Pikachu's new 0-100+ cg on Falco

[Ussi]

I have nothing better to do Tag.

 

[ftl]

So how strict are the startup conditions?

If I get grabbed at 0, then it's fthrow->fthrow->dthrow->100%.

If I get grabbed at 20, then it's dthrow->100%.

What if I get grabbed at 30, or 40, or 50? Does that take me to 100%, or does it rely on the dthrow being stale by that time?

 

[Ussi]

cap % have yet to be figured out. You are free to attempt testing yourself. but yes staleness lets it go all the way to 100%.

 

[Slaysya]

I just come back from melee to play brawl and here this lol.

 

[J4pu]

Pika vs Falco 65-35 matchup now? 70-30? 80-20?
IC's were bad enough and they were slow and had to drag a ******** nana around with them for it to work, granted Pika doesn't have 0-death but it's still **** percentage.

imo it's 70-30 or 75-25

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

id say that pikachu has a better chance to grab falco, because of range and speed.

70-30

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Pika vs Falco 65-35 matchup now? 70-30? 80-20?
IC's were bad enough and they were slow and had to drag a ******** nana around with them for it to work, granted Pika doesn't have 0-death but it's still **** percentage.

imo it's 70-30 or 75-25

You honestly believe it's that bad? The chain grab should only affect your first stock and possibly the third stock.

Scenario:
CG > death first stock.

Second stock: Dthrow isn't fresh so Fthrow > Dthrow CG won't work. In order to get a fresh Dthrow they have to hit you and thus in all likelihood bring you above 20%. Maybe they can meet you half way or something and get you to like 40% and start Dthrow CG with a partially stale Dthrow, but that to me seems very unlikely and requires some stupid crazy calculations on the fly. Get to above 20% before you kill Pika and you're safe for Pika's second stock.

The most realistic way that I see of getting the CG off twice in one match is CG first stock, kill second stock without using Dthrow, CG 3rd stock.

Maybe all of this will be moot after more testing is done, but as of right now I can't say that the match-up is that bad as to say 70-30.

 

[J4pu]

falco doesn't instantly die at 100% + upsmash
then they merely need to get off ~5-6 hits before they kill you, then Fthrow>Dthrow CG may continue the next stock

it is not a 0-death CG
it's just almost like starting off at 100% every stock

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

even if he gets to kill you after the chaingrab, he doesnt need to do fthrow twice so he can jolt/jab to get the damage too.

 

[Kitamerby]

You honestly believe it's that bad? The chain grab should only affect your first stock and possibly the third stock.

Scenario:
CG > death first stock.

Second stock: Dthrow isn't fresh so Fthrow > Dthrow CG won't work. In order to get a fresh Dthrow they have to hit you and thus in all likelihood bring you above 20%. Maybe they can meet you half way or something and get you to like 40% and start Dthrow CG with a partially stale Dthrow, but that to me seems very unlikely and requires some stupid crazy calculations on the fly. Get to above 20% before you kill Pika and you're safe for Pika's second stock.

The most realistic way that I see of getting the CG off twice in one match is CG first stock, kill second stock without using Dthrow, CG 3rd stock.

Maybe all of this will be moot after more testing is done, but as of right now I can't say that the match-up is that bad as to say 70-30.

It really depends on the cap of the cg, and how soon it can still work once staled.

 

[J4pu]

there's always grab pummels too if he just needs a few extra hits to unstale Dthrow.

 

[Talonzz]

Dang, as if Brawl already has enough Chaingrabs, this came along.

I can already see Fox vs Pika happening right now. Just thinking...

 

[J4pu]

0-80 CG for pika vs Fox was known waayyyyy before this new thing came up.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Awww Crap...

 

[Exceladon City]

I smell a rise in tier placement for that electric pest...

 

[Ussi]

0-80 CG for pika vs Fox was known waayyyyy before this new thing came up.

Fox goes to 99% now xD


i'm gonna test if dthrow will CG if stale at that low %. (at most its 7 times staled cause you got hit by utilt/smash > thunder) I never would have thought of that if that wasn't brought up xD

But lets see... at 104%, 4 grab pummels > bthrow (just to avoid using dthrow) and then 1 hit to kill. thats a total of 6 hits. Falco gets grabbed at 0, fthrow x 2 > pummel, and what do you know, dthrow is no longer stale. lol.

