Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Jebu-95]

Interesting update. DKs MUs dropped by a lot. Now even Ike/Yoshi/Sheik have better MUs than what he has. I faill to understand why PT has a 1+ adv. against DK.

 

[Dakpo]

Both sides came to the same consensus by themselves that olimar has the advantage.

-Olimar's camping game is notably problematic for ZSS.
-The kill power and damage potential of olimar is notably better than what ZSS has.
-Olimar's whistle makes it VERY difficult for ZSS to actually kill olimar.
-ZSS doesn't have strong CP stages on olimar, but olimar has a couple strong CPs on ZSS.
-The main thing that has changed in the MU: Olimar's jump-cancelled upsmash out of shield has resulted in ZSS attacks no longer being as safe as they once were. Such as: Jab, dash attack, and any tilts.


Also, one-stock isn't a good point to argue on because one-stock is inherently different than 3 stock, especially against ZSS.

I agree oli is like -2 actually -__- i play against denti sometimes and i really dislike the match up.
What stage counterpicks are you talking about? And with stages like brinstar how can you say we dont have a counter pick?
also, jab is still pretty safe, both YOU and denti didnt punish my jabs

 

[Doc King]

Interesting update. DKs MUs dropped by a lot. Now even Ike/Yoshi/Sheik have better MUs than what he has. I faill to understand why PT has a 1+ adv. against DK.

DK really did make a huge drop in matchups. Poor Ape. Maybe PT has a +1 on DK because of them being able to combo him a lot like Ivy's neutral b and Charizard's flames and rock, and Squirtle juggling. And how DK will have a hard time approaching them if they are camping.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If Reflex feels like reposting his godlike arguments you will see why.

 

[Delta-cod]

Ike and Yoshi didn't discuss anything, we both agreed to 0 on our own.

Ah. Maybe I got mixed up because I remember discussing it a lot with people.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I like how Doc King got trolled by Kid.

I got Marcbri too.

We have Greward who is the most amazing Sonic in the universe.

He mains olimar, thus, his sonic is trash.

There are no respectable sonic mains, or even sonic players in that entire continent.

As someone who's played Pink Fresh, I cannot see Lucas as a +2. It's not as easy as you think.

^^ THe problem that a lot of people in here have.

this is why I never make matchup lists for myself. and why I was reluctant to be a part of the panel for sonic to begin with.

How the hell does everyone in here seem to know how every matchup in here plays out at a high level?

Lets be honest, if youve never played PF or Mekos, do you really have a legitamate understanding of how your character does against Lucas? Hell, people consider me a good sonic, and I practice a ton with a solid yoshi player friend of mine, and i still have no freaking clue how that matchup works. Some (a lot[most]) people in here are really over stating the value of your own opinion. Because aside from very specific examples (fuujin comes to mind) if your opinion really mattered that much, youd be on the panel help to decide these things in the first place.

 

[NickRiddle]

I got Marcbri too.

He mains olimar, thus, his sonic is trash.

There are no respectable sonic mains, or even sonic players in that entire continent.

^^ THe problem that a lot of people in here have.

this is why I never make matchup lists for myself. and why I was reluctant to be a part of the panel for sonic to begin with.

How the hell does everyone in here seem to know how every matchup in here plays out at a high level?

Lets be honest, if youve never played PF or Mekos, do you really have a legitamate understanding of how your character does against Lucas? Hell, people consider me a good sonic, and I practice a ton with a solid yoshi player friend of mine, and i still have no freaking clue how that matchup works. Some (a lot[most]) people in here are really over stating the value of your own opinion. Because aside from very specific examples (fuujin comes to mind) if your opinion really mattered that much, youd be on the panel help to decide these things in the first place.

Comparing PF to Mekos.
MFW

 

[Espy Rose]

Pikachu's panel is the exception, KID.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Zelda does indeed have a -2 mu vs Yoshi.

 

[Luigi player]

DK really did make a huge drop in matchups. Poor Ape. Maybe PT has a +1 on DK because of them being able to combo him a lot like Ivy's neutral b and Charizard's flames and rock, and Squirtle juggling. And how DK will have a hard time approaching them if they are camping.

