Fortress | Sveet
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Well however you decide to make the conversions for this chart, you have the key for interpreting that one post i made. Please at least use the key i posted for that one.
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The New Match-Up Chart v2
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
How about for slight advatage/slight disadvantage its just s> <s?
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
So what you're suggesting is going back to 7-level, but call it something different? No.
I just converted using my best judgment, which is why a ton are probably wrong. For your post that used numbers, I changed 50 and 55 to = and 60 to >, but please avoid using numbers. -_-
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Im saying that the shifts in the MU from stage to stage shouldnt change the MUs much because our scale is larger. If we were using the number system then MUs would change from stage to stage. The ones where m2 gets *****, he still gets *****. some of the equal MUs numbers wise are bordering 60-40. m2 usually does well on FoD, BF, DL, FD vs them and often PS. YS is usually good vs floaties. but none of them are as bad as playing vs falco or marth stage independent. falco on ys is hard. Ganon is too good at holding space, and he has serious killing power.
its easier to cp the player and their style vs the mid tiers then to specifically cp a stage vs the character.
vs fox, marth, falcon on ys. fox gets easy vertical kills. m2 gets ***** harder. its already <<. falcon has less room to move. its a little easier, but still ****. marth, is floaty. m2 benefits from the low ceiling and sides and low floor. marth is easier to edge guard cuz low isn't available as much. up throw and back throw are good and m2 vs marth getting marth on those plats is nair food. but marth tippers kill early. so its easier to rack up dmg and get kills, but marth can tipper u for kills, still in marth's favor no matter what stage. just not nearly as bad as fox there.
m2 vs zelda, luigi, dk on fod. m2 lives longer because of the sides, its harder to up throw kill tho. vs zelda, its not gonna shift her slight disAdv in either direction enough to sway from =. luigi, has a harder time killing m2 here than a place like ys. overall its slightly in luigi's favor(based on our old chart). m2 benefits from the low platform height using nair. killing luigi doesn't change. its the same edge guard. the little m2 gains here won't give m2 an advantage in the MU. same vs dk.
ps. everyone who >> mewtwo still does. its a good stage against peach because the ceiling is lower. but transformations are dumb and that low ceiling imo doesn't make peach > m2.
DL vs peach puff samus. peach and puff are harder to kill, can't get worse than <<. samus and m2 just have long games here. because she lacks an aerial approach u just play the punish when she attacks ur shield game. she happens to die off top easily so an up throw kill or fair are still quite reasonable. a pretty epic match *sarcasm*
m2 is pretty stage balanced. ps and ys are probably overall his worst stages vs the people that **** him. DL is bad for vert kills and good to survive. most m2 kills are edge guards that start from b throw or f tilt. the rest are fair up throw and uair kills. on big stages he just jumps out far and bairs/reverse uair. m2 is a beast off stage and around the ledge. You just have to kno how to use the stage and which kills to go for.
its easier to cp the player and their style vs the mid tiers then to specifically cp a stage vs the character.
just that its a give and take system. DL, m2 lives longer vs ganon fox marth for example. but its not enough to make it an = MU.
vs fox, marth, falcon on ys. fox gets easy vertical kills. m2 gets ***** harder. its already <<. falcon has less room to move. its a little easier, but still ****. marth, is floaty. m2 benefits from the low ceiling and sides and low floor. marth is easier to edge guard cuz low isn't available as much. up throw and back throw are good and m2 vs marth getting marth on those plats is nair food. but marth tippers kill early. so its easier to rack up dmg and get kills, but marth can tipper u for kills, still in marth's favor no matter what stage. just not nearly as bad as fox there.
m2 vs zelda, luigi, dk on fod. m2 lives longer because of the sides, its harder to up throw kill tho. vs zelda, its not gonna shift her slight disAdv in either direction enough to sway from =. luigi, has a harder time killing m2 here than a place like ys. overall its slightly in luigi's favor(based on our old chart). m2 benefits from the low platform height using nair. killing luigi doesn't change. its the same edge guard. the little m2 gains here won't give m2 an advantage in the MU. same vs dk.
ps. everyone who >> mewtwo still does. its a good stage against peach because the ceiling is lower. but transformations are dumb and that low ceiling imo doesn't make peach > m2.
