The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Shadic]

Exactly. I don't see the problem.

 

[kupo15]

Isn't the keep fresh bonus just making moves that you don't use have a bit more damage/knockback? If so, I don't see the problem with it. It's the positive reinforcement of stale moves.

No it does more than just the killing power for finishers

Me
I was originally for the fresh bonus for attacks but I am no longer. Why? There is no control. You don't know exactly when your attack is fresh either. It just happens. Lets say I need to use this one move to continue the combo and the move is fresh. I have no choice but to use a fresh attack. The problem is that unexpected increase in kb or even expected ones have a negative affect on the combo game.

You are mainly using damage as a judge and you know how far your moves should send someone and a fresh move will make you lose the combo because they are sent further than expected. This I feel limits your options because if you chose another move then the ideal move, you may lose the combo because the set up to the next move is not as good but if you use the ideal move, the fresh bonus still puts them in an undesired spot.

I am not against the fresh idea concept, I am against how fresh hits are implemented. You should have a choice whether or not to use the fresh hit or not. It's great for kill moves, but bad on combos when you have such limited control

 

[Finns7]

His Dsmash isnt the main problem to me. His arieal game is more op than that

 

[Adapt]

btw Falco400.... I'm pretty sure that Zelda's and ROB's d-smashes and possibly sheik's all come out on frame 4.
Source: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202204

Personally, I think one of the reduced stale systems is best, and a 3-5 frame buffer.
I wish there was a better way to balance bowser than the thick skin, but I agree he needs some sort of a buff

 

[Eaode]

actually I agree with Kupo. although the fresh thing keeps brawl's "save you kill move" mentality, the fresh move is really unexpected, because I'm assuming nobody remembers the last 10 attacks they used.

 

[Adapt]

actually I agree with Kupo. the fresh thing keeps brawl's "save you kill move" mentality, the fresh move is really unexpected, because I'm assuming nobody remembers the last 10 attacks they used.

Not exactly, but I do keep track of how much I use potential kill moves when playing brawl. I can normally tell as ZSS how many times I have used bair in the last 10 moves because it is my number one kill move and I need to know the relative percentage to use it as a finisher.

 

[Blank Mauser]

If we were to keep fresh attacks, I'd want the attacks to be fresh once when you spawn and then its gone after you use it.

Otherwise the move queue system is dumb in general. Moves like G&W's Up-B and Uair both freshen his smashes up even if they don't hit. Other fast moves like Ness' and Lucas' dtilts are just going to be spammed, especially on damageable terrain. I don't think it encourages variety as much as it encourages spamming/stalling considering most kill moves are just going to be combo'd into anyways. I do like the idea of some fresh moves being saved for better combo'ing and kill moves, but just not implemented in this way.

 

[The_Guide]

I just noticed the mod to Link's up-b isn't in the latest set. Was it decided to be unnecessary? Is it not working? I think I've missed something here .

 

[Almas]

Link's Up+B increase should be active in the current codeset.

 

[Blad01]

replies in red

1) I don't think stales moves are a stupid mechanic

2) Yeah, character balance... Bowser is repaed by combos but is powerful Balanced, isn't it ?

3) DSmash is really not his broken moves. DSmash spammers are really easy to deal with in Brawl, I say that as a player...
Playing MK in Brawl+ is probably where you see the limits of Brawl+ : A community can't recreate a game entirely. If you have to buff something... buff his Up B or something... Or just ban him, this time.

And where did you see that Jabs were supposed to be faster than Smashs ?

Not exactly, but I do keep track of how much I use potential kill moves when playing brawl. I can normally tell as ZSS how many times I have used bair in the last 10 moves because it is my number one kill move and I need to know the relative percentage to use it as a finisher.

This is the future of Brawl. I try to do the same with my FSmash / USmash as Falco.

 

[Eaode]

dsmash was way too fast and way too powerful and overall too spammable for someone with MK's focus on speed and combos. It's next to impossible to punish a dsmash (Unless MK is really stupid like throwing it out right in front of you while you're shielding or something lol) because it's so fast. now it has more cooldown so MK can't just throw it out whenever he wants and hope for the kill.

 

[Greenpoe]

3) DSmash is really not his broken moves. DSmash spammers are really easy to deal with in Brawl, I say that as a player...

