Roneblaster
Smash Hero
people are saying >> is only the worst MU's in the game. terrible idea.
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The New Match-Up Chart v2
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
Winston
Smash Master
yeah, but you still have to have the >>> category for those matchups
otherwise with >> as the worst then all the relevant matchups are in the > range so the chart becomes not very informative.
I think so too, but I'm going with Icy's format for now since he's the one running this. But yeah I think having 7 is way better than 5 =\
I don't think the old chart broke down because we used 7 categories; it broke down when we tried to use numbers, which is 21 categories.
john!
Smash Hero
so basically, > means "you have a chance" and >> means "you don't have a chance"? lmao.
idea
Smash Master
i see what you mean but that doesn't seem necessary. i see >> as, let's say, 60-40 and worse. how much worse? doesn't matter. (could also represent 65-35 and worse, you get the point)
it doesn't have to be relative to the worst matchup. it should be relevant to close matchups and the worst matchups should be lumped in with >>.
it doesn't have to be relative to the worst matchup. it should be relevant to close matchups and the worst matchups should be lumped in with >>.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
look guys. M2 vs fox is considered horrible.
marth vs sheik is not.
falcon vs sheik on FoD isnt NEARLY as bad as m2 fox.
they should not be represented with the same symbol by any means.
@afterdawn, that is in no way moree accurate. 5 is just too small, or ppl really need to get their **** together. Its harder than 7 imo. At least ppl knew that the low tiers would be the ones with >>> level 3 *****. now *****s is up here talking about marth >> C. falcon on FoD. Bull****! so now kirby is just as good as falcon on FoD vs marth? As somebody not familiar with this game and u look at this chart what are u bout to think. ummmm. **** son!
7 >>> is used much more sparingly, reserved for low tiers vs high tiers because that in fact is an entirely new levl of difficulty than some of you have experienced, at least from your responses anyway.
Mid tiers are often slightly disadvantaged vs high tiers and slightly adv low tiers. Everybody doesnt just get ***** by fox and we have an incredibly unbalanced game. u gotta think about the chart as a whole and what it actually says when its complete. 5 point system doesnt tell you enough information to be worth it at all. Thats like saying lets use a 3 point system and expecting it to be more accurate than the 5, were only sacrificing a lil percision. LMAO. na son! Yes technically ur chance at getting it wrong is lower(kinda, other probs arise) but then u dont tell the reader ****.
If we cant do a 7 level system as a community then we might as well just quit now. 5 doesnt tell u enough information. Its just gonna tell u that everybody is equal because fox vs falcon is not gonna be >. its gonna be equal. Fox vs mario is gonna be >.
****ing Otg was right lol.
marth vs sheik is not.
falcon vs sheik on FoD isnt NEARLY as bad as m2 fox.
they should not be represented with the same symbol by any means.
@afterdawn, that is in no way moree accurate. 5 is just too small, or ppl really need to get their **** together. Its harder than 7 imo. At least ppl knew that the low tiers would be the ones with >>> level 3 *****. now *****s is up here talking about marth >> C. falcon on FoD. Bull****! so now kirby is just as good as falcon on FoD vs marth? As somebody not familiar with this game and u look at this chart what are u bout to think. ummmm. **** son!
7 >>> is used much more sparingly, reserved for low tiers vs high tiers because that in fact is an entirely new levl of difficulty than some of you have experienced, at least from your responses anyway.
Mid tiers are often slightly disadvantaged vs high tiers and slightly adv low tiers. Everybody doesnt just get ***** by fox and we have an incredibly unbalanced game. u gotta think about the chart as a whole and what it actually says when its complete. 5 point system doesnt tell you enough information to be worth it at all. Thats like saying lets use a 3 point system and expecting it to be more accurate than the 5, were only sacrificing a lil percision. LMAO. na son! Yes technically ur chance at getting it wrong is lower(kinda, other probs arise) but then u dont tell the reader ****.