DL vs peach puff samus. peach and puff are harder to kill, can't get worse than <<. samus and m2 just have long games here. because she lacks an aerial approach u just play the punish when she attacks ur shield game. she happens to die off top easily so an up throw kill or fair are still quite reasonable. a pretty epic match *sarcasm*
m2 is pretty stage balanced. ps and ys are probably overall his worst stages vs the people that **** him. DL is bad for vert kills and good to survive. most m2 kills are edge guards that start from b throw or f tilt. the rest are fair up throw and uair kills. on big stages he just jumps out far and bairs/reverse uair. m2 is a beast off stage and around the ledge. You just have to kno how to use the stage and which kills to go for.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Hah sorry I haven't really kept up with the MU chart discussion. I have no idea what level 7 etc means. Just trying to help
Fortress | Sveet
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the 7 level was the old system (7 possible options) <<<, <<, <, =, >, >>, >>>
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
no. you overemphasize a 5 % extra chance of winning / 1 extra game won out of 20 games.
45-55 to 55-45 should be =, then 60-40 to 70-30 should be >, and 70-30 to 95-5 should be >>.
yes, i realize i posted 70-30 twice, it's because i'm sure people don't agree whether or not 70-30 should be part of > or >>. could be both and then the actual matchup could be used to differentiate which one it actually is?
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
edit:nvm .
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
i agree with 60-40 POSSIBLY being =, but i'm sure that's VERY rare and i can't think of any matchups that would fit into that category.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
^ Sheik/marth
Fortress | Sveet
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i think of a slight advantage as being .... a slight advantage. Slightly worse than approximately even (=) but still winnable. With the way you have it After Dawn, even is any matchup that is slightly even and a slight advantage is basically unwinnable if both players are equal skill.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
just depends I suppose. I some ppl may not go in increments of 5. M2s MUs arent gonna change but Im considering changing some of those = to >. Im jus trying to figure out where the scale is. I may alter based on how the majority of ppl are interpreting the scale. I could be a bit lax in my MUs.
@SVeet-I think I may have been interpreting it that way(afterdawn) as well. I think its just my interpretation of sheik vs ganon. lol I dont play either.
@SVeet-I think I may have been interpreting it that way(afterdawn) as well. I think its just my interpretation of sheik vs ganon. lol I dont play either.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
a slight advantage isn't necessarily unwinnable if both players are equal skill lol...
that's like assuming a top level falcon could never take a match off a top level fox or falco even though it's happened plenty of times.
p.s. i'm pretty sure sheik vs marth would be considered >, i don't see how that could be =
that's like assuming a top level falcon could never take a match off a top level fox or falco even though it's happened plenty of times.
p.s. i'm pretty sure sheik vs marth would be considered >, i don't see how that could be =
Fortress | Sveet
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i would say any matchup beyond 60-40 is not "slight" and requires a skill gap in order to overcome consistently (sometimes luck does happen).
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
but you're treating a 60-40 matchup like it's a 3:2 advantage ratio where one character has 1.5x the chance of winning 100 % of the time. it's really just saying one character would win 6/10 games with the other winning 4/10 games, or it would be saying one character has a 60 % chance of winning a match with the other having a 40 %. that's only 1 less match than being even, or 10 % away from having an equal chance of winning the match.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
While we're not currently getting match-ups done, I think this is a good thing to discuss so we don't go off course again.
Read the thread. -_-
Fortress | Sveet
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Testing Match-up Program (Will be edited repeatedly)
Captain Falcon
|_vs._____|FoD| YS| BF| FD| DL| PS
|----------------------------------
|_Fox_____|
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|_Sheik___|
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|_Falco___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Marth___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Jiggly__| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Falcon__| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Peach___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Ganon___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_ICs_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Samus___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Doc_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Mario___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Luigi___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_DK______| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Pikachu_| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Y. Link_| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Link____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Zelda___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_G&W_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Mewtwo__| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Yoshi___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Roy_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Ness____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Kirby___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Bowser__| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Pichu___| - | - | - | - | - | -
Captain Falcon
|_vs._____|FoD| YS| BF| FD| DL| PS
|----------------------------------
|_Fox_____|
|_Sheik___|
|_Falco___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Marth___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Jiggly__| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Falcon__| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Peach___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Ganon___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_ICs_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Samus___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Doc_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Mario___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Luigi___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_DK______| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Pikachu_| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Y. Link_| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Link____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Zelda___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_G&W_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Mewtwo__| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Yoshi___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Roy_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Ness____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Kirby___| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Bowser__| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Pichu___| - | - | - | - | - | -
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
This is why I feel 60-40 is even still. beyond that is a definitive adv and beyond that is get ***** ****
Fortress | Sveet
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I don't believe top level competitive melee has very much luck involved. Especially on neutrals.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Either way, I think most of us could agree that 60-40 means > most of the time.
