The New Match-Up Chart v2

[TheManaLord]

This topic is really really gay. We are just multiplying the amount of stupid arguments by trying and ultimately failing to make this stupid *** thing!

The MU chart should be the top 10 chars or so or only viable ones and then just the pro's do it like 3rd strike. Mango and m2k

 

[otg]

This topic is really really gay. We are just multiplying the amount of stupid arguments by trying and ultimately failing to make this stupid *** thing!

The MU chart should be the top 10 chars or so or only viable ones and then just the pro's do it like 3rd strike. Mango and m2k

I agree, but w'e we'll just be shunned because people are idealistic. Realistically an accurate matchup chart for this game is impossible, and unnecessary. We know who is good and who is bad and have a general idea of who wins what matchups. For the ones we dont, they are probably close to even anyway and the better player at the time will win, so what ****ing difference does it make?

On top of that, a number of matchup ratios Ive seen people proposing are once again, terrible (a huge fault of the last chart and pretty much every chart before it).

The Matchup chart run by KK and Unknown should've just stuck around. I'm only sorry that I was one of the noobs responsible for making it worse. You live and learn I guess.

 

[KAOSTAR]

The chart isnt really for ppl well versed in the game.

its for the ppl who dont kno as much about it. The more information they can be given the better.

Yes, there are ALOT of dumb motha ***kas saying a bunch of **** thats doesnt make sense. But thre are also ppl who are trying to come correct. There really isnt a reason for you and Mana to come in and keep spittin in ppls faces. The world is full of problems, but you should try your hardest not to add to them.

I have my doubts that this will finish and be accurate, but that doesnt mean im bout to just be like cuz I dont believe nobody should try. if u dont wanna help then dont thats fine, and I dont blame u. but dont hinder the process.

 

[otg]

The process will pan out the same just like every other matchup chart before this one. I'm just trying to do you guys a solid and put a stop to it now so we don't all get enraged and throw feces at one another.

Also note, that if this chart is meant for "newer players", you gotta realize this community really isn't experiencing a new influx of players. It's the same pool of people for the most part, with very few coming in if at all. Newer players should focus more on actually getting good and going out to tournies instead of dwelling on pointless numbers and signs proposed by members of the community who most likely have no relevance on the metagame in the first place.

 

[KAOSTAR]

LOL. why dont u start killing babies because you know they are gonna grow up to be killers and rapists.

 

[otg]

I'm actually 100% behind that, but thats another conversation for another day.

 

[VGmasta]

*Reads posts by OTG and ManaLord*

I don't expect the chart to exactly workout either. But let's just try it anyway. It looks like fun, and I have time on my hands. I'm gotta pick up TWO additional characters on top of what I already play just to help with this chart.

 

[t3h Icy]

I don't realistically expect this to work out either, just that someone else will likely do a lower quality job, I'll whine about it a lot, etc. And statistics are fun.

But pessimism aside, let's all try and see what happens. =) I'll compile everything shortly, but what do you guys think of Cactuarz', Gustav's and Chival's opinions?

 

[x After Dawn x]

don't forget falcon vs puff

 

[Cactuarz]

I'm not too sure about luigi being > jiggs on those levels, but it is a pretty even matchup in my experience (used to main jiggs)

other than that the luigi and IC matchups look about right to me

 

[Druggedfox]

Cactuarz, please explain to me how G&W can touch marth if marth does the following:

Shield
Wavedash
Grab (tech chase a lot)
Down Tilt
Occasional Fairs

With G&Ws overall lack of range, extremely laggy aerials, and terrible shield I simply don't see how G&W could ever beat a marth who actually understood the MU. I used to also think this was possibly around just Marth>G&W... until I actually decided to sit there and do nothing, and just watch as G&W had no options with the exception of perfectly predicting my moves. I am entirely convinced that if the G&W can not significantly OUTPLAY the marth, then this is entirely hopeless... and MUs are based on the characters tools, not how often you can predict the opposition.

 

[Cactuarz]

G&W can stand around and react to marth too, the matchup is only < because if G&W gets one read he gets a grab or a down tilt. which leads to a lot of %. also Marth can't recover vs a G&W that knows what it's doing. Dair will hit a sweet spot marth up b.

there's an entire 3 hour discussion between 4-5 of us G&W players i posted earlier.

