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Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
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popsofctown
Smash Champion
Janitor, you apparently haven't seen many brands of metaknight. Metaknight also has an incredible dash grab, he can dair people's shield while using his multiple jumps, walk up to several characters and just start ftilting.... plus the glide attack, plus the tornado, plus the fair. There's a lot of ways you can play him
Actually, people go, "WTF, that Sonic just 3 stocked me. I thought he had no kill moves... "
No one is going to make fun of Sonic for owning Snakes and MKs...
GofG
Smash Champion
Yeah, One. I hate to say it, but I think your arguments are wrong. I cringed a tiny bit when I read your description of how MKs act; that's not a very accurate description.
BibulousDan
Smash Apprentice
Well hopefully people wont make dumb decisions because of the new pod cast, WATCH IT
Advance
Smash Apprentice
Groovy Kong and theONEjanitor have my vote.
Several times.
But seriously, I don't see the point in banning characters, sense all of them have the potential to be used "Cheaply". It's all about skill baby.
Several times.
But seriously, I don't see the point in banning characters, sense all of them have the potential to be used "Cheaply". It's all about skill baby.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Nah trick. There are definitely tiers. Characters like Link and Ganondorf just plain suck and no realistic amount of skill can let them beat an MK or Snake that has a brain.
1. You can't play cheap with Captain Falcon; he's too manly for that.
2. This has nothing to do with cheapness, we(at least I) want to improve the metagame by banning to create more viability among other characters, increasing the scope of the metagame.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
On a slightly related note, the new version of Akuma in Super Turbo HD Remix seems much more manageable now (lol no invincible legs). I expect to see him being played often in the future.
Binx
Smash Master
does he still have the broken fireball trajectory?
See below:
The tier list is not merely some guy's opinion. It's a collection of data that is looked at by the SBR which then turns it into a ranked list based on tournament results, among other things.
And of course not everyone agrees with the first iteration of the tier list. That's because it's almost always wrong to start out with. Give it some time to develop.
^ Sigg'able.
Advance
Smash Apprentice
goldemblem
Smash Apprentice
A lot of the comments i have read are from people who have no idea of how meta is played and his matchups, so i think mot of the votes going to anti ban are from meta mains and those guys >_>
GofG
Smash Champion
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
it does since it goes both ways GOFG
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
heres the funny thing, ive played, worked with and experimented with just about every facet of sonics gameplay and i am very good with him.
ive played with metaknight no more than 15 times since brawl came out.
if it wasnt for the rediculous amount of MK matchup experience that everyone is forced to have, than i woudl seriously do better in tourneys with MK, just cus he is that good.
ive played with metaknight no more than 15 times since brawl came out.
if it wasnt for the rediculous amount of MK matchup experience that everyone is forced to have, than i woudl seriously do better in tourneys with MK, just cus he is that good.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Yes, he is a better character than Sonic. Good job figuring that out lol
gantrain05
Smash Master
WHHAAAT?! no way i can't believe that!!!!
I don't see how people can predict the metagame becoming nothing more than Meta Knight vs Meta Knight, since a large number of people do better against Meta Knight with a different character than Meta Knight, despite what matchup numbers may say.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I think they mean tournament finals being MK vs. MK ankoku... some people do better using a non-MK character, but ultimately Meta-knight mainers will be the winners of every tournament.
Meta Knight doesn't dominate second place nearly as hard as he dominates first.
gantrain05
Smash Master
not EVERY tournament, i mean i fight meta better as peach, although the matchup is displayed as a 60/40 MK advantage, i still do better with her than i would with a MK ditto match, i just think its rediculous that most of the metagame is revolving around "how can i beat MK" instead of focusing on other things.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
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- 6,860
Why are people comparing MK to melee Marth? They're waaaaaay too different.
Marth's "54.74% dominance rating" (Ankoku's sig) came after what? 7 years? Melee tournaments developed into about 6-8 viable characters, right?
MK's 35.11% came after less than a year. Right now, Brawl is still developing. People are using characters other than top and high tier characters. There's about 15-20 characters used very regularly. (a guesstimate)
Marth's 54% dominance after 7 years in a 6-8 character environment means a WHOLE lot less than MK's 35% dominance after less than a year after brawl's release in a very open environment where there's many different characters.