Fortress | Sveet
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does that also mean 80-20 is only >> some of the time?
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
no. 70-30 is the cut off. 80-20 is always >>
70-30 is sometimes > I guess.
but it makes sense that 60-40 would prob have to be >
but we no longer have to go by 5s. if a MU is that close just say its 59-41 and its = lol
70-30 is sometimes > I guess.
but it makes sense that 60-40 would prob have to be >
but we no longer have to go by 5s. if a MU is that close just say its 59-41 and its = lol
Fortress | Sveet
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i don't think of match-ups in numbers. the numbers actually mean nothing. when i say 55-45 i mean that the 55 person has a little bit of an advantage.
In any case, this is the first release of my Advantage Chart. Download it here.
Requires .Net Framework 3.5 or higher
Instructions:
1. Select a character from the drop down box.
2. Select the first advantage box in the chart.
3. Select your choice for that box using either the mouse or the numbers 1 through 5.
4. Move on to the next box (Tab) and repeat.
5. Press "Copy to Clipboard" to copy the chart into a SWF friendly chart.
Plans for future releases:
Capability to save charts
Help menu
Locking the row for the character selected (currently only puts dashes through the row and can be overridden)
For all feedback, comments, bugs, critiques, suggestions, and one liners, please refer to this page: http://www.smashboards.com/news/blogs/29138/3862/stage-advantage-chart-10b
In any case, this is the first release of my Advantage Chart. Download it here.
Requires .Net Framework 3.5 or higher
Instructions:
1. Select a character from the drop down box.
2. Select the first advantage box in the chart.
3. Select your choice for that box using either the mouse or the numbers 1 through 5.
4. Move on to the next box (Tab) and repeat.
5. Press "Copy to Clipboard" to copy the chart into a SWF friendly chart.
Plans for future releases:
Capability to save charts
Help menu
Locking the row for the character selected (currently only puts dashes through the row and can be overridden)
For all feedback, comments, bugs, critiques, suggestions, and one liners, please refer to this page: http://www.smashboards.com/news/blogs/29138/3862/stage-advantage-chart-10b
Fortress | Sveet
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Marth
|_vs._____|FoD| YS| BF| FD| DL| PS
|----------------------------------
|_Fox_____|
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|_Sheik___|
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|
|
|_Falco___|
|
|
|
|
|
|_Jiggly__|
|
|
|
|
|
|_Falcon__|
|
|
|
|
|
|_Peach___|
|
|
|
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|_Ganon___|
|
|
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|
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|_ICs_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Samus___|
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|_Doc_____|
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|
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|
|_vs._____|FoD| YS| BF| FD| DL| PS
|----------------------------------
|_Fox_____|
|_Sheik___|
|_Falco___|
|_Jiggly__|
|_Falcon__|
|_Peach___|
|_Ganon___|
|_ICs_____| - | - | - | - | - | -
|_Samus___|
|_Doc_____|
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
i hope those numbers aren't final...like, just looking at that first line, marth should not be >>'ing fox on any neutral, even on FD...
edit: i see you changed it now
edit: i see you changed it now
Pi
Smash Hero
masochists....
otg
Smash Master
This thread already makes me want to blow my brains out.
Fortress | Sveet
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If you happened to download my program in the first 30 minutes, please redownload as it has been updated with new graphics links.
For all feedback, comments, bugs, critiques, suggestions, and one liners, please refer to this page: http://www.smashboards.com/news/blogs/29138/3862/stage-advantage-chart-10b
For all feedback, comments, bugs, critiques, suggestions, and one liners, please refer to this page: http://www.smashboards.com/news/blogs/29138/3862/stage-advantage-chart-10b
l0telephone0l
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2007
- Messages
- 43
So if I pull a bob-bomb and 4 stitch faces...
Or if luigi misfires whenever needed...
There's plenty of luck.
N64
Smash Champion
pika vs doc and pika vs mario should both be +1 (advantage to doc/mario). Otherwise pika stuff looks ok. When I get back from vacation I'll try to set up a pika conference to talk about stage differences in matchups.
Fortress | Sveet
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You're talking about improbable instances of chance based moves. Yes those can be really annoying and if that happened, yes that would definitely be lucky.
My post was referencing the post After Dawn made about 60-40 meaning one player had a 60% chance to win and the other had 40%.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Sounds right.
I like this idea.
Lol, I think I know what you mean.
I never mentioned it on the 2nd generation chart, but using the character images, especially on the redundant diagonals, is very nice.
Very ambitious to do this by major stage, I like that approach.
