The New Match-Up Chart v2

[Roneblaster]

too small means more chances for a handoff, just sayin

 

[KirbyKaze]

Though it also means it takes less to kill Nana

 

[Roneblaster]

you arent on aim.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Guys, please dont make this chart. The whole 5 tier system (>> > = < <<) is just going to devolve into numbers, which will devolve into bull****, which wont accomplish anything.

Let's just do everyone a favor, and never make a matchup chart ever again.

Ever.

All you ever did was post ur opinion on Docs MUs on day 1, and then u did this^

Just leave lol, nobody is forcing you to read this. Quit being a negative nancy. either u in, or out. if u out.....DEUCES

dont worry, Ill get the m2 discussions going and this thread will be uber productive

 

[x After Dawn x]

reneblade you only have 699 subs you liar

get at me

 

[Roneblaster]

i was wonderin if anyone was gonna call me out on that.

 

[Beat!]

It's cool, I'll subscribe tomorrow. Then it won't be a lie anymore.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Anyone who actually plays ICs at a reasonable level would know how INSANELY often 0-death handoffs (maybe with one alternate cg thrown in the mix) occur on YS against Fox - and against any character, in fact. That being said, YS can go either way in that matchup. Don't really know if I favor it or hate it yet.

 

[Roneblaster]

i have more subscribers than you, my opinion holds more weight.


(<3)

 

[t3h Icy]

Here's the current list of pending match-ups. If all goes well for most of them, I'll update soon:

General:
Doc > Pika
Falco >> G&W
Falco > Link
G&W > Ness
G&W > Pichu
Link > Kirby
Luigi > G&W
Mario > Pika
Puff > Peach

Battlefield:
DK > G&W
G&W = Link
G&W = Zelda
Marth = Sheik
Puff > Marth

Final Destination:
DK = Fox
Doc = Marth
G&W = Zelda
Marth = Peach
Marth = Samus
Marth > Falco
Marth > Falcon
Marth > Fox
YL > G&W

Fountain of Dreams:
G&W > DK
G&W = Link
G&W = Zelda
Marth = Peach
Marth = Samus
Marth > Falcon
Marth > Fox
Marth > Ganon

Dreamland:
DK > G&W
Doc = Marth
Falco > Marth
Falcon > Marth
Fox > Marth
G&W = Link
Marth = Peach
Marth = Samus
Marth > Ganon
Peach >> G&W
Puff > G&W
Puff > Marth
YL > G&W

Pokemon Stadium:
Doc >> G&W
Falco > Marth
Falcon > Marth
Fox > Marth
G&W = Link
G&W = Zelda
Marth = Sheik
Marth > Ganon
Marth > Puff
YL > G&W

Yoshi's Story:
G&W = Zelda
Link = G&W
Marth = Sheik
Marth > Falco
Marth > Falcon
Marth > Falcon
Marth > Fox
Marth > Puff
Roy >> G&W
Roy >> Pichu

I never mentioned it on the 2nd generation chart, but using the character images, especially on the redundant diagonals, is very nice.

Very ambitious to do this by major stage, I like that approach.

Relative match-ups with a 5-scale system is probably better than the 10-scale previously.

Thanks! =)

*Bowser subscribes

Feel free to jump in.

Guys, please dont make this chart. The whole 5 tier system (>> > = < <<) is just going to devolve into numbers, which will devolve into bull****, which wont accomplish anything.

Let's just do everyone a favor, and never make a matchup chart ever again.

Ever.

Nope, no numbers this time.

lol @ you not realizing there's no <<<

This.

Fox vs IC

Final Destination <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Battlefield >
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >

YS is too smallllll to really be useful for CG
FD for obvious reasons
DL because both characters have good advantages on that stage [good horizontal movement for ICs, high ceiling, but also has nicely placed platforms and small enough to never let ICs escape]
FoD I just hate. And it's random enough to be useful to both at times.

Have you ever played Melee before?

 

[Cactuarz]

I wouldn't say falco is in general >> than G&W. falco/fox are close but only 1 nuetral stage is >> and 2 cp's are >. (pokemon stadium and RC)

Sheik would be >> general cause 3 nuetrals are bad rather than one.

roy is in NO WAY >> G&W. roy has absolutely no >> matchups. and very few >. i think the only thing that you're saying >> on is magus saying dtilt to reverse up b kills >.> that trick isn't going to kill people looking out for it. admittedly it'll take you by surprise the first time haha.

I've got practice in the matchup with one of the better players in my state who plays him/falcon. It's still a bad matchup. Roy has a hard time killing or approaching or anything. with that trick that matchup is still between > and = in G&W's favor.

