The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[BentoBox]

Actually, this just in.
In order to counter this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCFwdQE6uP4&feature=related
I actually went out and had SECKS. With a girl. Girl being the operative word.

Brawl peach is left to the Overweight African americans. Leave it to us to play her.
SOON I WLL TAKE EDREEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ MUHAHAHA.

And brawl peaches are Straight.

stop trying to get into my pants GofG =D

Looks like I need to gain some weight :[

 

[NinjaLink]

i never said ban or not ban MK. It doesnt matter to me.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

Oh, then why did you even jump into the conversation? The conversation I was having with some guy who wasn't even you was about how he talked about how the fact that he and Casuals having less fun with Brawl now than before should somehow matter. Why even jump in with "It's a split among the top", because it's not relevant.

You're also contradicting yourself it does matter what 1000 bad people thing. The majority should rule in this situation.

Point out exactly where I contradict myself. Did I not say that the majority is not always right? How many of the people involved in the poll here on SWF, for example, do you think even know about which moves their characters have that go through the Tornado?

You also have absolutely no idea what my view is on this subject so please don't attempt to put words in my mouth.

Did I actually say that you're for the ban? I was arguing against what you wrote, nothing more, nothing less. I just happened to misread one of the sentences.

I personally understand the ban but am not for it. I think far too many people are complaining about something they can get around.

Then we're in agreement.

So you claim MK mains shouldn't have to change characters to play well? Well then it works out the same for all the people that have changed characters because they can't beat MK's or even went MK because they were sick of losing.

Meta Knight mainers shouldn't have to change mains if there is no good reason for them to be forced to. If Meta Knight does not deserve to be banned, banning him and forcing all Meta Knight players to switch mains would be unjustly punishing them. So what if others are switching to Meta Knight? If it ends up being proven that he isn't not banworthy, then they're not forced to at all, they're doing it because of a misguided belief.

There are plenty of valid reason for him to be banned, the question isn't that, it's whether or not it's too early or even necessary.

Why are you arguing against things I've never even mentioned in relation to you and that is actually things I fully agree with?!

Your arguments for 70:30 are ridiculous since that would basically mean he dominates every single character easily which would mean there would be NO tournaments won that weren't by MK.

Contrary to popular belief, 60:40 is in no way "dominating" and unreasonable unbeatable. Plently of other fighters have characters who 60:40 everyone else in the game without them being banned or even dominating tournaments.

If a ban were to take place it would have to be before he seems to be destroying people that bad.

Yes, but only if he's dominating because he's too good and not too popular (i.e. everyone good has switched to him).

You say things need to benefit the community and not any one person but you sound pretty one sided for yourself and top players or enlightened as you like to call yourself for some odd reason.

Wait... what? I don't even main Meta Knight. Banning him would in no way affect me as I play Zelda in tournaments and MMs, anyway.

And you're taking my words entirely out of context. It's not at all about benefitting the "more enlightened", it's about the fact that people who aren't knowledgeable enough have no place in this debate. People who just go "Lol, don't be a scrub. There was counters!" (anti-ban) and "Ban him now! That Tornado can't be beaten!" (pro-ban) are obviously so misguided and ignorant they have no place in this debate about whether or not he needs to be banned and their opinions should be ignored (since they're "wrong").

This was to refute "Well, look at this poll in which 1000+ have voted". Oh yeah? The majority of those have no clue what they're talking about. Their votes mean nothing.

There are far more low level players than top players and really, no one should be favored or cattered to but that's the reality.

The rules should be written to be the most Competitive and fair, no catering to anyone. Tell, what did I say in my previous post that in your head, somehow, translated into "They should cater to X people"?

The bulk of the community aren't great players. This ban needs to benefit the community and that can be decided PARTIALLY by majority rules and obviously by a decent margian.

No, it cannot. If the really good players can beat Meta Knight just fine, then it doesn't matter if the lesser skilled players cannot. They just have to get better.

Just because a character is easy to pick up and to win with at low levels doesn't mean they need to be banned if they aren't "too good". If they are, then ban them, no matter the difficulty to pick up. If they aren't leave them alone.

No, the majority isn't always right. It doesn't matter if a majority wants something if they are wrong.

 

[Natch]

Yuna, while this may seem unrelated, have you actually been to the U.S. before?

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, while this may seem unrelated, have you actually been to the U.S. before?

Yes. I have. There was pie.

 

[Natch]

Yes. I have. There was pie.

Cool. Knowing that, was it for an extended period of time?

 

[Yuna]

Cool. Knowing that, was it for an extended period of time?

Approximately 45 days.