This is assuming that Pikachu kills you RIGHT AFTER bthrowing you. If you plan to live, Pikachu might unstale dthrow before you even die.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What can Falco do against this?

Avoiding the grab and options to prevent it.

 

[§witch]

Hey guys, you know that thing falco tend to do? What's it called? Oh right, camping; seriously, pika's grab range is horrid and avoiding the grab should be easier than versus ICs.

We can camp pika harder, and he has less options to get up close.

 

[Ussi]

well, Pikachu has 3 ways to set up a grab...

offensively, he can do fair > grab

Defenively he can shieldgrab

and then there are mind games and Pikachu's speed is just sexcellent for grabbing people.

I wouldn't say falco is a mobile character so I don't think he's great at avoiding grabs. Lasers can be crawled under and so can the reflector. Any hint of lag and you're gonna get nabbed.

You're best bet is to mind game and punish grab attempts however, Pikachu will mindgame your mindgames so its down to mindgames which isn't good when so much is at stake.

EDIT: Pikachu's horrid grab range is made up by his mobility.

And about avoiding it like ICs, its not like you can separate Pikachu's hands from his body, like Nana from Popo.

 

[J4pu]

how can you possibly compare not getting grabbed by somebody who has to carry around a ******** nana to not getting grabbed in general?
we can't camp pika that well fyi very short and can crawl under even grounded lasers.

 

[§witch]

well, Pikachu has 3 ways to set up a grab...

offensively, he can do fair > grab

Sure, except falco won't be doing any approaching so if pika has time to jump and fair into faloc before he reacts, then he deserves to get 100%. Furthermore, falco will be camping near the edge, taking away the effectiveness of the fthrow CG.

Defenively he can shieldgrab

Falco won't be approaching.

and then there are mind games and Pikachu's speed is just sexcellent for grabbing people.

That's hardly a relevant way to set up a grab but okay. Also, mindgames should not be brought into this discussion, because then it goes down to the players; not the characters.

I wouldn't say falco is a mobile character so I don't think he's great at avoiding grabs. Lasers can be crawled under and so can the reflector. Any hint of lag and you're gonna get nabbed.

Well, a SH dair is unpunishable, much less by pika's pitiful grab range. Falco won't be trying to hit pika with the reflector, and I'm pretty sure a silent laser can hit pika out of crawl. I could be wrong though.

You're best bet is to mind game and punish grab attempts however, Pikachu will mindgame your mindgames so its down to mindgames which isn't good when so much is at stake.

=/

EDIT: Pikachu's horrid grab range is made up by his mobility.

And about avoiding it like ICs, its not like you can separate Pikachu's hands from his body, like Nana from Popo.

His mobility makes up for his other aspects, but not his ability to get a grab, his bad range is still bad.

Ah, but pika's effectiveness with his grab is taken away after about 30%, whereas the ICs are dangerous at all percents.

EDIT

This is going to suck for Falco. He's gonna fall a spot or so from this

Nah, it's not that bad.

 

[illinialex24]

This is going to suck for Falco. He's gonna fall a spot or so from this

 

[Ussi]

Sure, except falco won't be doing any approaching so if pika has time to jump and fair into faloc before he reacts, then he deserves to get 100%. Furthermore, falco will be camping near the edge, taking away the effectiveness of the fthrow CG.

well, as long as you get to 20% is what counts. Besides, if we manage to grab you over the ledge, you still get CG'd to 100% by dthrow. (from 0% too, the video he messed up and wasn't even buffering)

Falco won't be approaching.

Really the player's decision. But fair enough. Just an option.

That's hardly a relevant way to set up a grab but okay. Also, mindgames should not be brought into this discussion, because then it goes down to the players; not the characters.

Hai hai (ok ok) I know i say that all the time too. I never base anything off it, i'm just stating what its coming down to.

Well, a SH dair is unpunishable, much less by pika's pitiful grab range. Falco won't be trying to hit pika with the reflector, and I'm pretty sure a silent laser can hit pika out of crawl. I could be wrong though.