More like most people are just underrating him.

 

[Chuee]

Comparing PF to Mekos.
MFW

If you're implying Mekos is much better than PF then you're wrong.
I've known both of them, followed their tournament performances since they started actively attending, and played both of them. They're both relatively close in skill.
Also you could possibly group FAE in with them.

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

how did snake GnW reach +1/-1 ?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

nah dk is p. bad

 

[san.]

Ah. Maybe I got mixed up because I remember discussing it a lot with people.

From the Yoshis I played (mostly Polt), I feel like Ike has a bit of an edge, but it's nothing enough to be more than a 0. Yoshi can put Ike in some positions he doesn't like too much, such as the CG if a double jump.

 

[Doc King]

Zelda does indeed have a -2 mu vs Yoshi.

nah, it's a -1.

More like most people are just underrating him.

Nah, the matchup ppl wouldn't underrate or overrate somebody.

 

[| Big D |]

Zelda beats Yoshi bro

 

[Kinzer]

There are no respectable sonic mains, or even sonic players in that entire continent.

I do believe there is Satanpuu. I think he's in France, no?

Other than him though, and unless I'm forgetting someone, Sonic is practically non-existant over in Europe, yeah...

 

[Alphicans]

how did snake GnW reach +1/-1 ?

Cause that's what it is...

 

[GDX]

Diddy is even against mk.

You should be banished for this comment

Also diddy + 2 on yoshi? I can see advantage but +2?

There's actually a lot of problems I see but that's the norm for matchup charts. I'll just stay out of extensively nagging on this one

 

[Z'zgashi]

Zelda beats Yoshi bro

I still only think it's even. Delta thinks we **** you though.

 

[Doc King]

I actually like playing the matchup as .

Well the chart says -1 for Zelda. So thats that.

 

[SFA Smiley]

how did snake GnW reach +1/-1 ?

What Alph said. We Juggle the **** outta him and KO him earlier than most of the cast. GW/Snake is seriously close to even we just die way too early. One mistake will cost both characters their stock but snake still will live way longer than GW because of a mistake. We win in the air, he wins on the ground, offstage game is almost nonexistent because he recovers high and in the few instances we can put him in that position we win.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I do believe there is Satanpuu. I think he's in France, no?

Other than him though, and unless I'm forgetting someone, Sonic is practically non-existant over in Europe, yeah...

YOURE better than satanpuu.

I think that says plenty about the level of sonic over there.

What Alph said. We Juggle the **** outta him and KO him earlier than most of the cast. GW/Snake is seriously close to even we just die way too early. One mistake will cost both characters their stock but snake still will live way longer than GW because of a mistake. We win in the air, he wins on the ground, offstage game is almost nonexistent because he recovers high and in the few instances we can put him in that position we win.

sounds like a +1 for snake to me.

 

[NickRiddle]

If you're implying Mekos is much better than PF then you're wrong.
I've known both of them, followed their tournament performances since they started actively attending, and played both of them. They're both relatively close in skill.
Also you could possibly group FAE in with them.

I mean, Galeon will always be the best Lucas in MY mind. /flbias
Mekos actually does stuff now though.
Who does PF beat?

 

[Browny]

When was the last time a top sonic lost to a marth

srs question, idk

 

[Ripple]

DK is so bad.

 

[Delta-cod]

From the Yoshis I played (mostly Polt), I feel like Ike has a bit of an edge, but it's nothing enough to be more than a 0. Yoshi can put Ike in some positions he doesn't like too much, such as the CG if a double jump.

I've seen this said somewhere else I think, probably by you. Either way, I feel the same way. It's definitely even at best for Yoshi, and I'd never argue it as a +1 in the current metagame.

nah, it's a -1.

And you play...which of these characters in tournament at a high level again?

 

[da K.I.D.]

X is like 3-2 with mikehaze or something

 

[Alacion]

I dunno Yoshi isn't as bad as some of Zelda's -2s. I wouldn't be against the matchup being +2 for Yoshi.

Like... Yoshi is nowhere as bothersome as Pikachu, Peach, Toon Link, and Wolf... not that I think these characters are -2...

