Pikachu's new 0-100+ cg on Falco

[∫unk]

If this is old sorry but it seems relatively new since the video was posted yesterday.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Myoltijo

Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225783

Edit: Thank you Shaya for clearing that up.

 

[Arty]

This definitely changes the matchup.
At least it's not a 0-Death

 

[xxmoosexx]

huh interesting, mouse takes stupid parrot's game and makes it beast, ironic


no offense but if falco had no cg then hed surely drop in the tier list, hes so dependent on it my dream is to find a way to stop all cg's or infinites from happening BTW

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Your dream died.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Yeah, i kno D:


it died horribly last night

 

[Bellioes]

Well they still get you to 100% from a grab starting at 0%
Thats a lot of percent 0_o

 

[Blistering Speed]

What I don't get is why Pikachu's didn't think to buffer grabs for a year.

 

[Shaya]

It's not about just buffering;

It's more that starting a downsmash cg at 0% wouldn't work. So no one believed that it could possibly be extended. The way brawl's move degenerate leaves us quite open to a lot of things we've never even thought of before, things that earlier in the metagame we only would test with a "melee" backdrop.

It makes me wonder whether or not Falco's dthrow cg could be somewhat extended further. But I think Falco's have been starting grabs at random percents for a while now... so it seems less likely. But lol, imagine if it was like "oh you were meant to buffer it and start it fresh at 30% to extend the cg to 80%".

Technically its 0-100%+
Falco can be chain grabbed to the required percentage with fthrow, and then perfectly continue it with the dthrow. It's ease is quite a hard blow to the matchup, and Falco will most likely gain a hard counter from this.

 

[B-Mon]

huh interesting, mouse takes stupid parrot's game and makes it beast, ironic


no offense but if falco had no cg then hed surely drop in the tier list, hes so dependent on it my dream is to find a way to stop all cg's or infinites from happening BTW

Lies. Falco's don't only depend on chaingrab.

 

[Tofu_Rodeo]

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Myoltijo

http://s3.amazonaws.com/wootsaleimages/Disapproving_Narwhal25eDetail.png

I know people don't like even slightly large pictures here, so i'll keep it a link.

 

[clowsui]

everybody pick up marth

 

[§witch]

I agree, marth+falco is raaaaaaaaaaape.

 

[J4pu]

everybody pick up marth

no, I picked up Pikachu
about a month ago

go me for picking CG-tastic characters

 

[Bellioes]

But Im sure the Pikachus will pick counter characters to counter Falcos counter too
So yeah, we could say the same thing about the Pikachus; Pick up another character for the Marth matchup.

 

[M@v]

oh snap some gets cgd worse than fox now. O_O

 

[Emperor Time]

O LAWD....IT'S OVAH!

Well, at least I still have Marth. Not really a crushing blow to my game considering I would never use Falco vs. Pika in the 1st place. Still. this isn't very good :/

 

[BentoBox]

...

Melee's mistakes improved the game.

What the hell went wrong with Brawl's development >_>"

 

[Jman77]

What the hell that's ridiculous. -_-

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

First off, what does it mean by buffering anyway?

If you look at the vid that is a lot of characters pikachu can CG to close to 100%.

 

[Ussi]

buffering means pressing a button before you can do an action to have the action done the moment it can be done. In brawl, you can buffer by 10 frames.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

My trying to buffer leads my grab turning into a shield.

Anyway, I wouldn't seriously say this affects the match up ton, it certainly turns it into a counter I believe. The window for it to work means the dthrow has to be fresh for it to work. Plus, it only works in a narrow percentage which is good. Since we play as falco we know how easy it is to get punished for trying to force a grab, the same way it will be with pikachu I bet.

 

[Ussi]

You have to let go 'z' within the 10 frames of buffering otherwise a shield comes out. In a sense, you're doing it too slow. for a sure proof method (for testing), use Z-stick, as it never shields.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Now that I think about it, this shouldn't impact the match-up TOO much. Yeah it sucks, but the window to grab us is relatively small. Unless the Pika completely neglects everything else, getting to above 20% without getting grabbed shouldn't be very difficult. And if they do only go for the grabs, we should be able to put on a good deal of damage on them before hand.

Plus, this should only work for the first stock.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Now that I think about it, this shouldn't impact the match-up TOO much. Yeah it sucks, but the window to grab us is relatively small. Unless the Pika completely neglects everything else, getting to above 20% without getting grabbed shouldn't be very difficult. And if they do only go for the grabs, we should be able to put on a good deal of damage on them before hand.

Plus, this should only work for the first stock.

Well, you get grabbed=1 stock

That 1 stock is very important

Pika CG' him for 1st stock--------------------Pika:3 Falco:2
Pika damages him to killing percents but dies -------------- Pika:2 Falco:2
Pika kills Falco taking minmium damage ---------------Pika:2 Falco:1
Since you refresh after you die Pika Cg's you -----------Pika:2 Falco:0

thats what that thing can do. DON'T GET GRABBED.


New tier list

1. Meta knight
2. Pikachu
3. Snake

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Well, you get grabbed=1 stock

That 1 stock is very important

Pika CG' him for 1st stock--------------------Pika:3 Falco:2
Pika damages him to killing percents but dies -------------- Pika:2 Falco:2
Pika kills Falco taking minmium damage ---------------Pika:2 Falco:1
Since you refresh after you die Pika Cg's you -----------Pika:2 Falco:0

thats what that thing can do. DON'T GET GRABBED.