Pika's grab range has some good vertical range. Does SH dair have enough shield stun to stop Pikachu? If silent lasers hit LOWER than a grounded laser, then they'll hit Pikachu.

=/

:\ I'm not trying to discuss the MU, I'm discussing the situation.

his mobility makes up for his other aspects, but not his ability to get a grab, his bad range is still bad.

His mobility lets him get his short grab range in.

Ah, but pika's effectiveness with his grab is taken away after about 30%, whereas the ICs are dangerous at all percents.

Snake, Link and TL are the only characters who can decide their damage. (Minus Ike, but who will let Ike charge eruption fully without punishing it?)

Pikachu can play campy too and just wait for a good time to grab.


Pikachu is good at grabbing. :\

 

[J4pu]

switch stop being irrationally stupid, Falco gets a huge advantage off his CG against basically every character that isn't a MK that continually uses DJ Dair.
standing against an edge doesn't do anything, there's this thing called a normal pivot grab.
Falco might not be forced to approach pikachu, but pikachu isnt forced to apporach falco either. and there's a nice little spot pikachu can crouch in just a little too far for falco to boost smash where he can use thundershock as soon as falco jumps, falco will land on it if they commit to a laser.

it won't be extremely easy to grab but that doesn't mean this isn't a huge blow to the match-up

@illianex mk, snake, falco, ddd, and diddy i think, all take good amounts of damage from this, do you see them all of a sudden dropping below marth because he doesn't? no i don't think so.

 

[§witch]

well, as long as you get to 20% is what counts. Besides, if we manage to grab you over the ledge, you still get CG'd to 100% by dthrow. (from 0% too, the video he messed up and wasn't even buffering)

That wasn't my point, my point was this: pika needs space to do the fthrow CG, if he grabs falco by the edge, he can't get him to 20% that way.

Really the player's decision. But fair enough. Just an option.

If the falco is playing it intelligently, he won't be approaching in a situation that cna give him 100% by one grab.

Hai hai (ok ok) I know i say that all the time too. I never base anything off it, i'm just stating what its coming down to.

Alright, i just want this to stick to falco's ability to not get grabbed by pika at the appropriate percent.

Pika's grab range has some good vertical range. Does SH dair have enough shield stun to stop Pikachu? If silent lasers hit LOWER than a grounded laser, then they'll hit Pikachu.

Not a well spaced one.

I'll have to test the crawl thing, I'm really not sure.

His mobility lets him get his short grab range in.

It'd be more effective if he was slower with good grab range though.

Snake, Link and TL are the only characters who can decide their damage. (Minus Ike, but who will let Ike charge eruption fully without punishing it?)

this was referring to when they're both camping, falco's bound to take % from that, until he passes 30%~

Pikachu can play campy too and just wait for a good time to grab.

Aye, but falco is a better camper.

Pikachu is good at grabbing. :\

That may be so, but it hardly affects what I said.


EDIT

switch stop being irrationally stupid, Falco gets a huge advantage off his CG against basically every character that isn't a MK that continually uses DJ Dair.
standing against an edge doesn't do anything, there's this thing called a normal pivot grab.
Falco might not be forced to approach pikachu, but pikachu isnt forced to apporach falco either. and there's a nice little spot pikachu can crouch in just a little too far for falco to boost smash where he can use thundershock as soon as falco jumps, falco will land on it if they commit to a laser.

it won't be extremely easy to grab but that doesn't mean this isn't a huge blow to the match-up

I'm merely saying that it's not as large of a blow as people are saying it is. If falco screws up, then he gets 100%; that's huge. But ICs can do the same thing, and 0-death you and it's not percent dependent and they can camp as well as falco.

Pika's CG is escapable if he does a pivot.

Falco still has more options than pika does when pika is forced to crouch.

 

[ftl]

this was referring to when they're both camping, falco's bound to take % from that, until he passes 30%~

Wait, if Falco passes 30% without being grabbed, is he safe?