If we cant do a 7 level system as a community then we might as well just quit now. 5 doesnt tell u enough information. Its just gonna tell u that everybody is equal because fox vs falcon is not gonna be >. its gonna be equal. Fox vs mario is gonna be >.
****ing Otg was right lol.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
I kinda agree with this. The numbers probably caused a more of an unnecessary commotion than the 7-level matchup system.
otg
Smash Master
Told ya, Melee matchup chart is impossible to do accurately. Should just be ignored.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
kaostar, i'm not even going to bother arguing with you because you obviously don't know the difference between accuracy and precision.
Less classifications of matchups = LESS precise but MORE accurate. More classifications = more precise but less accurate.
just for the count, i'm in favor of a 7 classification chart. can we revert back to that, but keep the separate neutral stage charts at the same time?
Less classifications of matchups = LESS precise but MORE accurate. More classifications = more precise but less accurate.
just for the count, i'm in favor of a 7 classification chart. can we revert back to that, but keep the separate neutral stage charts at the same time?
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I acknowledged the precision vs accuracy thing. but being more accurate doesnt tell the reader **** in these circumstances.
I understood what u were saying, I was more ranting than anything. I apologize for coming off that way. I shouldnt have used less accurate to mean overall the chart is just ****ing dumb with a 5 point system.
LOL the way I was looking at the chart was hit or miss. pikachu yl mario etc being = to m2 was just wrong and therefore inaccurate. than using the 7 point system. It moves the MUs that are closer into the miss zone. So MUs that were dis adv for m2 got moved into the equal zone.
MOre accurate for me would be like pichu vs cast<. All of them are right and accurate but less precise.
So I guess I scaled from worst to best, and other ppl scaled from best to worst?
make sense?
I understood what u were saying, I was more ranting than anything. I apologize for coming off that way. I shouldnt have used less accurate to mean overall the chart is just ****ing dumb with a 5 point system.
LOL the way I was looking at the chart was hit or miss. pikachu yl mario etc being = to m2 was just wrong and therefore inaccurate. than using the 7 point system. It moves the MUs that are closer into the miss zone. So MUs that were dis adv for m2 got moved into the equal zone.
MOre accurate for me would be like pichu vs cast<. All of them are right and accurate but less precise.
So I guess I scaled from worst to best, and other ppl scaled from best to worst?
make sense?
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Looks like we are voting between the 5-level vs 7-level classification chart?
I'm down for either the 5-level or the 7-level classification chart. I just prefer we avoid using matchup ratios (50-50 vs 60-40 vs 65-35) this time.
I'm down for either the 5-level or the 7-level classification chart. I just prefer we avoid using matchup ratios (50-50 vs 60-40 vs 65-35) this time.
GamerGuitarist7
Smash Champion
peach vs falcon on FD is even.
idea
Smash Master
honestly i'd be fine with the 7-level one too, it just seems unnecessary. the only >>> matchups are going to be high tiers vs. low tiers, and the last chart was plagued with discussion of poorly known matchups like those.
i just see it becoming something like "Fox Kirby is >>>" "No I think it's >>" x100 pages.
i just see it becoming something like "Fox Kirby is >>>" "No I think it's >>" x100 pages.
Here Rests A Cemetery
Banned via Administration
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- Dec 24, 2010
- Messages
- 41
What happened to the simple, concise system of mathematical ratios to determine matchups?
50:50 > 55:45 indicates an even matchup.
60:40 indicates a slight advantage.
70:30 or more indicates a major advantage.
With this system, there are no semantics to discuss, which inevitably gets the conversation side-tracked.
50:50 > 55:45 indicates an even matchup.
60:40 indicates a slight advantage.
70:30 or more indicates a major advantage.
With this system, there are no semantics to discuss, which inevitably gets the conversation side-tracked.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I like 7-level.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Which is why people argue so much
Winston
Smash Master
There's nothing simple or mathematical about this - you're just giving the things different names
Now, if you say that the ratios correspond to the expected number of games won by each side, then that actually means something. The issue there is that people have a really hard time relating their qualitative notions of difficulty with the expected number of wins. People tend to argue over things like 60:40 vs. 55:45 and in reality, nobody is able to tell the difference from those two from purely qualitative analysis. I don't think that approach really helps things.