Quote from me earlier in this page

Marth:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285342 (2-3 hour chat between j00t/me/kirbykaze/others

Basically marth has some really annoying tech chasing with dthrow/fthrow, If G&W gets inside it can very well be a stock due to how well we combo him, if he's off the stage and we know what we're doing, dair will hit his sweet spot and dtilt hits everything else for edge guarding. We decided it's a 60-40 with stage striking, cause we don't have to play on YS/BF first round and we can cp him to one of our better ones (FoD/brimstar/KJ64) for an easyish win.

It's just a matchup that looks horrid.

 

[t3h Icy]

Are there any well-played videos of the match-up so we can see?

 

[Niko45]

G&W definitely has some range on him. Fair dtilt covers himself well and the dtilt clinks with most of Marth's moveset.

G&W vs Marth is mad gay but Marth still wins obv but it's not that bad I don't think.

Also note, that if this chart is meant for "newer players", you gotta realize this community really isn't experiencing a new influx of players. It's the same pool of people for the most part, with very few coming in if at all. Newer players should focus more on actually getting good and going out to tournies instead of dwelling on pointless numbers and signs proposed by members of the community who most likely have no relevance on the metagame in the first place.

Gotta second this. It'd be better just to have a "general matchup discussion" thread without formulating these charts and stuff. This is largely a distraction for new players and will only slow down their ability to get good at the game because realistically when you're playing in tournaments you don't have time to be worrying about what the "numbers" are on the matchup. I see little purpose in this beyond having something to argue about for the sake of it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Game and Watch frame data:

F-tilt:

Total: 44
Hit: 13-30
IASA: 42

F-smash:

Total: 44
Charge Frame: 8
Hit: 13-33
IASA: 42

Why did they even give him an f-tilt? Lol.

 

[Cactuarz]

hahaha, ftilt is terrible. but looks adorable =D

Only use i find for it is at higher %'s (100ish) if you wanna knock them off the edge without worrying for a spot dodge cause ti's the same knockback thought the attack, whereas fsmash has a weakhit after the first hit. It really is terrible though

I don't think there's any decent videos of marth vs G&W =/ Videos of G&W are hard to come by period haha. I'll get some this summer when salepate (French marth player) visits Oregon for a couple months... I didn't do too badly against him when he was here for christmas though.

I'd like to add that G&W's bair is more disjointed than anything marth has (about 90% positive on this) and his other staple moves are just slightly less than marths, to the same (i'm looking at you fair/dtilt, NAIR)

Fox/Falco/Sheik are really the only chars that G&W has no business fighting against IMO. He's a very capable character aside from those 3... which 90% of the people use. And even then he has good tricks to use on them (chaingrabs vs all 3 from 0-death/0-death/0-40 respectively) and can combo each of them realistically 0-death... too bad if played right G&W should never be able to catch them which is taken into account on my list x.x

 

[Winston]

I'd like to add that G&W's bair is more disjointed than anything marth has (about 90% positive on this)

this is true.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283463

However, it doesn't necessarily mean anything in and of itself. Pure disjointedness isn't really what determines how effective moves are.

 

[Niko45]

I'd say a pretty huge portion of this game is exploiting disjointedness. That thread is awesome btw.

 

[t3h Icy]

Okay, here's the list from you guys.

I'm still sketchy on the G&W stuff; I'd like to know what QERB thinks.

Spoiler

General:
Falco > Luigi
Fox > Luigi, except >> on DL
Ganon > ICs, except = on FD, YS
G&W > Roy, except >> on FoD
G&W >> Pichu
G&W > Yoshi
Marth > Luigi
Luigi > Jigglypuff, except = on DL?

Battlefield:
Fox >> G&W
Ganon > G&W
G&W > Bowser
G&W = Link
G&W = Mewtwo
G&W = Young Link
G&W = Zelda
ICs = Samus
ICs = Sheik
Jigglypuff > G&W
Marth > G&W
Peach > G&W
Peach > ICs

Dreamland:
Falco >>> G&W
Falcon > G&W
Falcon > ICs
Fox = ICs
G&W >>> Kirby
G&W >> Ness
G&W = Pika
ICs = DK
ICs > Doc
ICs > Falco
ICs > Mario
ICs > Marth
Jigglypuff > ICs
Marth > G&W
Sheik > Luigi

Final Destination:
DK = G&W
Doc >> G&W
Falcon > G&W
Fox >> G&W
Fox = ICs
G&W >> Ness
Ganon > G&W
ICs >> G&W
ICs = Marth
Luigi >> G&W
Marth > G&W
Peach > G&W
Sheik > Luigi