Based on what had been said, I'd thought that a grab anytime AFTER 20% leads to the CG, so anytime between 20 and 100%, a dthrow comboes into another dthrow. Was I wrong about that?

If not, do you know at what percentage Falco becomes safe from the CG? Is it as low as 30%?

 

[§witch]

Wait, if Falco passes 30% without being grabbed, is he safe?

Based on what had been said, I'd thought that a grab anytime AFTER 20% leads to the CG, so anytime between 20 and 100%, a dthrow comboes into another dthrow. Was I wrong about that?

If not, do you know at what percentage Falco becomes safe from the CG? Is it as low as 30%?

It's not able to go up until 100% at that point.

 

[J4pu]

when pikachu spaces his crouch well falco's options become limited to:
approach
IAP
pointless SH'ing or SHL and get hit by thundershock
do nothing

reading IAP = grab
the other two reasonable options= falco takes small dmg until 20% when pika stops doing this or nothing happens

i meant pikachu can run past and pivot for his first grab, setting yourself on the end of the stage doesn't mean nobody can do this.

 

[Ussi]

That wasn't my point, my point was this: pika needs space to do the fthrow CG, if he grabs falco by the edge, he can't get him to 20% that way.

But you still get to 100% if you get grabbed over the ledge...

You're better of platform camping.

It'd be more effective if he was slower with good grab range though.

Off topic: MK is faster than Pikachu and has a better grab range (WTF HAX)

On Topic: slow but good grab range is better for shield grabbing. Fast (range helps -_-; is better for punishing with grabs (dash > shield > grab)

this was referring to when they're both camping, falco's bound to take % from that, until he passes 30%~

Pikachu can choose not to fire tjolts or at least stop once your 18~24%

Aye, but falco is a better camper.

But Pikachu is a happy camper

Pika's CG is escapable if he does a pivot.

lolwhat?

Falco still has more options than pika does when pika is forced to crouch.

What will you do if Pikachu gets close to you. If you attack you can get shield grabbed and if you illusion, Pikachu can shield then dash grab you in the lag. If you fire lasers, Pikachu can grab in the lag. If you do nothing.... reaction mindgames. [Anything to add when Pikachu gets that close]

Falco doesn't have a fast dash so Pikachu can spotdodge on reaction to a dash > grab

Since this is EQUAL levels of play, you will get grabbed when mind games are controlling everything :\

Wait, if Falco passes 30% without being grabbed, is he safe?

Based on what had been said, I'd thought that a grab anytime AFTER 20% leads to the CG, so anytime between 20 and 100%, a dthrow comboes into another dthrow. Was I wrong about that?

If not, do you know at what percentage Falco becomes safe from the CG? Is it as low as 30%?

cap % is still being figured out. But from early tests I've done (that have to go under frame by frame testing), a grab at 40% will go to 80% with a fresh dthrow. but at 30% you footstool out after the 2nd dthrow (so fthrow to 40% )

For my testing: I held toward Pikachu with the control stick and mashed jump while Pikachu did dthrow on Falco.

 

[§witch]

But you still get to 100% if you get grabbed over the ledge...

You're better of platform camping.

As I was picturing everything in my head, we were on FD actually, Stage striking that **** lol.

Off topic: MK is faster than Pikachu and has a better grab range (WTF HAX)

On Topic: slow but good grab range is better for shield grabbing. Fast (range helps -_-; is better for punishing with grabs (dash > shield > grab)

Yes, but again his speed doesn't fully make up for his bad grab range (though it still helps.)

Pikachu can choose not to fire tjolts or at least stop once your 18~24%

but that's a very bad position for pika then. Falco firing a wall of projectiles while pika cna only sit there; watching the timer tick on...

But Pikachu is a happy camper

lolwhat?

I was referring to what J4pu said, which I misinterpreted.

What will you do if Pikachu gets close to you. If you attack you can get shield grabbed and if you illusion, Pikachu can shield then dash grab you in the lag. If you fire lasers, Pikachu can grab in the lag. If you do nothing.... reaction mindgames. [Anything to add when Pikachu gets that close]

I will jab, alot. his jab has mad range and speed (frame 3), cancels very well and his AAA is one of the best for damage racking and as a gtfo my face move.

