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The New Match-Up Chart v2

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
How does GW beat DK, YL, PIKA, LINK, ZELDA and tie with m2?

I dont really see him having an adv vs any of them.

After playing it some more I came to the conclusion that GW is too light and EZ to edgeguard for m2. His shield is also too small to stop nair(its not literally unable to block nair >_<).

Overall he should lose to all of them.
 

Theftz22

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Hopewell, NJ
I just looked at the chart and let me say, this is the most ridiculously infeasible undertaking I have ever had the misfortune of glancing upon.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
I'm not sure why GaW should be blocking vs Mewtwo... ever.
I wasnt really getting into a discussion about it so I wasnt specific. GW would shield on a platform and get shield eaten by nair. If he lightshields you can do multiple ledgecanceled nairs from the added shield stun.

His aerials beat out all of m2s and his Dtilt is annoying. I think m2 has a tad more range but GW can CC pretty decently vs his weak spot dtilt.

Gw is a low tier marth imo, he just spaces aerials and **** vs m2.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I'm still not sure how Nair > Shield would ever really be a significant force in this MU. The only reason GaW has to be on a platform is for offensive positioning, movement, or for wavelanding away from Mewtwo. His duck goes under the baby shadow balls, so there's usually little pressure to leave the same horizontal plane as Mewtwo.

Mewtwo isn't exactly great at setting GaW up on platforms either, since GaW is so light. He can often just shake and land standing, or waveland, or whatever before he has to tech on platforms. So, again, there is a reduced need for GaW to shield in this MU.

Since Mewtwo mainly pokes with moves that GaW cannot punish from shield anyway (super spaced D-tilt), and wants to get grabs more than anything, I would think this is perhaps one of the few MUs that GaW isn't totally screwed by his abysmal shield. Mewtwo doesn't apply pressure very hard. His pressure usually comes from him being able to toss shadow balls at people and force jumps, moves, reflects, changed positioning, or some sort of response. GaW conveniently eliminates a lot of that by having such a non-committal answer to shadow balls - ducking them.

It might be close or Mewtwo favour anyway just because GaW is horrible but it seems like you haven't considered some of the key differences between GaW and characters that vaguely resemble GaW when evaluating your opinion of the MU.
 

Cactuarz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
876
Location
G&W House, Oklahoma
DK/Pika/YL/Link/Zelda G&W beats on like... FoD or YS just because G&W does really well on those stages. for the most part he loses in those matchups.

Remember, better G&W's don't sheild much, because they don't need to. Their weight hardly ever puts them in a tech position as KirbyKaze had said, and his high speed and movement ability helps a lot with... everything. It makes him playable haha.

YL can't keep G&W out with projectiles on FoD and YS (they **** G&W on levels that you can run away) and loses in the head to head fights (basically... YL nair vs G&W fair)

DK: Wins on FoD because of small blast zones on the sides, and high ceilings/floors which help a lot with recovery/living for G&W, but hurts DK a lot. G&W's range helps a lot in the matchup. G&W can also duck and get hit with the weak part of bair if they aren't ready for it for a free dtilt if they attack high. G&W can edge guard DK's recovery pretty well too with fair/nair/dair/bair cause of the disjointedness.

Pika: Pika wins the matchup, but he has a problem with G&W on yoshi's. G&W kills pika really well off the sides to fairs/dtilt to nair at 70ish%. I live in a state with 3 pika mains... it's an annoying matchup that consists of stopping each other's approaches, and not letting them usmash/usmash OoS/ WD OoS into usmash. If you don't let a pika usmash you (not that hard) it's an evenish matchup. Small states help you kill that little rat easily =D.

Link I don't know much about, and i have some issues with the matchup, but the rest of the G&Ws say it isn't a bad matchup so I went off what they say. FD/Dreamland G&W can't move as well, and FoD i think he still wins, just because of recovery/edge guarding/easier kills haha.