 

[Kyu Puff]

It's hard to describe match-ups on specific stages... For ICs/Fox, I think ICs < Fox overall, but ICs do better on FD and FoD, YS and BF are relatively neutral for the match-up, and Fox does better on DL64 and Stadium. But this probably wasn't helpful at all.

 

[Druggedfox]

Have you ever played Melee before?

LOOOOL That was the best response :D

 

[_lemons]

I'm not sure I agree that Peach = Marth on FD. I'm more inclined to believe it's equal on DL64, but could someone explain the reasoning behind the matchup being even on FD (also FoD, although I can somewhat see it being evenish there).

 

[john!]

out of all the lower tiers, i find roy to be the most difficult for g&w to handle, except maybe pikachu. this isn't theory, it's just what i've experienced during a few low tier tourneys. any g&w mains have any experience in low tier matchups?

 

[Cactuarz]

I've never had issues with roy at all, pika is pretty even imo. YL/zelda/mario(low tier now?)/luigi are much harder to deal with. Roy isn't bad to go against at all, just trade hits really against roy's tipper hits, he has a hard time getting inside of G&W imo.

 

[Winston]

Luigi < Fox on all stages
Luigi < Sheik on all stages
Luigi < Falco on all stages
Luigi < Marth on all stages
Luigi either = or > Jigglypuff on all stages, I'm not sure, but it's not <
Luigi = Falcon on Yoshi's and FoD; < Falcon on the others
Luigi < Peach on all stages
Luigi < Ganon on all stages
Luigi = ICs on all stages
Luigi = Samus on all stages
Luigi = Doc on all stages
Luigi > Mario on FD, Dreamland, Stadium; = Mario on FoD, Yoshi's, Battlefield

and.... who cares about the rest.

If anyone wants to discuss these I'd be happy to.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Luigi = ICs on all stages

Isn't that just swell.

 

[t3h Icy]

I wouldn't say falco is in general >> than G&W. falco/fox are close but only 1 nuetral stage is >> and 2 cp's are >. (pokemon stadium and RC)

Sheik would be >> general cause 3 nuetrals are bad rather than one.

roy is in NO WAY >> G&W. roy has absolutely no >> matchups. and very few >. i think the only thing that you're saying >> on is magus saying dtilt to reverse up b kills >.> that trick isn't going to kill people looking out for it. admittedly it'll take you by surprise the first time haha.

I've got practice in the matchup with one of the better players in my state who plays him/falcon. It's still a bad matchup. Roy has a hard time killing or approaching or anything. with that trick that matchup is still between > and = in G&W's favor.

I'll remove those for now then.

It's hard to describe match-ups on specific stages... For ICs/Fox, I think ICs < Fox overall, but ICs do better on FD and FoD, YS and BF are relatively neutral for the match-up, and Fox does better on DL64 and Stadium. But this probably wasn't helpful at all.

So say, Fox > ICs on DL, PS and Fox = ICs YS, BF, and somewhere along the border with FD and FoD?

I'm not sure I agree that Peach = Marth on FD. I'm more inclined to believe it's equal on DL64, but could someone explain the reasoning behind the matchup being even on FD (also FoD, although I can somewhat see it being evenish there).

Ask Sveet, but I'll hold off on this one too.

Luigi < Fox on all stages
Luigi < Sheik on all stages
Luigi < Falco on all stages
Luigi < Marth on all stages
Luigi either = or > Jigglypuff on all stages, I'm not sure, but it's not <
Luigi = Falcon on Yoshi's and FoD; < Falcon on the others
Luigi < Peach on all stages
Luigi < Ganon on all stages
Luigi = ICs on all stages
Luigi = Samus on all stages
Luigi = Doc on all stages
Luigi > Mario on FD, Dreamland, Stadium; = Mario on FoD, Yoshi's, Battlefield

and.... who cares about the rest.

If anyone wants to discuss these I'd be happy to.

That'd be great. :D

Isn't that just swell.

Especially this one.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

hey gustav, you said that luigi > or = puff on all stages? How?

 

[Here Rests A Cemetery]

I'm more curious to hear his reasoning behind Luigi being = to Ice Climbers on all neutral stages.

