Pikachu's new 0-100+ cg on Falco

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Even if you upsmash at 105% you can still DI and momentum cancel to survive the hit. You just have to worry about thunder on the way down.

 

[Ussi]

Pikachu can usmash out of it, but if you DI the usmash well enough, you'll avoid the thunder. (but if you momentum cancel you'll eat thunder)

The MU before was even 50-50 wasn't it?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It is 50-50. I think with the possiblity of eating a 0%-105%+ CG will put it for sure at an advantage for pikachu. How much of an advantage is hard to tell. In theory avoiding the grab till 30% shouldn't be too hard, but you guys say that pikachu has an easy time grabbing. I guess the only real way to know is how much this affects tournament matches to see if it's that much of a blow against falco.

 

[Ussi]

There is still some testing going on at the % Falco is completely free of the CG. Cause I did a light test (that further testing needs) With Falco getting CG'd 40% fresh to 80% Like I said, more testing is needed.

EDIT:

Alright, I got one of my fellow Pikachus to finally do some hard testing (He's the main tester doing frame by frame testing) and he got this with a plain dthrow:

From 40%, Falco gets out at around 100%. From 45%, Falco gets out at 80% and from 50% it's 70%.

So this goes on a while and even at 50% that's 20% + usmash

 

[J4pu]

brawl phantasm has invincibility in the beginning, melee didn't.
since we will only IAP away when you get too close you won't be able to hit us out because that area is invincible, all you really have to do is read it one time though and there goes 20-100% depending on the start %.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There is still some testing going on at the % Falco is completely free of the CG. Cause I did a light test (that further testing needs) With Falco getting CG'd 40% fresh to 80% Like I said, more testing is needed.

EDIT:

Alright, I got one of my fellow Pikachus to finally do some hard testing (He's the main tester doing frame by frame testing) and he got this with a plain dthrow:



So this goes on a while and even at 50% that's 20% + usmash

So the longer you avoid it, the less threatening the chain grab is.

This, if Pikachu could smash you, why wouldn't he grab you.

 

[Ussi]

So the longer you avoid it, the less threatening the chain grab is.

This, if Pikachu could smash you, why wouldn't he grab you.

Usmash has more vertical range than his grab. And yes, once you hit 45% the CG starts to lower in damage but it still will do damage until like 60%, i'd say 60% you're scott free of it.

 

[§witch]

This is a competitive fighting game, not Barney's playhouse. And yes, you've already made clear that you hate Brawl, if you hate such tactics then quit the game instead of trying to ruin competitive advantages. Im sure the Falcos are smart enough to figure out how to deal with this on their own or to come to our boards and ask us without you going to all 35 character boards and bloating about a chain grab or how itll hopefully get people to quit brawl and move to brawl+.

I officially love you.

Oh, and just so everyone knows, this is how i operate in a serious discussion atmosphere: when unsure as to what side to take in a debate, I go with the one that goes against what everyone else is thinking. This allows me to much more clearly see both sides of the argument at hand; moreover allowing me to make a decision either way.

Now, Ussi has yet to convince me as to why it should be more than easy for pika to grab falco, though if someone brings up a good point I'll quickly agree that pika is a **** match-up for falco; but until then...

 

[KRiMz0N]

Lies. Falco's don't only depend on chaingrab.

right. chaingrabs and spikes.

and looking really cool.

 

[Ussi]

I officially love you.

Oh, and just so everyone knows, this is how i operate in a serious discussion atmosphere: when unsure as to what side to take in a debate, I go with the one that goes against what everyone else is thinking. This allows me to much more clearly see both sides of the argument at hand; moreover allowing me to make a decision either way.

Now, Ussi has yet to convince me as to why it should be more than easy for pika to grab falco, though if someone brings up a good point I'll quickly agree that pika is a **** match-up for falco; but until then...

Theorycrafting does not work for everyone and usually there are more to things then what is on paper. So, instead of trying to convince you, we can just await what happens when this is taken to practice.

 

[§witch]

Theorycrafting does not work for everyone and usually there are more to things then what is on paper. So, instead of trying to convince you, we can just await what happens when this is taken to practice.

We could, but the whole point of bringing it up, was for theory crafting to occur. If not for theory crafting then match-up discussions and this whole forum would cease to exist.