_lemons
Smash Journeyman
I see the reasoning I think... Falcon loses platforms to camp on and to edge-cancel his recovery on, but he's still way faster than Peach. I'd say it's probably (lolarbitrarynumbers) 55:45, but I think that falls under even in this system?
Here Rests A Cemetery
Banned via Administration
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- 41
I understand the complications but:
This criteria has been used to analyze matchups for several years, and has been considerably more successful in weighing the correct values.
>> really is or isn't different than 60:40 and 70:30 correct? They're the same method, but one is more concise and easier to implement than arguing whether >> is as bad as >>>.
Because instead of actually discussing the matchups, people tend to nitpick the mathematical term used to devise ratios. So in short, it's useless and doesn't accomplish anything. Previously noted form of matchups actually got compiled and completed on a more consistent basis.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
You guys...
Okay, we'll convert BACK to 7, but keep the separate stages.
While I convert the chart, make new graphics, etc, you guys can argue about match-ups some more.
Again, I'M laying out what each represent, so we don't get more off-topic arguing.
= (Marth vs Fox, Fox vs Falco, Sheik vs Falco, etc)
> / < (Fox vs Sheik, Sheik vs Marth, Fox vs Jigglypuff)
>> / << (Sheik vs Ganondorf, Peach vs Ice Climbers)
>>> / <<< (Sheik vs Zelda, Marth vs Bowser, Fox vs Kirby)
I'll get my part done sometime today.
AND NO NUMBERS!
Okay, we'll convert BACK to 7, but keep the separate stages.
While I convert the chart, make new graphics, etc, you guys can argue about match-ups some more.
Again, I'M laying out what each represent, so we don't get more off-topic arguing.
= (Marth vs Fox, Fox vs Falco, Sheik vs Falco, etc)
> / < (Fox vs Sheik, Sheik vs Marth, Fox vs Jigglypuff)
>> / << (Sheik vs Ganondorf, Peach vs Ice Climbers)
>>> / <<< (Sheik vs Zelda, Marth vs Bowser, Fox vs Kirby)
I'll get my part done sometime today.
AND NO NUMBERS!
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
So from what I gather of this:
>>> ranges from sheik/zelda (winnable if sheik plays the MU entirely wrong) to fox/kirby (unwinnable)
>> ranges from sheik/ganon (winnable, but difficult) to peach/ICs (bordering on unwinnable)
> ranges from fox/sheik (considered to be relatively even) to sheik/marth (where most people say sheik has a notable advantage)
Seems about right?
>>> ranges from sheik/zelda (winnable if sheik plays the MU entirely wrong) to fox/kirby (unwinnable)
>> ranges from sheik/ganon (winnable, but difficult) to peach/ICs (bordering on unwinnable)
> ranges from fox/sheik (considered to be relatively even) to sheik/marth (where most people say sheik has a notable advantage)
Seems about right?
Here Rests A Cemetery
Banned via Administration
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The way I gather the information:
>>> indicates a hard counter. 80:20
>> indicates a moderately hard counter. 70:30
> indicates a soft counter. 60:40
= indicates even. 50:50 > 55:45.
Does that make sense? Other people may not archive data this way, but it helps me.
>>> indicates a hard counter. 80:20
>> indicates a moderately hard counter. 70:30
> indicates a soft counter. 60:40
= indicates even. 50:50 > 55:45.
Does that make sense? Other people may not archive data this way, but it helps me.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
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- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Here Rests A Cemetery
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2010
- Messages
- 41
Oh, because you disagree with the criteria, that makes it wrong?
The data is a lot more sensible and less semantic when it's organized that way.
But cool, suit yourself. I don't necessarily mind the current order of archiving data, but it's becoming annoying.
The data is a lot more sensible and less semantic when it's organized that way.