If anything, look at what Marth's dominance rating was just before a full year of melee coming out. I'd be willing to bet that it was much, much smaller than 35%. I'd also make a long-term bet that if MK isn't banned nationwide (assuming this game even survives long enough without a ban) that MK's dominance rating would surpass Marth's by at least 20%.
If you're going to compare the two characters, you also have to look at what percentage of tournament goers use Marth or MK- something Ankoku's rankings don't take into account.
*sigh*
Marth's "54.74% dominance rating" (Ankoku's sig) came after what? 7 years? Melee tournaments developed into about 6-8 viable characters, right?
MK's 35.11% came after less than a year. Right now, Brawl is still developing. People are using characters other than top and high tier characters. There's about 15-20 characters used very regularly. (a guesstimate)
Marth's 54% dominance after 7 years in a 6-8 character environment means a WHOLE lot less than MK's 35% dominance after less than a year after brawl's release in a very open environment where there's many different characters.
If anything, look at what Marth's dominance rating was just before a full year of melee coming out. I'd be willing to bet that it was much, much smaller than 35%. I'd also make a long-term bet that if MK isn't banned nationwide (assuming this game even survives long enough without a ban) that MK's dominance rating would surpass Marth's by at least 20%.
If you're going to compare the two characters, you also have to look at what percentage of tournament goers use Marth or MK- something Ankoku's rankings don't take into account.
*sigh*
gantrain05
Smash Master
i believe this is correct, and plus melee wasn't even fair....Ken never lost...lol.
Sharky
Smash Master
We obviously need to play some more, Kid. I need to learn you some more lololol. XD
Marth's rating would likely have been at least 52.63% (this is the % value of one character winning every tournament and not placing anywhere else in the top eight) during Ken's Melee career. Take that however you like.
So, I don't get it. Is Brawl still developing? Or not? Is Meta Knight's current dominance this early indicative of the future, or just a trend of the present? Or maybe it's just what's going to happen for the rest of Brawl's lifespan? I wish I could tell what the collective argument is, but I'm hearing everything from "Meta Knight's dominating tournaments now, and Brawl's not really got much to discover about it!" to "Meta Knight's dominating tournaments now, and eventually people are going to find out more about how to wreck with Meta Knight as the metagame develops!"
You've basically stated the two points -- that MK will either continue to dominate so people will end up playing him as the game stagnates and they get bored fighting constant uphill battles against him, or a way to defeat him will be found that will make other characters stand better chances against him than he has against them (And the game won't overcentralize to him).
The post you're quoting is saying something different. It doesn't matter how developed the game is, at this point in its lifespan people are still playing non-top tier characters. That's likely to go away as time goes on and people start selecting the better characters for the best win chance, right now there's a lot of matchup unfamiliarity and general feeling of being able to do well with non-top tiers that isn't likely to last once people really start figuring out how to do the things that the on-paper matchups say are how they should be working out (Or else we'll get better paper and the matchups will change, which will demonstrate the metagame isn't as well developed yet as some say)
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
I think from what I have seen people say on this site and playing at tournaments in norcal, there is a great difference in between this site and what actually goes down in tournaments. Yes I have lost to MK's when at tournaments, but as DDD i got them to KO range last stock whenever I lost to them, and these guys were regular tourney goers. So as much as you guys say how broken MK is (he is preety broken IMO) all this theory means very little if you actually keep a solid game against an MK. So basically in reality, I just find the boards create this invinciable MK, mostly stated by brawl noobs who do go to tourneys or didnt play competitive melee, that are to ignorant to see he a is a good character, but by all means a beatable one. Wether it be being patient as DDD and knowing tht MK has a the nado and great approaches, waiting for a sheild grab, or people like ninjalink who beat m2k last week, opening the eyes of stubborn smashers that there could be a counter to MK, wether it be a diddy or snake that DSF pulled off on plank, if we give the competitve scene more time, we may very possibly see counters to him in the future and a less of a dominance.