Relative match-ups with a 5-scale system is probably better than the 10-scale previously.
Very ambitious to do this by major stage, I like that approach.
Relative match-ups with a 5-scale system is probably better than the 10-scale previously.
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
*Bowser subscribes
otg
Smash Master
Guys, please dont make this chart. The whole 5 tier system (>> > = < <<) is just going to devolve into numbers, which will devolve into bull****, which wont accomplish anything.
Let's just do everyone a favor, and never make a matchup chart ever again.
Ever.
Let's just do everyone a favor, and never make a matchup chart ever again.
Ever.
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
Falcon vs Marth
FoD <<
-lol, needs explanation?
FD =>
-It's in Falcons favor for sure, but Marth is just so much better than falcon that I don't think falcon actually gains significant advantage is a MU of even-skilled players.
DL =>
-Same as FD
BF <
-Wonky edge favors marth's edgeguarding more than normal, but it's big and the blast boxes are huge allowing falcon to live forever.
YS <<
-Lol, FoD status.
Falcon vs Falco
FoD <<
-.......
FD <<
-no platforms means no escape from either characters comboes, but falco can just pew pew forever.
DL <
-Not near as bad as FoD or FD
BF <
-Not as bad as FoD or FD
YS <<
-Too small for falcon, no escaping.
Falcon vs Fox
FoD <<
-Falcon gets ***** on small stages by all good characters.
FD <
-Both characters get to stretch their legs and rapeeee
DL<
-Same as FD
BF <
-Same as FD/DL
YS <<
-Same as FoD
Falcon vs Sheik
FoD <<
-Small stage vs good character.....rapeee
FD <<
-This can be completely un-fair
DL <
-DL is a solid falcon CP vs everyone, except Puff and maybe Peach.
BF <
-I don't feel like theres any BF specific things to know
YS <<
-Falcon vs a good character on a small stage
Falcon vs Puff
FoD <<
-Small Stage
FD <
-Eh. Nothing FD specific
DL <
-Falcon can survive rests, but puff lives longer than on other stages.
BF <
-Standard Stuff.
YS = or <
-Falcon can kill puff early, but there is so much that can go wrong on those platforms.
I have 700 youtube subscribers, my opinion matters.
FoD <<
-lol, needs explanation?
FD =>
-It's in Falcons favor for sure, but Marth is just so much better than falcon that I don't think falcon actually gains significant advantage is a MU of even-skilled players.
DL =>
-Same as FD
BF <
-Wonky edge favors marth's edgeguarding more than normal, but it's big and the blast boxes are huge allowing falcon to live forever.
YS <<
-Lol, FoD status.
Falcon vs Falco
FoD <<
-.......
FD <<
-no platforms means no escape from either characters comboes, but falco can just pew pew forever.
DL <
-Not near as bad as FoD or FD
BF <
-Not as bad as FoD or FD
YS <<
-Too small for falcon, no escaping.
Falcon vs Fox
FoD <<
-Falcon gets ***** on small stages by all good characters.
FD <
-Both characters get to stretch their legs and rapeeee
DL<
-Same as FD
BF <
-Same as FD/DL
YS <<
-Same as FoD
Falcon vs Sheik
FoD <<
-Small stage vs good character.....rapeee
FD <<
-This can be completely un-fair
DL <
-DL is a solid falcon CP vs everyone, except Puff and maybe Peach.
BF <
-I don't feel like theres any BF specific things to know
YS <<
-Falcon vs a good character on a small stage
Falcon vs Puff
FoD <<
-Small Stage
FD <
-Eh. Nothing FD specific
DL <
-Falcon can survive rests, but puff lives longer than on other stages.
BF <
-Standard Stuff.
YS = or <
-Falcon can kill puff early, but there is so much that can go wrong on those platforms.
I have 700 youtube subscribers, my opinion matters.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
lol @ you not realizing there's no <<<
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
i know you arent talkin to me, bro.
Fox vs IC
Final Destination <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Battlefield >
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >
YS is too smallllll to really be useful for CG
FD for obvious reasons
DL because both characters have good advantages on that stage [good horizontal movement for ICs, high ceiling, but also has nicely placed platforms and small enough to never let ICs escape]
FoD I just hate. And it's random enough to be useful to both at times.
Final Destination <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Battlefield >
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >
YS is too smallllll to really be useful for CG
FD for obvious reasons
DL because both characters have good advantages on that stage [good horizontal movement for ICs, high ceiling, but also has nicely placed platforms and small enough to never let ICs escape]
FoD I just hate. And it's random enough to be useful to both at times.