Zelda is pretty even to me, beats her on small stages where zelda can't space as well loses on FD/DL64 cause G&W can't move fast enough to keep in zelda's weak kick range. Personal opinion for me here since Zelda is my secondary (my cp for things like... samus) and I never got to play the matchup.

M2 beats G&W on FD/DL64 again, inability to kill the floaty thing (one of like 2 chars that can get out of dthrow/uthrow nair at kill%s) but loses on FoD and Yoshi's. G&W won't sheild in the matchup unless you're approaching with... maybe a bair haha. G&W mains learn to ignore the sheild button in general because it's a horrid thing haha. I'll MM you if i can ever go to portland when you show up =D or at Genesis 2 if you show up Kaostar =D.

Also my roomie isn't the best M2 in the world, but plays him enough for me to get a good feel of M2's physics

Vs Salepate, after the first... 4-5 matches where i was warming up i got mostly 1 stocked by his marth, occasionally winning a match vs him and soemtimes getting 2 stocked. we played maybe an hour of singles haha. I usually beat his fox 1-2 stock, sometimes losing depending on how he did haha. He's mad good o.o I want more practice on the marth matchup since I don't know it too well.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
KK-Well that analysis is pretty solid. I can agree with you that GW wouldnt need to shield as much, but that doesnt mean it wont happen. But if they refrain from shielding, whatever.

For the most part you can still uptilt, uair, or nair somebody coming down onto a platform(while below it) so nothing really changes. Since GW is so light he will go above platform heights at lower percents.

GW just is too light and upthrow is a motha***ka along with fair and uair. GW has way more priority but he is still outranged and his aerials are kinda laggy sometimes.

If GW was heavier, I think he would flat out just beat m2. but being super light were talking kill moves starting low 90's.

Idk I could just be underestimating the lil shadow *****.

@Cactuarz-I dont think GW beats M2 on FoD. M2 does pretty well there also and the sides and higher ceiling make it harder for GW to kill m2. On any of the standard stages If GW has to recover low its a kill. Also since GW is going to be sh aerialling whenever the platforms are low that could be a problem for him.

In order to make GW tech, u slam him with a ftilt, and this is one of the MUs I use fsmash because its got range to fend off credit card approaches lol.

You shoulda played me at Tourney play Portland. I was there. I got 7th losing to Bladewise(2nd) Salepate(4th) last game last stock. This was the set b4 he 2-0ed BO. We went even m2 marth in friendlies.


Also, I dont understand WHY GW does well on FoD. What is it about this stage that makes him good?
Also, how does he beat zelda on Yoshis story, isnt that one of her best stages. If he beats her there wouldnt he just beat her period?

The only GW I remember playing is Dj-combo's. which is pretty legit. But he doesnt main the character obviously.
 

Cactuarz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
876
Location
G&W House, Oklahoma
FoD is good for G&W since he gets easy kills of sides, and can live forever from vertical kills (where he lacks) the platforms are great for his amazing wavedash/lands and the small platforms give him a lot of room to edge cancel dairs/bairs when they're low so they can get that landing hit which makes them pretty safe if used right. the edge cancels and the general layout of the stage helps G&W a lot with everything he does. Honestly m2 beats G&W by being annoying with shadowballs and teleports, his moves are slower than G&W's and have less disjointed range to boot. fitlt/dtilt are m2's best stops of approaching in the matchup, aside from those stupid shadowballs. and G&W's aerials end up trading with them a lot, which is good for G&W against m2 imo. I'll just have to show you if we can ever meet up haha. Salepate is fun to play against ^_^ I'll play vs your m2 though, it'll be nice to play against low tiers that aren't freaking pika or roy... there's 3 pika mains and 3 roy secondaries in oregon x.x so BORING
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
2,261
Location
Sierra Vista AZ
I.......HHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEE... fighting Game & Watch with Mewtwo... that thing it tuff!!!!!!!?!?!?!?