But cool, suit yourself. I don't necessarily mind the current order of archiving data, but it's becoming annoying.
Here Rests A Cemetery
Banned via Administration
- Joined
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Let me explain better. 
To me personally, it makes more sense. I'm not disagreeing with how it's currently done, or anything.
To me personally, it makes more sense. I'm not disagreeing with how it's currently done, or anything.
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
x.x update for G&W justice!
My opinions on G&W, will probably edit according to how people view < << and such
Fox
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <<
Dreamland <<<
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <<<
Sheik
Final Destination <<<
Battlefield <<<
Dreamland <<<
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <<
Falco
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <<
Dreamland <<<
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <<<
Marf
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <
Jiggs
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <
Dreamland <<
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Falcon
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
Peach
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <<
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Ganon
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <<
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
IC
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Samus
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Doc
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <<
Mario
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Luigi
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
DK
Final Destination =
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium <
Pika(scum)
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium <
YL
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium <
Link
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
Zelda
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium =
G&W
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams >>>>
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
M2
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium =
Yoshi
Final Destination >
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >
Roy
Final Destination >
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >>
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >
Ness
Final Destination >>
Battlefield >
Dreamland >>
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >>
Kirby
Final Destination >>
Battlefield >>
Dreamland >>>
Fountain of Dreams >>
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >>
Bowser
Final Destination >>
Battlefield >
Dreamland >>
Fountain of Dreams >>
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >>
Pichu
Final Destination >>
Battlefield >>
Dreamland >>
Fountain of Dreams >>
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >>
My opinions on G&W, will probably edit according to how people view < << and such
Fox
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <<
Dreamland <<<
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <<<
Sheik
Final Destination <<<
Battlefield <<<
Dreamland <<<
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <<
Falco
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <<
Dreamland <<<
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <<<
Marf
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <
Jiggs
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <
Dreamland <<
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Falcon
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
Peach
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <<
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Ganon
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <<
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
IC
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Samus
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Doc
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <<
Mario
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Luigi
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
DK
Final Destination =
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium <
Pika(scum)
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium <
YL
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium <
Link
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
Zelda
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium =
G&W
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams >>>>
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
M2
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium =
Yoshi
Final Destination >
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >
Roy
Final Destination >
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >>
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >
Ness
Final Destination >>
Battlefield >
Dreamland >>
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >>
Kirby
Final Destination >>
Battlefield >>
Dreamland >>>
Fountain of Dreams >>
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >>
Bowser
Final Destination >>
Battlefield >
Dreamland >>
Fountain of Dreams >>
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >>
Pichu
Final Destination >>
Battlefield >>
Dreamland >>
Fountain of Dreams >>
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >>
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Falcon vs Puff
Final Destination: <
Battlefield: <
Dream Land: </<<
Fountain of Dreams: </<<
Yoshi's Story: =
Pokemon Stadium: =/<
thoughts?
Final Destination: <
Battlefield: <
Dream Land: </<<
Fountain of Dreams: </<<
Yoshi's Story: =
Pokemon Stadium: =/<
thoughts?
Toomai
Smash Ace
Shall I point out that the charts aren't currently in order of the most recent tier list?
(as if anyone really cares)
(as if anyone really cares)
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
From my discussion with Gustav Wind: -
Ice Climbers < Luigi.
I don't know if he posted that already.
Also I firmly believe: -
Ice Climbers = Sheik.
Ice Climbers = Puff.
Ice Climbers = Falco.
Ice Climbers < Fox.
Ice Climbers << Peach.
Ice Climbers < Marth.
Ice Climbers = Doc.
Ice Climbers = Mario.
Ice Climbers < Samus.
Ice Climbers < Ganon.
Ice Climbers = Falcon.
Ice Climbers > DK.
Ice Climbers > Pikachu.
If anyone wants to talk about these, we can in this thread, through PM, or on AIM.
Ice Climbers < Luigi.
I don't know if he posted that already.
Also I firmly believe: -
Ice Climbers = Sheik.
