Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[RDK]

thats not true, 64 had a competitive comunity, just because it was super tiny doesnt mean that it wasnt there...

You're not getting the point of my post.

My point was that with the enormous knowledge base we have about competitive Melee, Brawl's metagame should be expected to start with a pretty big lead, instead of coming from virtually nowhere. The tiny 64 community has nothing to do with it.

 

[cman]

Wow, Marth had a dominance rating of 50% early on?? That sure changed.

Marth had a 50% ish dominance rating in melee, not brawl.

 

[da K.I.D.]

and my point is that the few people who had a huge knowledge base in 64, should have been expected to start with a pretty big lead as opposed to the majority who came in brand new to melee "coming from virtually nowhere"

its the same situation, but i feel as if you are just disregarding it because their wasnt as many people in the "super competitive in 64" crowd

 

[viparagon]

if marth had a 50 dominance rating, there is no way MK should be banned

 

[Zankoku]

and my point is that the few people who had a huge knowledge base in 64, should have been expected to start with a pretty big lead as opposed to the majority who came in brand new to melee "coming from virtually nowhere"

its the same situation, but i feel as if you are just disregarding it because their wasnt as many people in the "super competitive in 64" crowd

How many people looked into the specifics of Smash 64? People figured out Z-Canceling and Isai dominated everyone. Hell, there wasn't even a message board to share these findings, so everyone was learning Smash 64 from scratch. There weren't even many tourneys in the beginning of Melee. MD/VA held its first back in August 2002, nearly a year after the game's initial release. What knowledge base did people have to work on? Only their own personal experience.

 

[Dynomite]

no, not until snake is banned.

 

[TeeVee]

C3 really made me change my opinion ; he shouldn't be banned.


(I want him banned for my Rob though <_<)

 

[Face124]

The gap has closed by about 4% since I last looked, what has changed people's minds?

 

[Master Raven]

I don't even think the poll is that relevant anyway.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Possible new infinite on MK (and other characters). This is similar to waveshining, for that in theory you can reverse the person and head the other direction on a stage instead of just hitting them off the edge. This is also NOT effected by most platforms (BF/SV for example).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GzdTccsYc8

And they say new **** can't be found. Granted, it needs to go through the rigor of testing still, but at the very least it is a useful technique (even if you can't 100% get the lock) that could lead to stuff like this: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=yRTpdNIL_as

Should be a better, sicker video made by Hylian coming out soonish.

 

[Zankoku]

Haha, malformed ID. You made an abbreviated link, AZ.

 

[_Phloat_]

I saw that AZ, that is awesome... Any way to make the smash lab test that first, like a request system?

 

[AlphaZealot]

fixed the link.

And I don't know, I didn't even know it was possible to frame test things in Brawl like we could in Melee with AR. Has this changed?

 

[da K.I.D.]

this just looks like one more reason to ban walls...

and it looks like it will take too long for diddy to reverse it, giving the opponent time to get out.

either way this has nothing to do with banning MK, and more to do with banning items IMO

 

[Tenki]

but

combos in brawl

why would someone wanna ban that? :3

 

[illinialex24]

fixed the link.

And I don't know, I didn't even know it was possible to frame test things in Brawl like we could in Melee with AR. Has this changed?

Alpha, I do it with slow-mo and 1/2 speed in training. We don't have the hacks to get exact numbers but you can tell roughly when an attack starts and ends. Something different will happen and so you can get numbers within a frame or so.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Well, essentially here is what you can do to confirm whether it is inescapable:
1. Find the number of frames from when the banana first hits to the time MK is capable of rolling (ie recovering from the trip)-also I think the first few frames in a roll are punishable so keep that in mind to.
2. Find the number of frames it takes Diddy to regrab and rethrow the banana. One problem for this step is performing the technique ideally, which requires minute/fast inputs like fast falling or DIing to the sides to reposition Diddy. However, if you add up:
-Frames to land after regrabbing nana from hitting opponent
-Frames it takes to jump/leave the ground
-Frames it takes to throw nana back down + a frame or two where the nana travels in the air
Then you should reach the number of frames. Right now it looks very close to either working or...well...not working. We will know more when Hylian posts his video/more people become efficient at performing it.

Also this can lead to an auto-spike sorta that is pretty sick.

 

[illinialex24]

Well, essentially here is what you can do to confirm whether it is inescapable:
1. Find the number of frames from when the banana first hits to the time MK is capable of rolling (ie recovering from the trip).
2. Find the number of frames it takes Diddy to regrab and rethrow the banana. One problem for this step is performing the technique ideally, which requires minute/fast inputs like fast falling or DIing to the sides to reposition Diddy. However, if you add up:
-Frames to land after regrabbing nana from hitting opponent
-Frames it takes to jump/leave the ground
-Frames it takes to throw nana back down + a frame or two where the nana travels in the air
Then you should reach the number of frames. Right now it looks very close to either working or...well...not working. We will know more when Hylian posts his video/more people become efficient at performing it.

If this is done at 1/2 speed in training we can figure this all out.

