAIR is the only other problem for Falcon.

 

[Sovereign]

To Ray_Kalm & Sacr3d S3raph1m:

Yes, that's what I stated in my first post.

This match-up really all depends if the Falcon knows how to stay on the Ganondorf without getting punished. Which, it's Falcon, that's not really too hard for him in this match-up since his speed and lagless attacks keep him pretty safe.

Best thing Ganondorf has that can punish Falcon is a shield grab.
Ganondorf's DAIR is the only other problem for Falcon.

If Falcon's not under it, UpB the Dair, or Utilt it, a RAR'd Bair works as well.

 

[Z1GMA]

There's a difference between weight, KO power, and survivability.

That's why those "2%" doesn't matter that much; since these two characters are, like you said, different.

EDIT: Shall we move on among the rest of the characters ?

 

[Darky-Sama]

If Falcon's not under it, UpB the Dair, or Utilt it, a RAR'd Bair works as well.

DAIR can be punished with a Reverse Stutterstep Forward Smash if you see the Ganon short hopping. Which is usually what I do when I see Ganondorf going into the air. Luckily for Falcon, Ganondorf's short hop still leaves forward smashing him pretty easy if you direct it upwards.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

EDIT: Shall we move on among the rest of the characters ?

Donkey Kong. Someone tell their boards.

 

[ook]

I love the Ganon/DK matchup. It's just... a brawl.
With mindgames


Don't know how to really describe it though... or whose advantage it is. But it's fun

 

[Ripple]

70-30/65-35 DK's advantage.

DK is bigger, faster, stronger than you, (and the first member of the DK crew. HUH!)

DK can make a wall of bairs that you can't make your way through. tilts, Down b, UP-b. its like you can't get through! (but you can actually, its just super hard)

DK is a monster version of Ganon and better in every way.

I'll write more later need to get back to work

 

[Z1GMA]

Facing a really good DK is tough.
He's the type of character that 'beats us in everything' - Range, Mobility, Attacking Speed, Recovery, Weight (Both verticaly and horizontinaly), Grab Game, OoS-options, and even Power.

Did I forget Something? '_'

Priority Vs Priority is somewhat equal, at least.

@DK Mains: How long can you CG Ganon? 30% + additional attack(s)?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Facing a really good DK is tough.
He the type of character that 'beats us in everything' - Range, Mobility, Attacking Speed, Recovery, Weight (Both verticaly and horizontinaly), Grab Game, OoS-options, and even Power.

Did I forget Something? '_'

Priority Vs Priority is somewhat equal, at least.

Basically. I'd give it a 65-35, just because stomp ***** him hard.

 

[Z1GMA]

- I'd actually say 30 : 70

 

[Ray_Kalm]

- I'd actually say 30 : 70

Really? This match-up's bad, but not that bad. Ganon does have a few real good things going for him.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Yeah, Ray's right.

Downair and the Side+b -> Dtilt/Jab make the match-up a bit easier for Ganon.

35:65 to 40:60 - DK, seems about right.
But its best to wait for the rest of the DK board members give their feedback. rofl

 

[Z1GMA]

Really? This match-up's bad, but not that bad. Ganon does have a few real good things going for him.

Ye, well... It's not just those things: Attacking Speed, Power and Mobility.
It's his hella good range on top of all that.

And DK, more than most chars, can be really nasty when it comes to taking advantage of our RCO-lag ;\

 

[PhantomX]

Something that I found on accident that's nice vs DK is dropping from the ledge as they start Up B, and then do DJ + upair to hit under their arms, and then you up B to the ledge quick so you can follow up. Can set up for fairs/dairs depending on the height they went to.

I also think 30:70 is overrating it in DKs favor.

 

[Z1GMA]

40:60 - DK, seems about right.

That's the same ratio that you gave Falcon Vs Ganon '_'

 

[Darky-Sama]

That's the same ratio that you gave Falcon Vs Ganon '_'

Yeah, I know, but it does seem logical.

70:30 is probably a better assumption though.
My knowledge on this match-up is a bit limited.
The only good DK that I've played with Ganondorf is 'ook'. lolol

Who wrecked my Ganondorf pretty hard. :/

 

[Sovereign]

You have to remember that Ganondorf's metagame, as Ray mentioned before is pure defense. Ganon should never, and I really mean never approach DK. DK should always be the one to approach Ganondorf, but Ganondorf shouldn't just sit there and do nothing. Ganondorf should at least AC his Uairs, making it somewhat difficult for DK to get in and do damage. DK's Ftilt and Dtilt will hurt.