Also the game has not been out for more than a year and with most of the SBR saying he should stay in the metagame I think think people need to realize that if you go to a tourney, a lot of what some people say in this cite is complete trash and if you play smart you can beat an MK.
Also the game has not been out for more than a year and with most of the SBR saying he should stay in the metagame I think think people need to realize that if you go to a tourney, a lot of what some people say in this cite is complete trash and if you play smart you can beat an MK.
Didn't melee gain some in diversity later in life? I was under the impression that characters like DK and the Ice Climbers were really underrated for a long time, but I haven't heard of any characters who were significantly overrated in the same way. I think in the long term, regardless of what is done, characters like Meta Knight will take a small hit just because people will actually figure out what a lot of the random lower tier characters can do.
Think of it this way. Yeah, there's unfamiliarity with matchups; I don't think a lot of players are even really sure what some of the cast can do at all. Which matchups do you know better? Versus Meta Knight and Snake or versus Ness and Luigi? Which of those pairs probably has more stuff left to find about how to be effective with them? I can tell you which pair has gotten more of an investment into making them work.
Think of it this way. Yeah, there's unfamiliarity with matchups; I don't think a lot of players are even really sure what some of the cast can do at all. Which matchups do you know better? Versus Meta Knight and Snake or versus Ness and Luigi? Which of those pairs probably has more stuff left to find about how to be effective with them? I can tell you which pair has gotten more of an investment into making them work.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
to add to what salabo said about DanGR: he is also saying that you should be comparing marth in the first 9 months of melee to the current MK. I have no idea what his dominance was then but I've heard that ken wasn't around then and that shiek was the one that dominated at the start of melee.
When I read invincible, I stopped because obviously, you don't understand pro-ban.
NO ONE SAID HE'S UNDEFEATABLE, NO ONE SAID HE'S INVINCIBLE, oh, and btw, a loss is a loss is a loss. I don't care how close it is and what johns you have, a loss is a loss.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Then your sarcasm detector is broken....
It's PROBABLY indicative of the future, since there's no indication that there is any character to knock MK off his throne.
However, the metagame is still young, and it's quite possible that new discoveries will change this.
Furthermore, you have to consider the fact that MK mains took MK to a higher level then any other character was taken too, especially M2K. What Ally has done to snake is the only possible exception. So realistically, giving the other characters an opportunity to catch up is the most realistic option.
That's why I say that an MK ban is unjustified NOW.
We also have to take into account the fact that Brawl's development has a ridiculous lead over Melee's development. We have 7+ years of Melee knowledge behind us, so it's only logical that Brawl's metagame would at least progress faster because of it. The fact that MK's dominance rating is 35% compared to Marth's 50%-some isn't surprising, seeing as how at this point, we know what constitutes a dominant character and people know how to weed him out. When Melee first came out, we were more or less clueless.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
melee did have 64 to learn from...
just throwing that out there
and 64 had z canceling so people who did that in 64 before they got melee already had an advantage.
people seem to think that melee was the first game in the series for some reason
just throwing that out there
and 64 had z canceling so people who did that in 64 before they got melee already had an advantage.
people seem to think that melee was the first game in the series for some reason
illinialex24
Smash Hero
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
no it didnt....
a marth player won just about every regional and national tourney in melee,
what was it? every tourney that had more than 50 ppl?
or was it 100?
either way went it was at the highest levels of the game, marth was the best character
in all those small tourneys though, the ones that had less than 50/100 people, there was tons more diversity
EDIT:
or was that a sarcastic statement about brawl?
a marth player won just about every regional and national tourney in melee,
what was it? every tourney that had more than 50 ppl?
or was it 100?
either way went it was at the highest levels of the game, marth was the best character
in all those small tourneys though, the ones that had less than 50/100 people, there was tons more diversity
EDIT:
or was that a sarcastic statement about brawl?
Melee was the first game in the series that was taken to a level of serious competitiveness. It has nothing to do with game order.
I hope this is sarcastic.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
thats not true, 64 had a competitive comunity, just because it was super tiny doesnt mean that it wasnt there...
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