Fountain of Dreams
Fox >> G&W
Fox = ICs
G&W > DK
G&W > Falcon
G&W = Ganon
G&W > Link
G&W > Mewtwo
G&W = Pika
G&W > Young Link
G&W > Zelda
ICs > Falcon
ICs = G&W
ICs = Samus
Jigglypuff > G&W
Luigi > ICs
Marth > G&W
Peach > G&W
Sheik >> G&W
Sheik > ICs

Pokemon Stadium:
Doc >> G&W
Falco >>> G&W
Falcon = G&W
Ganon > G&W
G&W = Link
G&W = Mewtwo
G&W >> Ness
G&W > Pika
G&W = Zelda
ICs > Jigglypuff
ICs = Marth
ICs = Samus
ICs = Sheik
Jigglypuff > G&W
Luigi > ICs
Marth > G&W
Peach > G&W
Sheik >> G&W

Yoshi's Story:
DK = G&W
Falco > ICs
Falcon = G&W
Falcon = Jigglypuff
Fox >> G&W
Ganon > G&W
G&W > Bowser
G&W = Link
G&W > Mewtwo
G&W > Young Link
G&W > Zelda
ICs >> Pikachu
ICs = Samus
ICs = Sheik
Jigglypuff > G&W
Luigi > ICs
Luigi > Jigglypuff
Marth >> G&W
Peach > G&W
Peach > ICs
Sheik >> G&W

 

[Winston]

Man, the interest for this really took a dive. I was looking forward to getting ridiculed for my opinions on Luigi's matchups.

Gotta second this. It'd be better just to have a "general matchup discussion" thread without formulating these charts and stuff. This is largely a distraction for new players and will only slow down their ability to get good at the game because realistically when you're playing in tournaments you don't have time to be worrying about what the "numbers" are on the matchup. I see little purpose in this beyond having something to argue about for the sake of it.

Is this even supposed to be practical as a reference? To me it's just something we're doing for fun and to generate discussion about stuff.

I understand what people are saying about how this won't work out, but I don't see the harm in talking about it still for those of us who are inclined to.

I'd say a pretty huge portion of this game is exploiting disjointedness. That thread is awesome btw.

I mean, it's disjointedness and a bunch of other factors. I think startup time/ending lag/separation from body/character physics are just as important.

Jiggs' bair is pretty low on that list, but it's more effective than almost all the ones above it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Gotta second this. It'd be better just to have a "general matchup discussion" thread without formulating these charts and stuff. This is largely a distraction for new players and will only slow down their ability to get good at the game because realistically when you're playing in tournaments you don't have time to be worrying about what the "numbers" are on the matchup. I see little purpose in this beyond having something to argue about for the sake of it.

LOL. WTF dude. you are not distracting new players by saying X character is about z good vs Y character. The dont have to study this chart and have it internalized.

They can glance at it and say hmmm Ill try some of these characters out bcuz I like them but they dont seem terrible on paper. Id hate for somebody to waste a **** load of time picking up ness just to find out later that he is bad and then they switch. Its just letting ppl kno whats up and they can make an informed choice. Some ppl play 4 fun and will just play who is "tight" other ppl play to win and will look for the character they can win with.

Its just a piece of information, there is no way you can say knowing a little more when u pick up a game is a bad thing. If I picked up street fighter Id wanna kno how the character I think I wanna play does at top level plays b4 I put hella time and effort into learning him.

 

[john!]

I'm tempted to start the M2-Zelda debate, but I don't want to derail the thread so early...

Also, I'll money match anybody in G&W dittos if you happen to see me at a tourney.

 

[x After Dawn x]

falco vs falcon

final destination: >/>>
battlefield: >
yoshi's story: >
pokemon stadium: >
dream land: >
fountain of dreams: >>

 

[Cactuarz]

john, genesis 2 sound good?

 

[The Good Doctor]

I'm tempted to start the M2-Zelda debate, but I don't want to derail the thread so early...

Also, I'll money match anybody in G&W dittos if you happen to see me at a tourney.

We both know the one with the vagina wins!
They always do...
<3
Seriously though, hopefully we don't have to tear apart Kaostar's Mewtwo fantasies for the 3,783rd time...
Stubbornness...sigh

 

[idea]

.......my post with jigglypuff vs. fox all the way to samus got deleted before i could post it =/ because i hit enter by accident on the google search bar =/ i guess i'll redo that later.

 

[Roneblaster]

game n watch sucks, there is no way he has > matchups with half the cast.

 

[Cactuarz]

half the cast? I only said he beats DK/Pika/YL/Link/Zelda on 1/2 stages, goes evenw ith m2, and beats roy/yoshi/ness/kirby/bowser/pichu...