 

[Dojo]

The gap has closed by about 4% since I last looked, what has changed people's minds?

People are seeing more and more that he can be beaten.

Well, essentially here is what you can do to confirm whether it is inescapable:
1. Find the number of frames from when the banana first hits to the time MK is capable of rolling (ie recovering from the trip)-also I think the first few frames in a roll are punishable so keep that in mind to.
2. Find the number of frames it takes Diddy to regrab and rethrow the banana. One problem for this step is performing the technique ideally, which requires minute/fast inputs like fast falling or DIing to the sides to reposition Diddy. However, if you add up:
-Frames to land after regrabbing nana from hitting opponent
-Frames it takes to jump/leave the ground
-Frames it takes to throw nana back down + a frame or two where the nana travels in the air
Then you should reach the number of frames. Right now it looks very close to either working or...well...not working. We will know more when Hylian posts his video/more people become efficient at performing it.

The single nana lock looks so amazing for setups. From the looks of it, as of now at least, it's going to advance Diddy quite a bit.

 

[Zankoku]

If this is done at 1/2 speed in training we can figure this all out.

You're a moron. The game interpolates frames whenever you slow down the speed in training mode, so you end up getting erroneous frames that you wouldn't ever see at x1 speed, even frame by frame. The way to test this involves something a lot less human-based than trying it at 1/2 speed.

 

[popsofctown]

People are seeing more and more that he can be beaten.

or, you aren't allowed to change your vote in the poll.

It just means antiban players check smashboards less frequently

 

[illinialex24]

You're a moron. The game interpolates frames whenever you slow down the speed in training mode, so you end up getting erroneous frames that you wouldn't ever see at x1 speed, even frame by frame. The way to test this involves something a lot less human-based than trying it at 1/2 speed.

Ok, I didn't know that. Thanks for calling me a moron for no reason.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea, be nice, just because its common knowledge to you doesnt meant everybody knows it...

 

[Zankoku]

I refuse to accept anyone giving false information when it pertains to data. That **** takes weeks to fix.

 

[illinialex24]

I refuse to accept anyone giving false information when it pertains to data. That **** takes weeks to fix.

Ok, does anybody have a 60 fps capture card???

 

[salaboB]

The single nana lock looks so amazing for setups. From the looks of it, as of now at least, it's going to advance Diddy quite a bit.

Can other characters do it too if they capture one of Diddy's bananas?

Say a Diddy main picks up an alt...

 

[AlphaZealot]

We haven't looked into that yet. One of the properties of Diddy's Dair is that is auto-cancels and has a wierd fast fall built into it.

 

[Santi]

I want to single nane lock =)

 

[BrawlLover]

Diddy can definitely prove to be a formidable foe for the great MK, however, if the MK is careful and diligent in his defense!, the MK will be victorious!

 

[AlphaZealot]

Because Diddy doesn't have among the safest approaches in the game, right? /sarcasm

 

[Master Raven]

AZ I think BrawlLover is just a troll account >_>

 

[_Phloat_]

Diddy can definitely prove to be a formidable foe for the great MK, however, if the MK is careful and diligent in his defense!, the MK will be victorious!

This thread needed a narrator.

 

[da K.I.D.]

always with the astute observations...

Can other characters do it too if they capture one of Diddy's bananas?

Say a Diddy main picks up an alt...

i think people are overlooking this, because a lot of characters has a SH ACable down air, and (lol) MK just happens to be one of them.
p.s. AZ why are you down airing for this, cant you just z-catch the nana in the air?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Because Diddy's Dair has a weird falling property that pretty much transports him straight to the ground. You are actually not even releasing the Dair, you are simply using it because it speeds up your return to the ground + catches the item (IE it is faster for returning to the ground then most characters Dairs, think maybe ZSS's Dair without the attack coming out/performed right next to the ground/and with no landing lag). Tests are being done with other moves as well, Hylians video, whenever it is released, should show some of that.

 

[§witch]

AZ I think BrawlLover is just a troll account >_>

A troll account with 1K+ posts? He must be pretty into trolling lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

so it would be harder for other character to do it, since they would have to catch it throw it and fastfall, where as diddy can do two of those steps at once?
i still say it doesnt look much different than this... just without the stomp in between
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B_BCtztgBU

 

[AlphaZealot]

In theory it isn't much different, but the KEY difference is that you have to hit the opponent with the banana before they recover from the trip of the previous banana and without attacking them. The attack animation of the D-air is never outputted (instead it just catches the banana and makes Diddy fall really fast with no lag on landing), unlike the attack animation of Ganon's stomps.

At least for me this is much harder to get down than Falco's stuff from Melee.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im out, get back to me when you know the specifcs, and if this doesnt work on MK im gonna laugh in your face, not to be mean, but just because you are so adamant about this

srsly tho, i expect something good

 

[AlphaZealot]

The knowledge so far, at the very least, is that the single nana lock is inescapable. What is not confirmed is whether it can be reversed or whether the spike works 100% of the time. Either way, a lock with just ONE banana is a huge deal to Diddy players.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I just popped into this topic. AZ can you explain the dair thing to me???