Can Ganondorf utilize WizKick as an OoS? It has good knockback, and has horizontal knockback, and due to DK's weight, he'll either be teching or using a get-up attack.

Ganon needs to use Choke, and respond with Thunderstorm OoS, in this match-up the most. DK is fish bait. Ganon would have a field day when using those two moves properly, and effectively. DK's bigger, making him an easier target, and easier to combo. He can do the same to Ganon, but Ganon's defense will make that hard.

The biggest problem I see with DK is his muthereffin' super armor frames. UpB, B, and probably more I don't know of.

 

[PK-ow!]

How do you space in this matchup?

DK has such easy shield pressure. Ganon can't shield grab, and DKs bair is really versatile, so like, there's nothing DK could do that would count as screwing up.
Wizkick out of shield is impossible. Anything DK did that has enough lag for him not to block that, has enough shield stun to contradict that assumption.

Aside: Wizkick only hits people who dodge, or who whiff/mistime something. I don't know how that could happen OoS.​

Oh. MAybe you meant air wizkick. Well, same thing. DK's got reach. Quake wouldn't get him.


If Ganon ever does hit DK, you can do sweet stuff really easily. But in this matchup? Talking about that hit is like talking about hitting Olimar, Snake, or MK. For sufficiently good DKs.


In a sentence, DK covers amazing range around himself with low risk, in precisely a way that gimps up all of Ganon's ways of reaching. He really should - if he doesn't play suicidally - never let Ganon get things going. I don't see why playing a perfect good enough game, for DK's part, would be hard at all.

When Ganon does get going, it's one bair or one Dsmash away from getting combo'd (25%+) back into defensiveness.


I want to hear what makes Ray optimistic* about this matchup.


*relatively

 

[thexsunrosered]

Honestly, you HAVE to abuse Fair in this matchup. Its the only thing that can compete with bair spam, and it helps that its knockback is substantial. Also, remember that DK's grounded Upb can only move forward. NEVER let a DK pick YI, the slants give him invulnerability when coming from the ledge, so if you're stage striking neutrals, that should be your first, with (if applicable) lylat your second.

These are one of my personal favorite matchups as Ganon, because they're such an epic contest of power and strength, with either side being able to pull through.

On a side note, wizkick spike DKs upb for lulz and biscuits.

 

[Superspright]

Choking donkey kong is very easy. And since you can slap him out of it it can push him off the edge a lot. Even at low percents. Or if they do not know the matchup at 0% you can easily choke > slap > choke > slap again. If they don't dodge the second choke. It's easy damage.

I don't think this matchup is half as bad as you are all saying. It just requires a hell of a lot of patience. DK isn't like other characters where if you're a little sloppy you can still live to 150%+ percent. DK will kill you extremely low. So, avoiding his plethora of KO moves is paramount to survival [which is the case in any matchup, but very much when it comes to DK or D3]. His gimping ability is probably about the same honestly. We have tipmans, dair spikes, wizkick spikes, ganoncides, etc. DK has his fair, dair, bair, and side-b. The matchup I think is pretty close, but probably leans toward DK.

Whenever I play a DK I like to do full jump stomps. With good spacing you can hit him with it and usually not get punished. But, I don't think I have ever played an epicly good DK. Just a few good ones.

I'd say the most important part of this matchup is the choke. Since DK has massive lag on all of his smashes it should always be an opportunity to do SOMETHING to him. Fortunately for DK and not for us, he can kill in the air pretty easily as well, which is where we suck. If you choke them right it will always put them off the stage. Don't ALWAYS go for the choke-slap either. I believe he can be stomp chased, and his getup attack is pretty cumbersome IIRC.

Like someone else said, fair is a godsend. Fair has a beautiful arch that with good spacing can reach over his attacks. But, his bair is a massive hitbox. I am not sure how I'd feel about trading hits with that if I make a mistake.

The matchup is hard. Just remember to hold up if he grabs you near the ledge. He'll probably be going for a cargo spike. But, I'd be more worried about being thrown UNDER the stage than anything.

To add, the aerudo is pretty viable. DK is so tall that aerudos can catch him if he's not RARing bairs into your face at the moment.

 

[Z1GMA]

Something that I found on accident that's nice vs DK is dropping from the ledge as they start Up B, and then do DJ + upair to hit under their arms

That's pretty simple, yet clever.
It should prove more effective than spiking him, at the right %.

 

[Acedude55]

Off topic.

But please for the love of god change the Oli/IC's matchup.

0-100 isn't possible.

 

[SaltyKracka]

It is, and versus a decent ICs, is that as well. Oli isn't 100-0, but it's close enough that no Ganon should ever be winning unless the Oli is sandbagging. And even then...