 

[Roneblaster]

Marth isnt > Falcon on FD. Its evenish to falcons favor. And marth is >> falcon on fod

 

[x After Dawn x]

i agree with your first point but there's no way marth is absolutely unbeatable on fod

learn yo stages and it's not impoosible

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea. fod just requires more tech skill and alternative approaches.

marth> falcon fod

marth = falcon fd

falcon> marth DL.

marth> falcon ys

marth = falcon bf

marth = falcon ps

 

[KirbyKaze]

I hope you're not one of the low tier players that gets upset when people talk about their MUs without maining the character >__>

 

[VGmasta]

Here's the current list of pending match-ups. If all goes well for most of them, I'll update soon:

Final Destination:
Doc = Marth


Dreamland:
Doc = Marth

What?! How?!
I vote:
Final Destination:
Doc < Marth


Dreamland:
Doc < Marth

Although Dreamland 64 is probably one of the better stages for Doc in the matchup, it's still Marth vs Doc which is still bad overall. What does Marth lose here (besides free f-smashing on the platforms above)?

And Final Destination actually just sucks for Doc. Doc's only decent on one area (the ground), and he's bad EVERYWHERE ELSE including: in the air and recovering offstage.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I hope you're not one of the low tier players that gets upset when people talk about their MUs without maining the character >__>

Its unimportant if u main the character. but it was to a point where ppl were just spewing "facts" that werent even close. I was questioning more have you even played the character.

I just apparently came to a false conclusion. This was just my op off the top. I mained m2 marth for over a year tho.

How do you think it goes?

 

[t3h Icy]

Its unimportant if u main the character.

Oh god.

 

[Roneblaster]

so << means its not doable? or it means its hard to do?

because in a battle of even skilled players on FoD its damn near impossible to do.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Oh god.

Im only referring to players like drugged fox and kirby kaze who know alot about this game but I highly doubt they main all the characters.

So you dont have to main a character to know what you are talking about. Thats more common amongst high tier characters who are played in tournament daily and constantly being studied and analyzed. Most low tiers are considered boring and by alot of players still arent explored and just checked off as bad. Considering M2 was dead last on the tier list for a good while and then moved up to third from last I think its safe to assume he was one of those characters.

if you want to get technical u can look back and my claim was that x ppl didnt even play m2(or a specific MU involving at least of of the low tier characters in quesion). It was never about the title of maining a character because you can still play alot of a certain character without it being your main.

Dont turn this into something its not lol.

 

[Winston]

Big post incoming. If anyone wants me to format this better or something let me know.

hey gustav, you said that luigi > or = puff on all stages? How?

First, Luigi can deal with Jiggs' air game.

Jiggs' bair -> retreat doesn't work vs. Luigi as well as it does vs. everyone else because Luigi can follow the retreat with a wavedash utilt or upward angled ftilt. There's not enough time for Luigi to land a guaranteed hit off a missed aerial, but there's enough time that he can present a threat to Jiggs' spaced retreating aerials. Jiggs can't rely on them to the same extent that he (she? it?) can in other matchups.

Luigi's bair also can compete with Jiggs' bair. It has a comparable disjointedness and decent separation from his body. Trading hits with Jigglypuff is often a good thing in this matchup since Luigi is heavier. He can use his bair to stalemate Jiggs' approaches while maintaining the threat of a wavedash/waveland/empty sh waveland approach.

Normally Jiggs wins this kind of spacing battle by cornering the opponent, but a well executed ledge wavedash from Luigi gives him enough invincibility and distance to get a partial reset of the situation. (Not that getting cornered is a good thing, but it's not awful for Luigi because of this).

On stages with platforms Luigi can also use platform waveland bair to increase his horizontal air mobility and attack from a different aerial plane, or to get out of pressured situations.

Jigglypuff is forced to mix up her aerial -> retreat game with predicting wavedash approaches from Luigi, but Luigi isn't under any particular pressure to approach and can fake wavedashes, move around without really committing, etc. It's possible that Jiggs' crouch -> rest is a big problem for Luigi's wavedash approaches, but I don't have enough experience with this to say.

The punish game is fairly even also. When Luigi lands a wavedash utilt at lowish percents, he'll usually get 1-2 hits after that, and then be in a position to possibly score another as Jiggs tries to get down. That's a solid chunk of damage.
Jigglypuff could get bair chains, but this shouldn't happen often unless Luigi is offstage since otherwise he can DI down and away. The most common multihit punishes for Jigglypuff occur when she can get him trapped above him with uairs, but this isn't too devastating either.

Jiggs dies pretty early if she messes up and eats a strong hit like usmash or dair (shouldn't happen too often, but it can); otherwise she still dies at a pretty reasonable percent from the safe wd utilt. If the Jigglypuff is playing more of a grounded game then Dsmash becomes a pretty good KO option also.
Luigi can die early if he gets bair chained offstage, but he has the tools to get himself out of cornered situations and avoid this happening too often. Jiggs doesn't really have any rest setups besides calling a roll and resting. Of course, Luigi gets edgeguarded pretty well by Jigglypuff (though misfires can happen). He is heavier, though, so taking everything into account their durability is about the same in this matchup.