Falco doesn't have a fast dash so Pikachu can spotdodge on reaction to a dash > grab

If falco tries to close a gap with an unsafe move.

Since this is EQUAL levels of play, you will get grabbed when mind games are controlling everything :\

No, because both players are completely equal and at the highest level, we're going to assume that only which techniques fully beat out the other's techniques are viable. though it's surely not as difficult for pika to get the grab as I'm making it out to be. this is if falco plays it all perfectly, this is still hella hard to avoid.

 

[Ussi]

As I was picturing everything in my head, we were on FD actually, Stage striking that **** lol.

Well, dthrow can be done on platforms still, so its still a threat on all stages but YI and Lylat (where the tilting will disrupt the CG at higher %s) [but those two stages will be Pikachu's strikes]

Yes, but again his speed doesn't fully make up for his bad grab range (though it still helps.)

Probably why swords **** Pikachu.

but that's a very bad position for pika then. Falco firing a wall of projectiles while pika cna only sit there; watching the timer tick on...

Well Pikachu just has to duck. Whoever has the % lead at the point will have to make action.

I will jab, alot. his jab has mad range and speed (frame 3), cancels very well and his AAA is one of the best for damage racking and as a gtfo my face move.

It has no hitstun. jab > 2nd jab > Pikachu shields > shield pushed > Falco is in cool down lag from jab > grabbed.

No, because both players are completely equal and at the highest level, we're going to assume that only which techniques fully beat out the other's techniques are viable. though it's surely not as difficult for pika to get the grab as I'm making it out to be. this is if falco plays it all perfectly, this is still hella hard to avoid.

Pikachu's mindgames have more weight than falco's when it will come to the CG.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Randomly popping up here, I know, but if Pikachu can completely duck under the lasers and never be hit, couldn't he in theory hit Falco with one thunder jolt thingy, and then force Falco to either approach or lose due to time out?

I'm thinking about picking up the rat as a way to counter Falco, which is why I'm popping up here.

 

[Ussi]

Randomly popping up here, I know, but if Pikachu can completely duck under the lasers and never be hit, couldn't he in theory hit Falco with one thunder jolt thingy, and then force Falco to either approach or lose due to time out?

I'm thinking about picking up the rat as a way to counter Falco, which is why I'm popping up here.

Noo, I'm supposed to be the only Pikachu/Ike main. Wait, nvm, you'll be Ike/Pikachu, it'll be reversed ;o

But you bring up a good point.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Noo, I'm supposed to be the only Pikachu/Ike main. Wait, nvm, you'll be Ike/Pikachu, it'll be reversed ;o

More like Ike/Captain Falcon/G&W/Pikachu/Wolf/MK. In that order.

But ya, I'd like to have a CGer on my list, and Falco isn't working out too well, neither did D3....

I'll go back to lurking in Pikachu topics now.

 

[J4pu]

It has no hitstun. jab > 2nd jab > Pikachu shields > shield pushed > Falco is in cool down lag from jab > grabbed.

Jab is actually a pretty safe option if pikachu is that close

but if Pikachu can completely duck under the lasers and never be hit, couldn't he in theory hit Falco with one thunder jolt thingy, and then force Falco to either approach or lose due to time out?

I posted this a little while ago...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ya, I think I missed it. >_> My bad. Oh well.

 

[Ussi]

Jab is actually a pretty safe option if pikachu is that close

idk, ever since I saw Ike's jab interrupt Falco's jab combo after his 2nd hit i've been convinced it has no hitstun thus i can shield in time.

 

[superglucose]

idk, ever since I saw Ike's jab interrupt Falco's jab combo after his 2nd hit i've been convinced it has no hitstun thus i can shield in time.

The range on the jab is still really good, and it's really hard to shield grab.

 

[Ussi]

The range on the jab is still really good, and it's really hard to shield grab.

I don't want to shield grab. I'm gonna hold shield till the jab either pushes me away or you stop (or both). Once you stop i'll dash grab you in the cool down.

 

[J4pu]

you won't be able to, it's basically unpunishable.
well you could get the grab off, but it would not be because the jab gave you a frame advantage.