New tier list

1. Meta knight
2. Pikachu
3. Snake

Just take more than 20% damage before you kill Pika :/ Probably won't even need to really try to do that.

 

[Ussi]

On falco I believe Pikachu can utilt > grab.

On everyone, he can fair > grab.

2nd, Pikachu is really good at grabbing people with his running speed.

3rd. Pikachu won't get that high on the tier list when he has: G&W, Diddy, Marth, ROB (personally i don't think so though), and Wario to keep him down. (they all are 60:40 or better)

 

[superglucose]

100% isn't death guys. Haven't you ever seen someone survive up to 150% against Snakes?

Sheesh... this is the problem with Brawl, everyone sees "omg new 0-100% CG" and goes, "hey, this matchup is now worthless. No need to bother playing it! Just resign and counterpick." Grow up and grow a pair. This makes the matchup hard, but not unwinnable. Remember when Falco's cg->spike killed Falco and Wolf? How many times did you see that in a match? Was it every time? Did that make those matchups unwinnable?

This just means that we have to be careful not to get grabbed around 20ish % against Pika. It makes it harder, but not impossible. Camp up and play smart and you'll be fine. If Pika tries to Fair approach, shieldgrab him and backthrow him away, iap to the other side of the stage, and camp up again.

If Pika is going to spend the whole match trying to get that CG, it's in your favor because he's going to be predictable. Kick his ***. SH over him and Bair, spot dodge his grab and grab him back, fight f or controller port priority, and then play a different character round 2. Or you can sti on these forums all day and complain about how this matchup is unwinnable.

 

[Tommy_G]

Ussi, how fast/how good is pika's pivot grab?

 

[The Truth!]

Pika is really good at getting grabs :x

Also, the CG stops at 104, meaning he has you in a regrab at 104%. After that they can dthrow to usmash for about 120%, which could potentially lead into a thunder. But my guess is some of the smarter pikas will freshen up their dthrow before Falco starts their next stock.

 

[Ussi]

Aren't pivot grabs always a mind game either way? (when it comes to running through someone) I'd say Pikachu's grab is fast. Just a little bit laggy when missed. Short ranged however, which is made up with speed. Pikachu is good at getting grabs though, use any form of lag and Pikachu will dash at you with a grab/shieldgrab.

and utilt > thunder sounds better at 104% more hitstun and less DIable.

 

[Vlade]

I was versing a Pikachu today.

You pretty much have to treat this match-up as if you were playing Ice Climbers when you're at or below 20%. If you do get caught in the chaingrab, which is probably bound to happen sometime in a tourney set, you just have to wait until 104% and then DI pika's utilt/usmash so you don't get thundered (or die from the usmash).

I'm gonna call it 60:40 pika's favour - it's not a **** match-up but yes, falco is now at a disadvantage from my short experiences.

 

[Maniclysane]

100% isn't death guys. Haven't you ever seen someone survive up to 150% against Snakes?

Sheesh... this is the problem with Brawl, everyone sees "omg new 0-100% CG" and goes, "hey, this matchup is now worthless. No need to bother playing it! Just resign and counterpick." Grow up and grow a pair. This makes the matchup hard, but not unwinnable. Remember when Falco's cg->spike killed Falco and Wolf? How many times did you see that in a match? Was it every time? Did that make those matchups unwinnable?

This just means that we have to be careful not to get grabbed around 20ish % against Pika. It makes it harder, but not impossible. Camp up and play smart and you'll be fine. If Pika tries to Fair approach, shieldgrab him and backthrow him away, iap to the other side of the stage, and camp up again.

If Pika is going to spend the whole match trying to get that CG, it's in your favor because he's going to be predictable. Kick his ***. SH over him and Bair, spot dodge his grab and grab him back, fight f or controller port priority, and then play a different character round 2. Or you can sti on these forums all day and complain about how this matchup is unwinnable.

You're thinking the wrong way, but I understand what you're talking about.

It's not just him at 100%, it's him at 100%, and you at 0ish%

 

[GHNeko]

Bets on Anther winning twice as many tourneys now.

 

[Vlade]

It makes me wonder whether or not Falco's dthrow cg could be somewhat extended further. But I think Falco's have been starting grabs at random percents for a while now... so it seems less likely. But lol, imagine if it was like "oh you were meant to buffer it and start it fresh at 30% to extend the cg to 80%".

I wondered this as well.

 

[GMo]

Is going for a footstool the best way to try to get out, hoping they mess up?

 

[Ussi]

Is going for a footstool the best way to try to get out, hoping they mess up?

pretty much. nothing else you can do but sit back and enjoy the ride. Do DI for the final hit otherwise you'll eat a thunder.

 

[Ussi]

EDIT: double post

It makes me wonder whether or not Falco's dthrow cg could be somewhat extended further. But I think Falco's have been starting grabs at random percents for a while now... so it seems less likely. But lol, imagine if it was like "oh you were meant to buffer it and start it fresh at 30% to extend the cg to 80%".

I would laugh if this came true

 

[Jman77]

I agree with 60-40. Don't forget we can chaingrab him back to about 50% and kill the stupid rat with f-smash at like 80% on the edge and upsmash around 105-110%

 

[Ussi]

first off, usmash doesn't even kill pikachu at 120% with DI (there is a video of ESAM surviving a fresh usmash) 2nd you only CG to 29%. that's a 70% difference.

 

[The Truth!]

Ussi stop antagonizing the other boards -_-