All that being said, I don't know exactly how this matchup goes due to the lack of top level Luigis, and because there aren't any Jigglypuff players that feel comfortable in the matchup. When I've played it in tournament I've felt slightly advantaged, and Vist feels that Luigi has a considerable advantage in the matchup (he beat Mango in Pound 3 pools). I attribute a lot of that to matchup inexperience from the other side. I feel pretty strongly that it's at least even, though.

It's possible that Jiggs > Luigi on Dreamland due to survivability, but I don't think so. It doesn't change anything fundamentally about the matchup besides the blastzones.

I'm more curious to hear his reasoning behind Luigi being = to Ice Climbers on all neutral stages.

I think Luigi has a slight advantage, but not as much as Marth vs. Doc or Sheik vs. Ganon (the examples for a > matchup).

What does Luigi have in this matchup that makes him have a big advantage? His dair is safe on block from the front, sure, but that's about it. While aerialing an Ice Climbers' shield from the front is a positive for Luigi, it's only slight positive since more often than not, it'll just lead to a reset of the situation when they wavedash away. You have to get in position to be able to aerial their shield in the first place, which is a commitment, since Luigi isn't Fox/Falcon. He has to navigate a treacherous barrage of Ice moves that the ICs throw at him to get in position to land a hit. Between Ice Blocks, Blizzard, and SH bair ICs do a pretty good job of obstructing a simple wavedash approach from Luigi.

Doing a ground move is really risky in this matchup if the ICs are synched, since none of them are safe on block/CC. So basically all Luigi can do from neutral is try to get in position for an aerial, unless he has a read on what they're going to do.

Luigi obviously beats Sopo, but he's not amazing at separating them like Fox/Peach are.

ICs have a pretty good punish on him, which basically involves anything -> combo him with uairs -> keep him in the air since he has no horizontal mobility and uair beats dair if done correctly. If they manage to land a grab at him at highish percents, stuff -> blizzard -> charge usmash KOs quite early.

I think it's in Luigi's favor slightly; it's less even than Fox vs. Sheik, but more even than Sheik vs. Ganon. I interpreted that as = but it's somewhere in between = and >, going by the guidelines specified.

i agree with your first point but there's no way marth is absolutely unbeatable on fod

learn yo stages and it's not impoosible

Agreed. No way Falcon vs. Marth on FoD is anywhere near Sheik/Link or Marth/Bowser.

 

[CloneHat]

That's the problem.

Matchups between top tiers get exaggerated, since nobody plays low tiers and knows what a bad matchup is. We have things like:

"Fox vs Peach is free lol Fox>>Peach" (actual quote) and
"Roy gets destroyed by Sheik, Sheik>>Roy"

There's a HUGE difference between these matchups. If we continue to use the < or << system, then the low tiers would definitely have their << matchups, while all the Marth vs Sheik, Fox vs Peach, Sheik vs Puff, etc. could only be = or < matchups. Having only two options really limits the way matchups can be expressed.

It may be prudent to use a more detailed/seperate measurement system for the characters more commonly used, as the matchups get blurry when we have to compare horrible matches to seemingly horrible matches.

 

[Dark Hart]

Which is why this 5 point system won't work in Melee as opposed to 64

 

[KirbyKaze]

Its unimportant if u main the character. but it was to a point where ppl were just spewing "facts" that werent even close. I was questioning more have you even played the character.

Oh, okay. You know, I can sort of sympathize with this because I often feel the same way.

Because Sheik is sort of like a low tier. Almost nobody is good with her so everyone thinks stuff works on her that really doesn't. And very few people have ever played a good Sheik lolol.

 

[Codi]

Fox vs Falco FD = Fox
chaingrabs, shine spikes
Fox vs Falco DL = falco
platform combo game good, laser camping
Fox vs Falco BF = Falco
platform combo game really good
Fox vs Falco YS = tie
Fox vs Falco FOD = Falco
platform combo game really good
Fox vs Falco PS= tie

Marth vs Fox FD = Marth
chaingrabs
Marth vs Fox DL = Fox
platforms to high for marth to tilt accurately, great place for fox to run around in
Marth vs Fox BF = Marth
platforms, tilts, grabs
Marth vs Fox YS = Marth
platforms, tilts
Marth vs Fox FOD = Marth
platforms, tilts
Marth vs Fox PS = Fox
good place for fox to run around in