 

[Fatmanonice]

There are those weird people who like it. Is it fine in those instances?

You always came off to me as someone who likes bondage. *runs away laughing manically*

 

[Atomsk_92]

Lets all go to, Gullah Gullah Island XD

i support not banning mk what i've said before XD

 

[Yuna]

You always came off to me as someone who likes bondage. *runs away laughing manically*

Bondage is boring. I want my hands free. And I want my victims' hands free as well.

 

[Overswarm]

What the ****

 

[Atomsk_92]

Bondage is boring. I want my hands free. And I want my victims' hands free as well.

that just made my day

 

[ProBrawler]

Gotta love that the last 8 posts or so don't even have the word "MK" in them. But anyway, at this point all we're doing in recycling arguments. I'm not seeing progress, evident in that almost everyone in essence still has the same view point as when they came in. We need something NEW to prove our point, since as of now it seems the mountain of evidence we already have isn't good enough.

Edit: Wait, one post does.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Bondage is boring. I want my hands free. And I want my victims' hands free as well.

So you admit to ****** people? O_o' No wonder you dropped my giant jar filled with over 100 bucks in quarters I gave to you as a peace offering and then told me to pick them up using a pair of tweezers. What was even worse was that we were stuck in an elevator at the time. I thought something was up when you started singing "Carmeldansen" and you asked me to do the the motions with my free hand.

What the ****

My thoughts exactly. This topic has pretty much been derailed, hasn't it?

 

[Fletch]

What the hell did I miss?

 

[Zankoku]

Clearly people are sayin' silly things in here.

Good thing it's an improvement from the general topic, ze.

 

[Yuna]

So you admit to ****** people? O_o' No wonder you dropped my giant jar filled with over 100 bucks in quarters I gave to you as a peace offering and then told me to pick them up using a pair of tweezers. What was even worse was that we were stuck in an elevator at the time. I thought something was up when you started singing "Carmeldansen" and you asked me to do the the motions with my free hand.

No, no, I don't ****. I seduce random straight guys with my trappiness. Seriously, I nail at least one per year without even trying.

 

[Fatmanonice]

No, no, I don't ****. I seduce random straight guys with my trappiness. Seriously, I nail at least one per year without even trying.

Now, when you say "nail"... :suess:

Forget it; so, uh, how about that there Metaknight, huh?

 

[Anther]

eh's not that broken.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im going to try to keep this unbiased because i really liked this post

Recap of this thread so far

Pro Ban
OS and Lee have stated that one can pick up Metaknight and be good with Metaknight in less than a week or so. Metaknight not only takes little skill to perfect but also allows a one to play at a higher level than they were once able to.

Anti Ban
Difficulty of a character is inconsequential and good players should be able to make character switches and still be proficient because they already have a strong understanding on the game.

Pro Ban
Metaknight has no bad matchups.

Anti Ban
You are just saying that because your character gets ***** by metaknight. Fox has no bad matchups and we didn't ban him. Also Snake beats metaknight and if olimar camps well he can beat metaknight.

Pro Ban
Melee had a different physics engine. Even though Fox had no bad matchups he was still beatable because of how the engine worked. A good metaknight can outspace Snake. Also Olimar gets gimped easily and metaknight does it better than anyone.

Anti Ban
Snake and Olimar mains need to camp harder. They shouldn't lose to metaknight.


Pro Ban- Metaknight has no bad stages. Thus ruins the counterpicking system.

Anti Ban- Same with Fox

Pro Ban-We have already addressed that.

Anti Ban-Chudat, Azen, M2K, DSF, Ninjalink and other good players oppose the ban. They have also come up with ways to deal with metaknight

Pro ban-We would love to see how they do. Azen has switched to metaknight in a couple of his matches. Ninjalink after his impressive run has now been beaten by metaknights. Even Ninjalink didn't think that metaknight vs Diddy was a good matchup. It could be explained that Ninjalink is just really good and that the metaknights were unfamiliar to the matchup.

Anti Ban
Azen used MK like once and he generally does better with Lucario anyway. You can't count that. Also Ninjalink is sometimes inconsistent. Our other top players seem to have no trouble with Metaknight.


Pro Ban
Metaknight makes up the majority of the competitive scene and is causing an over centralization.

Anti Ban
Marth made up the majority of the competitive scene also and no one wanted to ban him.

Pro Ban
Meta Knight has these aspects of both Fox and Marth from Melee (And if M2K is right, of Sheik as well -- best character in the game). (Brought to you by Salabob

Pro ban
Many characters don't even have answer for metaknights tornado

Anti ban
The good characters do and they are the only ones who matter. Also all you have to do is angle your sheild up. Also you can SDI out of it if you do get caught and punish accordingly.