I thought that was pretty well accepted that G&W can beat most of those haha but if you wanna argue why he can't feel free =) I'd love to hear why he can't beat kirby or something

 

[VGmasta]

what do you guys think of Cactuarz', Gustav's and Chival's opinions?

Ice Climbers vs Doc

Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =

Ice Climbers vs Ganon

Final Destination =
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium <

I can definitely agree with Chival's Doc and Ganon vs Ice Climbers synopsis. I'm not experienced enough to judge the other matchups though.

With the new guidelines, a bit more effort in breaking it down by stage, and a lot more ambiguity:

Luigi vs. Sheik

Final Destination <
Battlefield <<
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <<

Sheik kinda ***** Luigi overall, and even more so when she has good platforms to work with. Dreamland's platforms being high is actually a good thing here for Luigi instead of a bad thing since Sheik can't short hop onto them.

Luigi vs. Falco

< for all

Platforms let Luigi be more offensive, as they let him move horizontally in the air (sort of), but they also let Falco be more defensive (since jumping on platforms tends to be quite safe) and combo Luigi a bit better. So, a solid < disadvantage all around.

Luigi vs. Marth

< for all

Marth beats Luigi, but it's not too bad, since he can hold his own vs Marth in the neutral game. Luigi does the best on Dreamland, but even then I wouldn't be comfortable saying that it's closer to even than Sheik vs. Fox.Luigi vs. Falcon

< for all

It's closer to even on the Yoshi's and FoD but not quite. Falcon outcombos Luigi in this matchup, and his aerial spam is more than adequate to defend against Luigi's approaches, especially when he has room to run.

Luigi vs. Ganon

< for all

same as above. Don't know enough about this matchup

All of Gustav's opinions sound good. I especially support all the matchups I quoted above.

And it probably is Luigi < Ganon for all the neutrals. Ganon's aerial/tilt spam is probably just as good as (maybe better than) Falcon's aerial spam for walling out Luigi's approaches. Until Luigi can get inside Ganondorf's attack range, Ganon kinda ***** Luigi.

falco vs falcon

final destination: >/>>
battlefield: >
yoshi's story: >
pokemon stadium: >
dream land: >
fountain of dreams: >>

Sounds correct. Falco definitely owns Falcon.

I'm tempted to start the M2-Zelda debate, but I don't want to derail the thread so early...

Yes, please spare the Mewtwo vs Zelda debate for later.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm mostly content with Chival's values.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falcon does a little better vs Falco on FD i thought. Platforms generally help falco cover his head, and without that falcon can use various jump spacing to pressure falco's zone in ways that is harder for him to handle than when there are platforms.

(edit- this is my vote for >, where afterdawn had >/>>)

 

[KAOSTAR]

I dont see how GW beats DK pikachu YL or Zelda at all. Im not saying he doesnt, Im saying ur gonna have to explain it to me.

Ive always felt GW to be a super ****ty low tier marth clone.

@cactuarz-how well is "not too bad or whatever u said" vs salepate?

 

[VGmasta]

Falcon does a little better vs Falco on FD i thought. Platforms generally help falco cover his head, and without that falcon can use various jump spacing to pressure falco's zone in ways that is harder for him to handle than when there are platforms.

(edit- this is my vote for >, where afterdawn had >/>>)

That's good point. I never looked at it that way for whatever reason.

I viewed the lack of platforms as a way for Falco to zone in on Falcon easier. I always think the platforms assist Falcon's recovery and offers Falcon a way around Falco's laser approach. Without the platforms, Falcon has less options as a way around Falco's laser approach.

I'd imagine that it's also tougher for Falcon to escape Falco's shield pressure and combos without the platforms to use.

 

[TheManaLord]

Zelda v Mewtwo

Final Destination =
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >

 

[Forlorn.]

Posting for subscription.

Also, somebody weigh Ganondorf's matchup values?

 

[idea]

Zelda v Mewtwo

Final Destination =
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >

don't even do that! ...also i think i agree <_<

 

[t3h Icy]

This topic is really really gay. We are just multiplying the amount of stupid arguments by trying and ultimately failing to make this stupid *** thing!

The MU chart should be the top 10 chars or so or only viable ones and then just the pro's do it like 3rd strike. Mango and m2k

Zelda v Mewtwo

Final Destination =
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >

Zelda/Mewtwo will be later; we're going to stay on topic.

 

[Dark Hart]

Zelda v Mewtwo

Final Destination =
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >

I agree, cept FoD is >> imo

 

[john!]

Zelda v Mewtwo

Final Destination =
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >

what have you done

 

[otg]

The beginning of the end