Ice Climbers = Puff.
Ice Climbers = Falco.
Ice Climbers < Fox.
Ice Climbers << Peach.
Ice Climbers < Marth.
Ice Climbers = Doc.
Ice Climbers = Mario.
Ice Climbers < Samus.
Ice Climbers < Ganon.
Ice Climbers = Falcon.
Ice Climbers > DK.
Ice Climbers > Pikachu.
If anyone wants to talk about these, we can in this thread, through PM, or on AIM.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
^ i agree with everything in the first half of that post. i don't know anything about the second half characters so i can't comment on those
what are most people saying about the ICs vs sheik matchup nowadays?
what are most people saying about the ICs vs sheik matchup nowadays?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Needle, fair, and bair shut them down decently well. Sheik can at least keep pace with their bursts of ****.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
i see. next thing for you to do then is to evaluate each matchup on each neutral
have fun
have fun
makoforce
Smash Ace
since when was marth vs puff not in our favor or even
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Since M2K said so
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
No worries.i see. next thing for you to do then is to evaluate each matchup on each neutral
have fun
Ice Climbers vs Luigi
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Ice Climbers vs Sheik
Final Destination >
Battlefield =
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
Ice Climbers vs Puff
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium >
Ice Climbers vs Falco
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium =
Ice Climbers vs Fox
Final Destination =
Battlefield <
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Ice Climbers vs Peach
Final Destination <<
Battlefield <
Dreamland <<
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <<
Ice Climbers vs Marth
Final Destination =
Battlefield <
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium =
Ice Climbers vs Doc
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
Ice Climbers vs Mario
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
Ice Climbers vs Samus
Final Destination <
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
Ice Climbers vs Ganon
Final Destination =
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium <
Ice Climbers vs Falcon
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium =
Ice Climbers vs DK
Final Destination >
Battlefield >
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >
Ice Climbers vs Pikachu
Final Destination >
Battlefield >
Dreamland >
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >>
Pokemon Stadium >
Winston
Smash Master
With the new guidelines, a bit more effort in breaking it down by stage, and a lot more ambiguity:
Luigi vs. Fox
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <<
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Fox has a small but noticeable advantage vs. Luigi on every stage. FD reduces the advantage but doesn't bring it to even. Luigi has guaranteed followups from grab from 0-25ish and from 55ish+ on FD, but he still has trouble landing solid hits on Fox and KOing him assuming Fox DIs and techs correctly. His chaingrabbing ability isn't nearly as good as Marth, Peach, or Doc's.
Dreamland usually plays out as a < in practice, but I think if a Fox really was set on abusing the stage by camping efficiently it would be a <<.
Luigi vs. Sheik
Final Destination <
Battlefield <<
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <<
Sheik kinda ***** Luigi overall, and even more so when she has good platforms to work with. Dreamland's platforms being high is actually a good thing here for Luigi instead of a bad thing since Sheik can't short hop onto them.
Luigi vs. Falco
< for all
Platforms let Luigi be more offensive, as they let him move horizontally in the air (sort of), but they also let Falco be more defensive (since jumping on platforms tends to be quite safe) and combo Luigi a bit better. So, a solid < disadvantage all around.
Luigi vs. Marth
< for all
Marth beats Luigi, but it's not too bad, since he can hold his own vs Marth in the neutral game. Luigi does the best on Dreamland, but even then I wouldn't be comfortable saying that it's closer to even than Sheik vs. Fox.
Luigi vs. Jiggs
Final Destination >
Battlefield >
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >
I already wrote a big wall of text on this matchup in an earlier post. I think Luigi has a decent advantage on Yoshi's, it's evenish on Dreamland because of Jiggs living longer, and a slight advantage (Fox vs. Sheikish) elsewhere.
This is probably a bit controversial and I would be fine with > on Yoshi's, < on Dreamland, and = elsewhere I guess, but the feeling I get from playing the matchup is that it's slightly Luigi favored.