Pro ban
Without Metaknight the game would be more diverse. The game would be better without metaknight

Anti Ban
You can't ban a character just for the sake of diversity. Also Metaknight beats a lot of the top tier characters that would ruin the game if metaknight did not exist. Marth would be dominant. If not Marth then DDD would be dominant. If not DDD, then Snake would be dominant. If not Snake then Olimar would be dominant. If not Olimar, then GW would be dominant. If not GW then Falco would be dominant. The game would revolve around the second best character and the game would be worse of. Also once we ban one really good character then will start banning all the top characters until you can only play mid and low tier. Which is no fun.

Pro Ban,
Those characters that you have listed all have their flaws and some even have counterpick characters or stages. The game would become more diverse and better. We may see another character dominate but it would not be as bad as metaknight. Also players are smart enough not to go down the slippery slope.

Anti Ban
Banning metaknight is unfair to those of us that have mained him for so long.

Pro Ban
Allowing metaknight is unfair to all the players that have worked so hard on a character only to be repeatedly trounced by metaknight until they either give up or make the switch.

I think that covers most of the big stuff. Though if you have anything to add that would be great. It would be nice to see some new arguments for a change.

I tried to be unbiased. I am particularly in favor of neither at the moment. Preferring that we take some more time and try to get some hard evidence.

Best of the rest arguments.

Anti Ban
We love money

Anti Ban
EC can handle Metaknight

Anti Ban
EC is the best

Anti Ban
Camp harder. Perfect camping FTW

Pro Ban
NOM NOM NOM (eating non metaknights) WE LOVE MONEY lol

Pro ban
Inui is beating top level players with metaknight and he sucks LOL

Pro Ban
I am tired of losing to metaknight.

Pro Ban
AD HOMINEM LOL

when i go back and look at this, i tried to look at it from a objective perspective, and it seems like anti ban arguments are based in what may happen in the future and what happens in certain areas,
while pro ban arguments seem to be focused on what has happened everywhere up to this point, and what the general trends indicate

p.s. im not sure whether i should even try to get things on track, but i will anyway

 

[Slush]

Well, seeing as how he is a character, no. No banning characters, You just need to explore other ways to defeat him. For example, IC blizzard mutilates spam. When he finishes teleporting, not to mention many of his other attacks, he has a huge opening to be smashed, grabbed, etc...get inventive.

Only ban stalling/infinite...galaxicove? (down B), which has already been discussed.

 

[hotgarbage]

Metaknight should be boned

 

[Anther]

Pah, everyone needs to learn that you can point your shield in smash, learn how and why it counters the tornado, not approach when metaknight is charging forward smash unless you already have an attack on the way, shield when metaknight is recovering, learn his arc and that most chars can airdodge past it if you want to edgeguard him and make a spacing mistake... Mmm, shield downsmash, don't jump to escape, either walk forward and shield grab the next one or wait for the spot dodge and tilt... and then metaknight becomes even for a lot of characters.

 

[Praxis]

Metaknight should be boned

He'd probably enjoy it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. Pah, everyone needs to learn that you can point your shield in smash, learn how and why it counters the tornado, 2. not approach when metaknight is charging forward smash unless you already have an attack on the way,3. shield when metaknight is recovering, 4. learn his arc and that most chars can airdodge past it if you want to edgeguard him and make a spacing mistake... 5, Mmm, shield downsmash, don't jump to escape, either walk forward and shield grab the next one or wait for the spot dodge and tilt... and then metaknight becomes even for a lot of characters.

1. i do that already
2. i do that too.
3. that doesnt help me kill him, it seems like youre saying if you dont kill him, run to the other side of the stage and let him recover cus you cant do anything about it.
4. clear up your wording some i dont understand this part.
5. this was something that i was having lots of problems with, i will try this.

this is an example of me (a probanner) trying to get better at the match, dont say ppl only want to ban him when theyve given up on beating him... because i spend just as much time trying to get better, and beat him on my own as I do advocating his ban

 

[Overswarm]

Pah, everyone needs to learn that you can point your shield in smash, learn how and why it counters the tornado, not approach when metaknight is charging forward smash unless you already have an attack on the way, shield when metaknight is recovering, learn his arc and that most chars can airdodge past it if you want to edgeguard him and make a spacing mistake... Mmm, shield downsmash, don't jump to escape, either walk forward and shield grab the next one or wait for the spot dodge and tilt... and then metaknight becomes even for a lot of characters.