Marth vs Falco FD = Marth
chaingrabs
Marth vs Falco DL =Falco
laser camping, platform game
Marth vs Falco BF = Falco
really close match but i give it to falco because of the platform game
Marth vs Falco YS =Marth
tilts
Marth vs Falco FOD = Tie
Marth vs Falco PS = Falco

Sheik vs Fox FD = tie
Sheik vs Fox DL = tie
Sheik vs Fox BF = tie
Sheik vs Fox YS = tie
Sheik vs Fox FOD = tie
Sheik vs Fox PS = Fox

Sheik vs Falco FD =tie
Sheik vs Falco DL = falco
Sheik vs Falco BF =tie
Sheik vs Falco YS = sheik
Sheik vs Falco FOD =tie
Sheik vs Falco PS =falco

 

[KAOSTAR]

@codi-u should have just followed instructions. nobody wants to see fox vs falco FD=fox. WTF does that mean? fox vs falco FD is either <<,<,=>,>>. not asking who wins, most importantly its to what degree. Edit ur post and try again. >_<





Yea I feel it KK. Sheiks are alot rarer these days. and Good ones even moreso.


@dark Hart-yea, thats why I felt the 7 was much better. the difference between **** and disadvantaged is pretty clear, the questionable areas are around = and slight disadvantage. with a 5 level system all you do is mash them together, making it harder to differentiate.

Most MUs will be > or < in a 7 point system. in the 5 ur gonna get mostly ='s which tells us alot less about the "important characters" and somehow borderline false information about the low tiers.

for example with m2.
fox>>>
falcon>>>
puff>>>
peach>>>
sheik>>
falco>>
marth>>
ganon>>
samus>
IC>
mario>
...

vs

fox>>
falcon>>
puff>>
peach>>
sheik>>
falco>
marth>
ganon>
samus=
IC=
Mario=
...

marth and falco are def still solidly advantaged vs m2 but I at least understand how marth is not as hard as the >>> MUs. but when u get down to samus and IC and mario, m2 is at a slight disadvantage, but It feels weird calling them equal, and it feels weird trying to say that ganon falco marth sheik are as hard as fox falcon puff peach. PEach is borderline >> and >>> when she plays the MU correctly. Stuff like not floating too high and telegraphing your aerials from it aka floating to high lol.

IMO that leeway is pretty important for accuracy across the entire chart, and the information is much more valuable. Ur really not trying to see a chart where m2 is about = with most of the cast. based on the scale thats what it comes down to and its really just not true. He avoids getting utterly destroyer by most of the cast. But he is almost always fighting uphill battles and thats how he should be represented on the chart. But Im not gonna say marth is as hard as fox and im not bout to say mario is as hard as marth/ganon/falco.

PPl need to truly exp some bad MUs so they can scale accordingly. PEach vs fox is not **** lol. Its def a fox favor MU, maybe even slight cuz peach can **** that dude up as well.

We just need a bigger scale aka smaller increments of measurement. Melee is fairly balanced in that most of the characters are usable to some degree and the 5 isnt gonna work, what we had b4 was nice.

 

[x After Dawn x]

codi that has to be the worst post in this thread so far, i don't think you understand the 5-tier system and you have single-worded arguments like "tie" or "shine spikes"

like, why would fox beat falco on FD simply because he has "shine spikes?" does fox not have shine spikes on every other stage?

i could just as simply say the matchup is in falco's favor by saying "lasers"

and besides all that, all of the neutrals in fox vs falco are undoubtedly = except maybe FD, which is understandable if somebody says it swings one way or the other because of how inconsistent matches on that stage tend to be

so << means its not doable? or it means its hard to do?

because in a battle of even skilled players on FoD its damn near impossible to do.

this isn't just a battle of two evenly skilled player, it's between two top players that are evenly skilled

are you saying a falcon like darkrain's or ss's couldn't take a match of a marth like falcomist or HBK if they played a few matches together?

>> is a **** matchup, this is mostly reserved for huge advantages or just straight up **** like the way people see pikachu vs sheik

Agreed. No way Falcon vs. Marth on FoD is anywhere near Sheik/Link or Marth/Bowser.

yeah.

 

[Roneblaster]

darkrain and SS are above falcomist and HBK.

if << is only sheik vs pika or sheik vs link or something then this MU chart will fail just as hard.

 

[x After Dawn x]

a 5 tier system sacrifices precision for accuracy. won't necessarily fail.

 

[idea]

i think one of the main things is that anything worse than >> no one cares about. it's not important to know EXACTLY how bad the worst matchups are.