then again, I don't wanna say I know that MU or not.. so Idk, you'll have to ask the other Mewtwo players.... oh wait I dont play M2.. lol nvm ignore this ><;

btw

@Cactuarz - I know you don't know me, but I know you.. Fan of your G&W.. just lettin ya know :)

Woooooooot Go, Go, Go
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
Aight, I can agree with most of that. But Ive learned not to try to compete with GW in the air because u dont win. M2 vs GW CC dtilts are about even, I think m2 beats him out max percent wise by a little bit and his range is just a tad bit longer(safe usable range)

If GW is approaching with fair Id use Fsmash because its crazy disjointed as well. GW is one of the few characters I like using Fsmashes against because he is mad light and still gets a bit of knock back, and its able to beat his moves.

I would approach with Dtilt/ftilt but not really try to stop your approaches.

Like you said, spam sbs and teleport mix ups and keep GW guessing. M2 doesnt have the ability to stop GWs aerials, (except with fsmash, at higher percents Id be willing to risk the bair) so he mainly maneuvers away from them and attempts to counter. and then GW starts dying at like 93 from fairs on FD and m2 would eat him around the ledge while GW is offstage.


But Im sure we will get to play b4 Genesis 2. OR is only like 3 hours away, altho I dont kno where southerlin is lol
 

Cactuarz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
876
Location
G&W House, Oklahoma
@Vectorman... I know you... I love you... babies? We need to see each other at gen 2 <3 I really wanna see your yoshi, I always wanted to get good with it <3 Keep repping that baby!

Also you can't be aggressive with M2 vs G&W haha, camp it out and stick to big stages and it's not so bad. I liked your m2 too back when you played it =p

@Kaostar when you say cc dtilts are even, but max % tops his out, are you saying what %'s break CC? I have a list in the G&W boards that show what % ranges G&W's dtilt puts them into pratfall lol. M2 CC'ing will fall from 35-67 (%'s after attack, fresh dtilt does... 12?) so basically he falls at 25... I made a giant list when i was really studying jab resets lol.

dtilt/ftilt are your best choices vs G&W's fair, his dair you can sheild> DJ nair i think well, but ya gotta watch out for edge cancels/landing hitbox/random things XD. I'm not too big on approaching with fairs myself, but they're still a staple, even in my G&W ^_^.

Hopefully we play, cause Sutherlin is another 3 hours south of Portland. if not Gen 2 will be good. My roomie will be there and will wanna see me lose to m2... he'll be cheering for you since he hates m2 vs G&W with a passion haha.

I think small side stages (FoD/YS) are on G&W's side since if I fall off the stage and need to up b that stock is basically gone, and I probably won't kill you off the top anyways XD. battlefield is really even, PS is between even and m2's favor, but I don't care since it's not a nuetral.

G&W destroys m2 on brinstar and KJ64 though ;) my 2 favorite stages haha! Def an even matchup when you take cp's into account. I still think even/VERY slightly m2's favor overall on nuetrals. Thank god I can ban FD =p.

Also I love you vectorman <3
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
I guess I'll comment since I've done more then enough GW vs DK moneymatches and I have some GW knowledge myself (<3 you Dire). I hope my DK bias doesn't take over...
DK: Wins on FoD because of small blast zones on the sides, and high ceilings/floors which help a lot with recovery/living for G&W, but hurts DK a lot. G&W's range helps a lot in the matchup. G&W can also duck and get hit with the weak part of bair if they aren't ready for it for a free dtilt if they attack high.
That's if they autocancel Bair. DKs never do that.
Other then that Bair hurts GW pretty bad since he doesn't have the pressure or speed to beat Bair ****. I also think it's funny how Bair can hit you when you shield haha. I know DK has a pretty horrid shield, but GW... damn.