 

[KRiMz0N]

congratulations pikachus, now everybody hates you

 

[Ussi]

We could, but the whole point of bringing it up, was for theory crafting to occur. If not for theory crafting then match-up discussions and this whole forum would cease to exist.

you can't theorycraft without first hand battle experience. I've battled Falcos, but none after the CG was discovered. So i've never put this to practice. I've been basing off my previous experiences.

congratulations pikachus, now everybody hates you

Anyone who hates Falco won't hate Pikachu but in fact love Pikachu for this. Either way hate and love are both subjective.

Besides this CG only affects some select characters. Marth counters Pikachu so and rise in Pikachu makes it easier for him.

 

[§witch]

you can't theorycraft without first hand battle experience. I've battled Falcos, but none after the CG was discovered. So i've never put this to practice. I've been basing off my previous experiences.

You can theory craft with a finger up your *** if you'd like. One can base this all off of what they know, for example; all the pikachu needs is one grab to get falco from 0-100%, clearly he will do his best to land this grab, no? Of course he will, now, an intelligent falco will know this and he'll stick to the edge and get that percentile lead that forces pika to approach him, but falco is amazing at playing hit and run.

So, what can pika do to assure he gets in close enough to falco that he can land a grab?

 

[KRiMz0N]

^fair or qac

edit: or, wait for him to try to chaingrab, then spot dodge or roll

 

[Ussi]

fair > grab works on all percents and it shield stabs and since Falco is a fast faller Pikachu can utilt > grab at low %s

QAC is not effective as it has like 1 frame of hitstun, but QAC lets Pikachu travel around the stage fairly quickly.

 

[§witch]

^fair or qac

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't account for the running forward, jumping and the aerial coming out.

QAC hardly sets you up for a grab.

You have to FF the fair so it ends before the last hit for it to go into a grab, right? If so that will hardly shield stab.

Utilt is a much less viable way to land a grab as its range is worse or on par with the grab itself.

That still doesn't address my question: "How can pika get in close enough to grab falco?"

 

[PikaPika!]

congratulations pikachus, now everybody hates you

What's new?

 

[BleachigoZX]

Is this CG possible on Lylat Cruise?

This might lighten the match-up on this stage.

 

[Ussi]

I've mentioned before, it messed with the CG, but the CG still happens to some extent.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

hey, thought i'd mention it here, marth has a buffered dash grab dthrow cg into a tipper fsmash on fox and falco, 0-53/54%, puts you really close to death, if the marth can gimp it's pretty much a 0-death

also, dk/peach/a few others have small cgs on you guys, but they only go to like 20 and aren't really worth it

 

[§witch]

Not to mention the fthrow Cg>spike that he has.

 

[shinato91]

Why sakurai hates spacies?

 

[Blad01]

Let's say goodbye to our 3rd place on the tier list

 

[Emperor Time]

It's not over....

 

[Hyo]

Why sakurai hates spacies?

Why does Sakurai hate Link?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

why does sakurai?

 

[Ussi]

Why does Sakurai hate competitive smashing?

 

[clowsui]

hey, thought i'd mention it here, marth has a buffered dash grab dthrow cg into a tipper fsmash on fox and falco, 0-53/54%, puts you really close to death, if the marth can gimp it's pretty much a 0-death

also, dk/peach/a few others have small cgs on you guys, but they only go to like 20 and aren't really worth it

um nobody in the marth boards have ever said anything about this rofl

where are you getting this information from? dthrow -> fsmash only works from 0-14 and that's on fox
fthrow -> fsmash can only be doubled (dbl fthrow) and even then it only does ~32

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I heard something similar from a marth main. read the posts during the discussion. I thought it was fthrow like 2 times at very low percents into a spike or gimp thing.

Edit: Yeah. If falco gets grabbed Fthrownen and damage of the Fthrow is under 10% and falco gets off stage it will lead to a tipped Dair. Unavoidable and can then be edgehogged as you are forced to recover with Fire Bird.

Although, that combo can only be down in an incredibly narrow time span. You basically have to get the Fthrow done between 0%-6% or else falco won't get tipped offstage. Plus, you have to be really close to the edge for it to work or else falco will just auto-grab the edge when Fthrown.

So this isn't going to be happeneing much.

 

[ftl]

From 0%, Marth can do Fthrow->fthrow->Dair for a kill.

It's been known for a while, it's very situational, but it's something us Falcos should keep in mind and avoid. It doesn't really affect the matchup much.