Depends on the character. Some characters simply are not fast enough to punish MK's d-smash. (For some, if they try, he can d-smash or use another attack and punish the attempt. THAT is why it needs bonus ending lag.)

 

[Adetque]

Would it be possible to make a Melee style stale move system? Only damage being reduced and not the knockback would solve most of these problems, including Ness/Lucas d-tilts, needing to memorize reliable kill percentages for each character, and still somewhat take away spamming.

Also, I'd stick with the 10 frame buffer...

 

[Eaode]

Would it be possible to make a Melee style stale move system? Only damage being reduced and not the knockback would solve most of these problems, including Ness/Lucas d-tilts, needing to memorize reliable kill percentages for each character, and still somewhat take away spamming.

Also, I'd stick with the 10 frame buffer...

Damage only staling would be ideal, but so far no headway has been made in finding out a way to do this, and it's pretty low-priority as we can just use no-stale.

a large buffer window allows you to play sloppily, as well as making it possible to make stupidly fatal mistakes like trying to shieldgrab but being pushed off the edge and Nair-ing to your death etc. you don't need a large buffer window, just learn to time your attack properly.

 

[Revven]

Damage only staling would be ideal, but so far no headway has been made in finding out a way to do this, and it's pretty low-priority as we can just use no-stale.

a large buffer window allows you to play sloppily, as well as making it possible to make stupidly fatal mistakes like trying to shieldgrab but being pushed off the edge and Nair-ing to your death etc. you don't need a large buffer window, just learn to time your attack properly.

Not only that but, with 10 frames of buffering + the new aerial momentum code and I can see Falcons accidentally Nairing with momentum if they only meant to move forward with a jump instead of dash and jump and thus, messing up/dying.

Speaking of which, we really do need stronger pull back on momentum, I find that what's there now just isn't enough like in Melee was. As in, pushing back on the stick should just completely cancel the momentum, IMO.

 

[Adapt]

2) Yeah, character balance... Bowser is repaed by combos but is powerful Balanced, isn't it ?
3) DSmash is really not his broken moves. DSmash spammers are really easy to deal with in Brawl, I say that as a player...
Playing MK in Brawl+ is probably where you see the limits of Brawl+ : A community can't recreate a game entirely. If you have to buff something... buff his Up B or something... Or just ban him, this time.

I agree with some of this... Bowser may be strong, but he is clearly at a disadvantage in brawl+. I think he should be buffed, but I don't like the "thick skin" (and for that matter, I also disagree with "flimsy armor"). The ending lag on d-smash isn't a bad nerf though... it was an unusually fast and strong move before. It's not the main problem I agree, but it was voted as the best d-smash in the game a couple months ago.

There are probably better ways of buffing Bowser and Nerfing MK, but until we have a proper move knockback modifier not much can be done I don.t think.

1) I don't think stales moves are a stupid mechanic [....]
I try to do the same with my FSmash / USmash as Falco.

I figure most if not all good players keep track of at least a few of their killing moves. I think that stale moves rewards knowledge of a character and helps create a sense of strategy in brawl. This is a good thing. I do however think that brawl's system is a bit too strong. There is a code to modify the strength of the degeneration that should be used over the "no stale" code.

 

[Deleted member]

I would prefer a buffer window of around 3 to 5 frames.

 

[Revven]

There is a code to modify the strength of the degeneration that should be used over the "no stale" code.

See, thing is Adapt, we tried that. We gave the system a chance. First we lowered it by 3/4, that wasn't strong enough (still VERY noticeable), then we tried 1/2 (STILL noticeable and ridiculous for tilts) and then we tried 1/4 (still VERY noticeable). "If we went any lower, what's the point? We may as well just get rid of it." Is what we said a whole two months ago when we decided this. You missed the discussion on it and it's pretty much set in stone. We agreed upon a stale in damage only when we have no other codes to do and no stale in knockback. It's an arbitrary system and just needed to go, it's still too strong even when weakened.

 

[Ulevo]

I would prefer a buffer window of around 3 to 5 frames.

I think this may be ideal as well. I'm finding that 1 Frame simply isn't reasonable when trying to perform precise tactics.