I don't see how DK doesn't win on FD, PS, and DL. Dash dancing camping into grabs alone is pretty bad for GW. With so much room for DK to move, Fairs and Dtilts (disjointed hitboxes and all considered) aren't going to help much vs a well spacing DK. GW dies early to cargo throw + Uair on PS and FD. On DL, have fun trying to kill DK while he has a much easier time damaging and safely KOing.
Characters with vertical recovery are the easiest for DK to edgeguard/gimp, simply with a ledgedropped Up B. Also there's the fact that if DK cargo downthrows them off the stage (even at 0%) and grabs the edge, they all need to double jump + up B to make it back. If they try to sweetspot, they risk getting gimped. If they land on stage, free punish.

Yoshi Stories is cute. Imo, GW's best edgeguard vs DK is dtilt. If you jump out to hit DK with an aerial for pretty much any character, expect to get hit from an Up B. What many don't know is that DK can float a decent space away from the edge and still grab it. GW's gay as dtilt still hits us, so we have to hug against the stage. Anyways, on YS, the slant makes it ******** for GW and he doesn't even need to read for which way we're recovering. Good thing he dies super early. It's because of that reason I would say DK still has an advantage here, especially since DK isn't like Falco (don't take this the wrong way) where he can accidentally end up offstage and die from 1 hit.

FoD... I wouldn't say is that bad for GW. Ceiling is really high and the platforms kinda **** up DK's approach.

Looking at your post on the first page which listed everything, it's basically saying GW beats DK, which is something myself and any other DK would highly disagree with. GW's weight, mobility, and terrible defenses (shield/rolls etc.) carry more weight then his disjointed hitboxes. We think it's at least 60/40, we should have settled on the matchup itself before going over the stages. I'm pretty sure we left the matchup listed as DKs favor on the previous thread, so the stage discussion should be based on that. I'm assuming you think it's GW's favor?
 

Cactuarz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
876
Location
G&W House, Oklahoma
DK

Final Destination =
Battlefield <
Dreamland <
Fountain of Dreams >
Yoshi's Story =
Pokemon Stadium <

I think G&W does really really well vs DK on FoD, and ok on yoshis, the other stages are in dk's favor, but idk how it goes on FD, if you say DK does great on it i'll take your opinion and say DK > G&W on FD, but DK i dont' think could handle it well on FoD
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
Yeah, I can see how G&W can combo; he has really nice mobility. I'd like to see what QERB could do vs M2K or IB, etc.
 

Cactuarz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
876
Location
G&W House, Oklahoma
nice G&W ^_^ a little nervous on edge guarding but good otherwise. saddens me to see G&W go down farther on the new tier list =c below yoshi now haha
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
Combo-wise, how he can get around Marth, etc. Stop being so hostile.
 

TunaCasserole

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
284
Location
Scarsdale, NY
Honestly OTG, if QERB went to Cambodia and learned that quick and adaptive playstyle I really think he'd have a shot at beating M2k and other top marths. Absolutely.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Just speaking from experience, QERB is a good player, but he's not a top player. I think he's around my level and I agree I'd like to see how he stacks up against great Marths, but you have to keep in mind that he's not quite Axe with Pikachu or anything.

I feel like if there was an actual Axe level player playing GnW he could rise to like DK level of good or something.
 

TunaCasserole

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
284
Location
Scarsdale, NY
We should definitely start a good player fund for QERB to get him a round trip ticket to Cambodia so he can learn how to be quick and adaptive. I mean if we can accomplish that, he'll get SO ****in' quick and adaptive that he'll take out all the top marths no problem. If you haven't noticed yet guys, the key is to be quick and ADAPTIVE...see that's the key.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
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8,413
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College Park, MD

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
Lol OTG, you're dumb. Anyone in the world can tell you QERB would get destroyed by the top Marths. The interest would be seeing what he could do once he lands a hit and such since Cactuarz suggests the G&W/Marth match-up isn't quite as horrendous as it seems.

If you want to be a douche, feel free to stop reading/posting here and going back to failing as a Doc main and Smasher in general.
 
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