Luigi vs. Falcon
< for all
It's closer to even on the Yoshi's and FoD but not quite. Falcon outcombos Luigi in this matchup, and his aerial spam is more than adequate to defend against Luigi's approaches, especially when he has room to run.
Luigi vs. Peach
< for all
Not really qualified to comment on this one, but I feel like it's in Peach's favor on the neutrals.
Luigi vs. Ganon
< for all
same as above. Don't know enough about this matchup
Luigi vs. Ice Climbers
I pretty much agree with what Chivalruse on this. I don't think the matchup is terrible for ICs, but overall Luigi has a bit of an advantage I guess.
Luigi vs. Samus
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium =
I don't claim to know a ton about this matchup, but in a way it feels like a mirror match, in terms of how they control zones and such. Both have good CC games and good range on ftilt and can't combo each other. Luigi has stronger KO moves, but Samus gets to edgeguard, so I'll just go with the blast zones for the advantages.
Luigi vs. Fox
Final Destination <
Battlefield <
Dreamland <<
Fountain of Dreams <
Yoshi's Story <
Pokemon Stadium <
Fox has a small but noticeable advantage vs. Luigi on every stage. FD reduces the advantage but doesn't bring it to even. Luigi has guaranteed followups from grab from 0-25ish and from 55ish+ on FD, but he still has trouble landing solid hits on Fox and KOing him assuming Fox DIs and techs correctly. His chaingrabbing ability isn't nearly as good as Marth, Peach, or Doc's.
Dreamland usually plays out as a < in practice, but I think if a Fox really was set on abusing the stage by camping efficiently it would be a <<.
Luigi vs. Sheik
Final Destination <
Battlefield <<
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams <<
Yoshi's Story <<
Pokemon Stadium <<
Sheik kinda ***** Luigi overall, and even more so when she has good platforms to work with. Dreamland's platforms being high is actually a good thing here for Luigi instead of a bad thing since Sheik can't short hop onto them.
Luigi vs. Falco
< for all
Platforms let Luigi be more offensive, as they let him move horizontally in the air (sort of), but they also let Falco be more defensive (since jumping on platforms tends to be quite safe) and combo Luigi a bit better. So, a solid < disadvantage all around.
Luigi vs. Marth
< for all
Marth beats Luigi, but it's not too bad, since he can hold his own vs Marth in the neutral game. Luigi does the best on Dreamland, but even then I wouldn't be comfortable saying that it's closer to even than Sheik vs. Fox.
Luigi vs. Jiggs
Final Destination >
Battlefield >
Dreamland =
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium >
I already wrote a big wall of text on this matchup in an earlier post. I think Luigi has a decent advantage on Yoshi's, it's evenish on Dreamland because of Jiggs living longer, and a slight advantage (Fox vs. Sheikish) elsewhere.
This is probably a bit controversial and I would be fine with > on Yoshi's, < on Dreamland, and = elsewhere I guess, but the feeling I get from playing the matchup is that it's slightly Luigi favored.
Luigi vs. Falcon
< for all
It's closer to even on the Yoshi's and FoD but not quite. Falcon outcombos Luigi in this matchup, and his aerial spam is more than adequate to defend against Luigi's approaches, especially when he has room to run.
Luigi vs. Peach
< for all
Not really qualified to comment on this one, but I feel like it's in Peach's favor on the neutrals.
Luigi vs. Ganon
< for all
same as above. Don't know enough about this matchup
Luigi vs. Ice Climbers
I pretty much agree with what Chivalruse on this. I don't think the matchup is terrible for ICs, but overall Luigi has a bit of an advantage I guess.
Luigi vs. Samus
Final Destination =
Battlefield =
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams =
Yoshi's Story >
Pokemon Stadium =
I don't claim to know a ton about this matchup, but in a way it feels like a mirror match, in terms of how they control zones and such. Both have good CC games and good range on ftilt and can't combo each other. Luigi has stronger KO moves, but Samus gets to edgeguard, so I'll just go with the blast zones for the advantages.