Also, with regards to stale moves, it limits specific characters and how they can compete, especially with heavyweights. Samus, Sonic, Squirtle, and some other characters have limited kill moves to use. And often times their kill moves are their most useful damage dealers too, making it difficult to knock opponents out by either wasting valuable effort spending it trying to relieve decay, or by reducing knock back when attempting to kill. It should probably stay removed.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Question, are you going to get the gamepace to be faster, a bit more like 1.15 or are you keeping that slow pace?

 

[Problem2]

<paraphrase>
can't can't can't
no no no
</paraphrase>

Sure. Whatever you say

 

[zxeon]

Ulevo you just need to practice your inputs are too sloppy. I don't ever screw up my combos anymore. Even a buffer of 1 frame makes you duck after SHFFLs. Just practice and you'll get used to it and be grateful for the tightened control.

 

[kupo15]

Speaking of which, we really do need stronger pull back on momentum, I find that what's there now just isn't enough like in Melee was. As in, pushing back on the stick should just completely cancel the momentum, IMO.

No we don't. Momentum at 95% has the same momentum control as melee falcon did. The control is the same believe it or not

 

[CountKaiser]

Ulevo you just need to practice your inputs are too sloppy. I don't ever screw up my combos anymore. Even a buffer of 1 frame makes you duck after SHFFLs. Just practice and you'll get used to it and be grateful for the tightened control.

TBH, 1 frame buffer isn't that different from 0 frame buffer. It's only 1 frame, a 60th of a second, it's not going to make a vast difference.

The reason why people want a 3 buffer system or so is because 1 buffer feels very stiff. Nothing is fluid in 1 buffer, at least not from what I can tell. 3 frame buffer, on the other hand, feels so much smoother and nicer.

I thought the only reason 1 frame was used was because anything above it was glitchy. I was told that the one liner worked perfectly with 3 frame buffer. Go try it out.

 

[kupo15]

1 buffer is very smooth for me. You just need to adjust

 

[The Cape]

From being a Melee player I can assure you that a 0 frame buffer has the ability to be much more fluid, just requires more practice. It also lowers the possibility of screwing up stupid things as mentioned before in the thread.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Kupo's response to Falco400-He means when you're trying to slow down.

It's really noticable with characters who have decent default airspeed in melee (I'll use Marth as an example).

If you do a dashing fair with Marth, and immediately hold backwards (while c-sticking forward), you not only lose all of your forward momentum before your jump ends, but you actually move backwards for a little bit and end up in pretty much the same spot that you started.

Some of the faster dash jumpers (like Falcon, Fox, ect) didn't lose all of their forward momentum, but the did lose a significant portion of it by simply holding backwards. I think that's what Falco400 is looking for. It gives you more control of your dash jump...after doing the dash jump. Holding forward (or no direction) retains normal dash jump properties (normal momentum with a small deceleration rate), while holding back drastically increases the deceleration rate.

 

[kupo15]

@Kupo's response to Falco400-He means when you're trying to slow down.

It's really noticable with characters who have decent default airspeed in melee (I'll use Marth as an example).

If you do a dashing fair with Marth, and immediately hold backwards (while c-sticking forward), you not only lose all of your forward momentum before your jump ends, but you actually move backwards for a little bit and end up in pretty much the same spot that you started.

Some of the faster dash jumpers (like Falcon, Fox, ect) didn't lose all of their forward momentum, but the did lose a significant portion of it by simply holding backwards. I think that's what Falco400 is looking for. It gives you more control of your dash jump...after doing the dash jump. Holding forward (or no direction) retains normal dash jump properties (normal momentum with a small deceleration rate), while holding back drastically increases the deceleration rate.

I realize that but using falcon as a comparison, I saw now difference in slow down speed/time between melee and brawl and I have done some thorough research on this.

 

[Swordplay]

Momentum doesn't have to be "melee" to be good. We can make it whatever we want. If you want to make everything like melee, you might as well call it melee 2.0 without wavedashing and not brawl+.

I like it the way it is.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Now, I recently found this thread, and I've been lurking it and reading it for a bit just so I can get a feel for where the conversation is going and at least do some commentary with a little bit of context behind me. I don't want to sound like a pretentious idiot/ignorant jerk, etc.