 

[Kitamerby]

what can pika do to assure he gets in close enough to falco that he can land a grab?

Well, Pikachu has one of the fastest dashes, has a nice shield, Falco can most likely be shieldgrabbed easily due to little range on most moves, a nice shieldgrab range, an okay dash grab, a spotdodge on the same level as Falco's, Fair may combo into a grab sometimes, baiting a move, crawling under a shine after baiting one(may or may not work, but it would be hilarious if it did), the fact that grabs go through shields, etc.

It's a ridiculous question in its own right, though. Falco isn't some super-evasive air-camper like Wario. Nor does he have gigantic disjointed hitboxes like Meta Knight. It's like asking why Falco would be able to grab Pit or Fox or Lucario. If Pikachu is of sufficient skill and sees an opening, he will grab, possibly at the desired %.

Regardless, if the matchup truly is even even before this discovery, then it will definitely tilt into Pikachu's favor now. Saying otherwise is just being silly.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Why sakurai hates spacies?

no johns, you've been top tier 2 games straight

and yeah, now marth has the dthrow to tipper and the fthrow to spike, both of which are pretty much a death if they grab the ledge afterwards

but luckily for you, neither of them work if you're over like 10% before they start, so just don't get grabbed at 0

 

[ftl]

Well, Falco's got a some tools to work with to play anot-be-grabbed game, though. SHL, phantasm, and Jab - done right, those can't be punished with a grab, I think. Phantasm is iffy. (Maybe a spaced ftilt as well? Anyone know the frame data on that? It's risky, but maybe it's doable...)

So maybe a keepaway, chip-damage game is possible?

Maybe. Or maybe not, maybe Pika's got the tools to get in a grab anyway, or to take virtually no damage while dealing me some damage if I try to play like that. I have no experience with what Pika can do if Pika's willing to take 20 damage to get a grab in. I'll have to try against my neighborhood Pikas and see how well Falco can keepaway a Pika in practice...

...though now that I think of it, I'm suspecting it won't work well at all... But again I'm not sure...

...but I'll have to see, again. Will face a Pika either tomorrow or sometime next week and see how it goes.

 

[J4pu]

ftilt is amazing on shield, definitely not very risky if you space it.

 

[Ussi]

I'll ask this, does Falco's leg count as his hurtbox thus making it shield grabable?

 

[J4pu]

yes, it is not a disjointed hitbox

however it puts on enough shield stun that combined with it's quickness should make it unshiled-grabbable. They would still be able to grab it before it hit their shield though if they timed it right.

 

[Shaya]

Marth can dthrow chaingrab Fox/Falco from like 0-15%. Fox can still be tipper fsmashed out of it... I'm not sure if they can DI out though.

I have not seen, heard, or anything to that degree anything Marth can do on fox/falco to the 50% mark or so without it being possible to DI.

(Marth can fthrow, tipper fair, tipper uair to usmash Fox/Falco, it's a combo I posted about/"made" that does like 50%, but it's not exactly easy to do when they can DI the tipper fair).

 

[GenesisJLS]

What the hell, I thought the meta game of Brawl completely stopped. O well, at least Falco still has a chain grab of his own. Another reason why people should play Meta. Honestly who plays Pikachu anyway, besides 7 year old that don't know any better?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Marth can dthrow chaingrab Fox/Falco from like 0-15%. Fox can still be tipper fsmashed out of it... I'm not sure if they can DI out though.

I have not seen, heard, or anything to that degree anything Marth can do on fox/falco to the 50% mark or so without it being possible to DI.

(Marth can fthrow, tipper fair, tipper uair to usmash Fox/Falco, it's a combo I posted about/"made" that does like 50%, but it's not exactly easy to do when they can DI the tipper fair).

your doing it wrong, i just did it in tournament today, buffer the dash grabs right after the dthrow, it isn't that hard. for fox, do it up to 31-32% (depends on if the dthrow started diminished or not) then fsmash, for falco, 33-34% before the fsmash

EDIT:

What the hell, I thought the meta game of Brawl completely stopped. O well, at least Falco still has a chain grab of his own. Another reason why people should play Meta. Honestly who plays Pikachu anyway, besides 7 year old that don't know any better?

metagames don't stop for a LONG *** time. also, pikachu cgs meta to 60%, this is another reason why people should play one of the random mid tiers that don't get cg'd