Our sets were 1-1 with my 2 week Metaknight, with me winning in the SBR custom stage tournament and taking you to last game 130% for both of us and then missing my sweetspot.

Is it REALLY even? You're really good, probably the best Pika on the planet, have tons of experience playing in tournament, and have experience against MK (you even play Clouderz online =P).

There's no way 2 weeks with Metaknight should put me on par and then do better against Joel than I've ever done.

 

[Anther]

Hehe, I wasn't saying all that. Well I guess I was, n/m. I don't mean that. Technically since he's the lightest, eventually your lil peck tactics will get him to kill percents by punishing his tactics better than he utilizes them.

Certain characters with slower activation kill moves and such will always have a harder time killing careful opponents... and sonic's one of them. I can rack up damage against MK fine with him, but when it comes to killing I'm so much happier when I have pika's dsmash, usmash, utilt and thunder. x.X.

 

[Overswarm]

I miss our ROB vs. Pika matches.

 

[Anther]

Our sets were 1-1 with my 2 week Metaknight, with me winning in the SBR custom stage tournament and taking you to last game 130% for both of us and then missing my sweetspot.

Is it REALLY even? You're really good, probably the best Pika on the planet, have tons of experience playing in tournament, and have experience against MK (you even play Clouderz online =P).

There's no way 2 weeks with Metaknight should put me on par and then do better against Joel than I've ever done.

The custom stage tourney stages were hugely skewed to MKs favor. I 2 stocked you our first match in a regular game, and I made some really bad spacing mistakes that got me prematurely killed or comboed the 3rd game... and other johns I could keep listing ;p. It was you beating me and not Metaknight, just saying. ;p...

Plus you might be better than me, you beat me with ROB last time we met in bracket

I'm sure if I picked up snake 2 weeks before or some other developed char and I studied up on them I'd have similar stories.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm so much happier when I have pika's dsmash, usmash, utilt and thunder. x.X.

?????

 

[Anther]

?????

Just saying that they're all really quick and capable of getting reliable kills. While with sonic I have to work a bit harder to bait them into missing a grab or get a good edgeguard for a kill.

Edit: OH at the BOLDED dsmash!!!

I'm mad at sonic's dsmash for being so slow XD.
Pika's doesn't reliably kill but it reliably will out speed a lot of attacks.

 

[Overswarm]

The custom stage tourney stages were hugely skewed to MKs favor. I 2 stocked you our first match in a regular game, and I made some really bad spacing mistakes that got me prematurely killed or comboed the 3rd game... and other johns I could keep listing ;p.

Plus you might be better than me, you beat me with ROB last time we met in bracket

I'm sure if I picked up snake 2 weeks before or some other developed char and I studied up on them I'd have similar stories.

All stages are highly skewed in MK's favor =P


Also, while I have a winning record against you (I think, I haven't been keeping track lately...?), anyone watching our matches knows that we're close enough to where the day we play is more important than our actual skill level. Our matches generally go back and forth pretty convincingly.


And pick up Snake 2 weeks before a tournament and see what happens.

 

[Anther]

psh no I play to have fun. ;p

I'll do the same with Sonic though XD.

 

[Snakeee]

All stages are highly skewed in MK's favor =P

Not true, I know FD gives some characters that have good camping skills/range an advantage against Meta. And other stages are probably more advantageous for another character than for Meta even though Meta is good on almost every stage.

 

[Anther]

You get no say because your name is Snakeee and you don't even play snake. >=[

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, I think it's a little silly to say that "all stages are skewed in his favor". It's more that Meta Knight is often apathetic to what stage he's on.

 

[salaboB]

Not true, I know FD gives some characters that have good camping skills/range an advantage against Meta. And other stages are probably more advantageous for another character than for Meta even though Meta is good on almost every stage.

I'm not sure FD gives him that much disadvantage vs. projectiles, because once he gets close it's really hard to get around him. Platforms at least could limit some of his approaches.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hmmm? Pretty much all characters that have decent matchups against Meta Knight do their best against him on FD for their own various reasons... Diddy, Snake, Bowser, Zamus, Jigglypuff, Yoshi... *cracks up laughing*

 

[cutter]

 

[salaboB]

Hmmm? Pretty much all characters that have decent matchups against Meta Knight do their best against him on FD for their own various reasons... Diddy, Snake, Bowser, Zamus, Jigglypuff, Yoshi... *cracks up laughing*

Interestingly, Diddy players have been saying that some platform stages are better for them than FD since they learned how to use bananas better.

Whether that will end up true as they continue to practice is up for debate...

(I do appreciate that most of the list you just presented were characters that can't really be considered projectile spammers, when the statement was that FD helps projectile spammers...)