 

[Death Arcana]

X is like 3-2 with mikehaze or something

Nah chris has more wins than that
He told me that mikehaze hates playing his sonic to the point he went diddy and snake on occasion

 

[Mr. Johan]

Someone wanna tell me why Yoshi vs. Bowser is +3/-3? Was it based primarily on the Delta-cod vs. Kingkong match not too long ago? Because it does sound a bit radical.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No, that'd be an irrational reason just to make it -3.
Besides, it's been -3 since the first MU chart.

 

[Cassius.]

No, Bowser actually does really badly against Yoshi lol, it's always been a pretty bad matchup. Probably in '09 when Ixis made a large post about it being 50-50, but since then we all found out how bad it truly was, and KingKong's defeat only solidified those theories.

Bowser has no way to respond to Yoshi's egg toss camping, first of all. Which means we have to approach. Klaw gets beaten out easily by pivot grab unless we jump away or something, but even then it's a really bad option because Yoshi is superior in the air.

Yoshi has a guaranteed air release cg on Bowser which can usually result in death if we don't have our second jump. If we do and we get to the edge of the stage, Bowser has a 50/50 shot of making it back.

Bowser also can't really do anything against Yoshi out of his grab release, and Yoshi's pretty heavy...and stuff.

It was -3 last time and there was no need to change it, it's just a bad matchup overall, there was no need to re-discuss it.

Additional notes include that Bowser is a shield heavy character, and Yoshi has one command grab that can be wavebounced for huge distances (probably because of his air speed, I honestly don't know) and he has a pivot grab that results in near-auto death.

I don't really know what else to include. Bowser will more than likely be losing the % battle because Yoshi has the eggs. The only thing Bowser can hope for is a crossup of some sort but that's just foolish to rely on since Yoshi has other tools besides just the grab and eggs.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I had only heard it being -3 since that match. If it's been that way since v. 1.0 then never mind, lol.

This MU determination just stood out to me as much as Kirby vs. Sheik did in the last MU chart. It's just kind of odd to see obscure MUs get such stand-out numbers.

 

[Delta-cod]

Because we force Bowser to approach, and our anti approach options (primarily pivot grab) destroy Bowser because he has bad dodges.

Outside of us just being able to camp the hell out of him, we dance circles around him when we get in. Egg Lay provides us with an excellent combo/juggle starter, and we really do chain Bowser quite easily. He has difficulty landing against us, we outspeed him in the air, he has no good Dair to combat our Uair, and he's a big target. Offstage, he's sort of edge guarding bait. He has difficulty getting off the ledge against Yoshi.

Bowser has difficulty racking damage against Yoshi. Killing is even harder.

 

[Kinzer]

YOURE better than satanpuu.

I think that says plenty about the level of sonic over there.

I am?

Yay~! <3

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

What Alph said. We Juggle the **** outta him and KO him earlier than most of the cast. GW/Snake is seriously close to even we just die way too early. One mistake will cost both characters their stock but snake still will live way longer than GW because of a mistake. We win in the air, he wins on the ground, offstage game is almost nonexistent because he recovers high and in the few instances we can put him in that position we win.

We die early to everyone... and especially snake but in that MU to juggle him; to get him in the air for the juggle; you have Metal Gear(pun intended) you way in which is easier said that done in most cases; it's like thing from A to C and not thinking about B in the middle

 

[Doc King]

I've seen this said somewhere else I think, probably by you. Either way, I feel the same way. It's definitely even at best for Yoshi, and I'd never argue it as a +1 in the current metagame.



And you play...which of these characters in tournament at a high level again?

None. I know this because the matchup chart says so. Don't diss the chart.

 

[Chuee]

I mean, Galeon will always be the best Lucas in MY mind. /flbias
Mekos actually does stuff now though.
Who does PF beat?

PF was inactive for awhile, though he's still got a few good recent accomplishments.
He beat Judo and Kel at Revenge, and he beat Speed at a recent concentrate.
All that I remember of the top of my head.

 

[Judo777]

What on Earth? GW Snake -1???? How does GW juggle snake? You have to juggle him without using any long lasting aerials (which is all of them). It not like GW can reliably floor trap him with grabs lol.