With that said, congrats and doing this. All of this, everyone that is involved. I think this is what will save the game. Seriously. Because after recently watching the metagame at its peak (@ BIO 2) I witnessed DSF simply tossing grenades and winning whole sets because of it. vBrawl is competitive, sure, but not very entertaining at a high meta-game, not very deep, and not very fun (unless I'm playing Lucas, my main, or Meta Knight.) Right now, I feel as if I'm slowly losing faith in a game I'm gradually no longer enjoying, and the only thing keeping it alive is the vigil of these fine coders/hackers/what-have-you.

I'm all behind this project.

But, I fear as of right now there is a lack of direction. Like, I get what you guys are doing, and I know why you're doing it, but where is it headed? You want to make it competitive but right now, Brawl+ is only slightly more popular than standardized item play. But worse than item play, we have tons of a different people having tons of different meanings for Brawl+. Is it Melee 2.0, is it this, is it that? I know the intention is to have Brawl be its own game, and that's fine, and Brawl+ is only meant to augment the experience, and that's great, but with the way certain changes are being implemented, don't you think some people will miss the point?

Right now my biggest concern is just balancing. Obviously, some things needed to be changed ASAP (grab-releases, standing infinites, Meta Knight, Snake's tilts) but after the obvious, is there an agenda? Are you going to avoid auto-cancels/wave-dash, etc? I think you should. Brawl is its own game. Leave it at that. Changing hitstun, weight, moves, and all that is fine in my book, but if the changes keep leaning towards momentum or movespeed why not just play Melee? Do you really want to play a Melee Poketrainer that badly?

These have been my couple cents and I hope my questions will be answered or discussed over. Flame me if you wish.

 

[GHNeko]

Now, I recently found this thread, and I've been lurking it and reading it for a bit just so I can get a feel for where the conversation is going and at least do some commentary with a little bit of context behind me. I don't want to sound like a pretentious idiot/ignorant jerk, etc.

With that said, congrats and doing this. All of this, everyone that is involved. I think this is what will save the game. Seriously. Because after recently watching the metagame at its peak (@ BIO 2) I witnessed DSF simply tossing grenades and winning whole sets because of it. vBrawl is competitive, sure, but not very entertaining at a high meta-game, not very deep, and not very fun (unless I'm playing Lucas, my main, or Meta Knight.) Right now, I feel as if I'm slowly losing faith in a game I'm gradually no longer enjoying, and the only thing keeping it alive is the vigil of these fine coders/hackers/what-have-you.

I'm all behind this project.

But, I fear as of right now there is a lack of direction. Like, I get what you guys are doing, and I know why you're doing it, but where is it headed? You want to make it competitive but right now, Brawl+ is only slightly more popular than standardized item play. But worse than item play, we have tons of a different people having tons of different meanings for Brawl+. Is it Melee 2.0, is it this, is it that? I know the intention is to have Brawl be its own game, and that's fine, and Brawl+ is only meant to augment the experience, and that's great, but with the way certain changes are being implemented, don't you think some people will miss the point?

Right now my biggest concern is just balancing. Obviously, some things needed to be changed ASAP (grab-releases, standing infinites, Meta Knight, Snake's tilts) but after the obvious, is there an agenda? Are you going to avoid auto-cancels/wave-dash, etc? I think you should. Brawl is its own game. Leave it at that. Changing hitstun, weight, moves, and all that is fine in my book, but if the changes keep leaning towards momentum or movespeed why not just play Melee? Do you really want to play a Melee Poketrainer that badly?

These have been my couple cents and I hope my questions will be answered or discussed over. Flame me if you wish.

I can't flame you! Your avatar is adorable!

I will say this, I do believe there is direction. IIRC, B+ has a SBR+, made specifically for this project. What this project could use is more intelligent heads that actually know **** about the game in order to help it steer clear from issues. That's why its imperitive that we get a few big names who arent all talk and know what 2+2 is.

That's my thoughts on it.

As for balancing, thats a proccess that will only show the best results at a later time. Right now, we're just trying to build a ground. Once that ground is formed, we make our god **** castle slowly over the course of the months until its down and we reign supreme. :3

 

[goodoldganon]

I love Momentum and think it's great and a necessity but I will admit with it, the game feels a little far from Brawl. Either way, I digress. There is an agenda, you are welcome to look at Kupo's topic to get an idea on what we have left to fix, but honestly the project is coming close to it's end. I'd say it's close to 90% finished, with a few tweaks here and there and then we will finally have a 'GOLD' release that will be made to the public.

There are a lot of people like me who love testing out all the changes, but I feel when there is a group of us that can say 'Here is Brawl+ and what we wanted it to be. We hope you guys can enjoy it.' Then unless there are some unforseen circumstances, I wouldn't imagine any more serious changes.

 

[krlos F.]

Thank u Almas!! u know I like a lot your codes, it feels very similar to melee, it's more fun and more balanced... altought it supposed to the sideB Robot attack go so far? is like a Falco's sideB, feels great anyway xD

 

[zxeon]

The Robot side B thing isn't entirely on purpose. It'll probably be eliminated in a future build.

 

[krlos F.]

oh I see... but looks good!... the new momentum code is awesome, C Falcon momentum is very similar to melee's C.Falcon... I think u guys are very close to finish the codeset that we want... keep like that! xD

 

[bLeAkWuN]

Does anybody know what i was tlkn about with the whole "Bowser side B infinite jump with the grab potentially connecting" thing? Bowser takes about 8 frames for the hit of the side B to connect...so for this approach to be used, he needs the full 10 frames...this move allows Bowser to approach projectile happy characters... do any other bowser mains feel like this is essential?

 

[Starscream]

From being a Melee player I can assure you that a 0 frame buffer has the ability to be much more fluid, just requires more practice. It also lowers the possibility of screwing up stupid things as mentioned before in the thread.

I couldn't agree more but apparently 0 buffer removes instant aerials. I don't believe anyone has tried to rectify this but even if it was I'm sure it would still be rejected. I personally love 0 buffer, crouching after SHFLLs sucks ***.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I've already gotten used to buffer and crouching after SHFF's is no longer problem. Just as 0 buffer has the potential to be fluid, so does having 3-5 buffer. You just have to get used to it. I think too many people are focusing on SHFF'ing, but as a vBrawl player I'm much more about aerial patterns/mindgames that require instant aerials or good buffering otherwise it feels unresponsive.

I personally find buffer to make the game more fluid, and that more people just need to get used to it and realize the options you make so hard with 1 buffer. Buffer is essential to Brawl and created a lot of the tactics used in vBrawl and theres no point in making the game feel so awkward. I feel like I have to mash every time I'm in the air now, and it only gets worst when I'm trying to land into another move. 0 buffer has also messed up my recovery many times.

 

[Revven]

Some of the faster dash jumpers (like Falcon, Fox, ect) didn't lose all of their forward momentum, but the did lose a significant portion of it by simply holding backwards. I think that's what Falco400 is looking for. It gives you more control of your dash jump...after doing the dash jump. Holding forward (or no direction) retains normal dash jump properties (normal momentum with a small deceleration rate), while holding back drastically increases the deceleration rate.

Yes yes yes yes! This is what I want! If I can't do this, my muscle memory is going to instinctively and perhaps on accident at times dash jump to try and SHFFL an aerial like in regular Brawl and I'm going to try and hold back like in Melee with Falcon and I'll just careen off the stage and thus put myself in a terrible situation. I KNEW it was in Melee and I don't know why kupo won't get it added to the code (asking PW to do it that is). It is essential to characters with high momentum like Falcon, can we PLEASE just do this? Holding back so it slows you down as strong as Melee's is so when I dash jump to try and catch you into the air with a Uair, I don't go flying past you.

It. Needs. To. Be. In. It's not a question of "I don't like it." It's necessary, kupo.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Exactly! This is the exact idea I was proposing. Basically we would have the same control of Brawl but still have the advantages of aerial momentum. I don't see any reason to not put it in considering it can already be done in Spunit's code with airdodging, and without it we just nerf certain characters(*CoughSonicCough*). It would also help with newer players so they don't go flying all the time.

Maybe you guys don't have a problem with momentum, but you guys don't play the fastest character in the game.

Edit: Also Melee had more control over momentum because of its shorter short hops, faster fast falls, and all that jazz so saying this code works by imitating Melee doesn't exactly mean its the best way. In Melee you could just land and it'd be more effective in stopping.