Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[~ Gheb ~]

tag, dont feed the espy troll, just let him say hes better then all the pikas and knows more then us and laugh at him in silence lol

Very good post. Would read again.

 

[Vinylic.]

Does someone have a good reason why falco/pika is -2/+2?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

faclos unanimously decided it was only -two, it was split for the pikas and instead of letting it go to discussion our leader just forced a decision /shrug

 

[Kinzer]

Does someone have a good reason why falco/pika is -2/+2?

SK92 won't even use Falco against Z anymore.

You know a MU is bad when one of your star "character players" is forced to switch on a person that gets slept on a lot.

Edit: Damn you for beating me to the punch and providing a potentially better explanation~!

 

[Stealth Raptor]

lol im fast im sure regardless the matchup would have been decided at +two anyways -one of the ones i disagree with but w/e- but it never went to discussion. always next time :D

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It was split on the Pika panel as well, the hell you talking about?

 

[Kewkky]

It was split on the Pika panel as well, the hell you talking about?

Uhh, that's what he said.

 

[Cassio]

It was almost split dead even on both panels, I think each panel voted it +2/-2 by one vote.

I thought SK92 beats Z with falco? There were some recent videos we used to help determine the MU.

 

[Vinylic.]

Then would I be silly to say that pika/falco would be between even and -1 or no?

 

[Kinzer]

I thought SK92 beats Z with falco? There were some recent videos we used to help determine the MU.

Not from what I've seen locally as of late. Usually goes MK/Wario/blah now. It's a shame too really, I like his Falco more than his MK or anything else.

Also I'd have to ask to see the videos and how recent they are. Maybe I overlooked some matches because I don't watch the two play from start to finish. But AFAIK/AFAIRemember this hasn't been the case for quite some time.

 

[Cassio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMeMTY1IecY

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-HUVTcd04

both in september.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Uhh, that's what he said.

Whoops, misread. My bad

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Just to let whoever's in charge of making it, on the Match up chart you have Peach:MK listed as -2 and MKeach listed as +2
They should be -3 and +3 respectively according to the individual one

Good job on Peach's MU's imo

Edit: Some of those 'Diff' values are pretty wacky lulz

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi : Diddy is probably -1 for Yoshi, don't even got the moment where we submitted -2 -.- was really mad at seeing that.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imma just give my opinion of Yoshi's MU spread cuz he's my characters, I can, and I feel like it.

-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

-2:

Why the hell is MK only -2? He's definitely a -3 for us. Diddy should also be a -1. I do agree with everything else though, and imo the order of difficulty should be:
>>> > > >>>

-1:

uhhhh, why is ICs a disadvantage for us? That's at worst an even MU, and possibly even our advantage. Also, Kirby should be even, he doesnt have anything on us. And once again, the order of difficulty imo:
> > > > > > > > > >>>

0:

Imo we beat Luigi with a solid +1, and Sheilda and Ike should be a -1 for us. Otherwise, I agree. Order if difficulty imo:
> >>> > > > > > > > >>>

1:

Imo, Zelda and Mario should be even and Lucas is a +2. Order of difficulty imo:
> >>> >>> :lucas2:

2:

I completely agree with these. Order of difficulty imo:
> >

3.

I agree. Order of difficulty imo:
>


So in the end, this is what I think our MUs should be in order:

Spoiler

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I saw Z miss several easy grabs and still destroy his first stock, then miss like 10 grabs while basically fishing for them the entire time and lose his second stock, then I saw him miss a very easy edgehog by getting off the ledge too early, then I closed it.

 

[Cassio]

lol! yeah I dunno Im starting to have second thoughts now especially since larry stopped going falco vs Z too. I dunno between larry having an unbeaten record vs pika + some very good pikas saying it was hard + the recent losses Z had vs SK + my personal biases fighting larry I thought +2/-2 was an easy choice. If falcos start refusing to play this MU though I dunno what to say.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i would put larry in the same boat as esam, so dang good the only pikachu i expect to really be able to beat him consistently to be esam -shrug

 

[Marcbri]

wtf most of DDD's match-ups are horribly wrong imo. This character is so underrated and he just DESTROYS mostly everything not in the top tier.

he doesn't lose vs ZSS, I'd say teven or even +1, he wins vs GaW, TL, Kirby, Zelda/Sheik and Peach, all between +1 and +2. He is at least +2 vs Lucario, Should be +3 vs ROB and Ike, at least +2 vs Sonic and +4 vs all chars he has an infinite on.

 

[da K.I.D.]

However now that the community cant use MK as their ultima john, people may actually try to get better.

You know what....

Maybe I will.

wtf most of DDD's match-ups are horribly wrong imo. This character is so underrated and he just DESTROYS mostly everything not in the top tier.

he doesn't lose vs ZSS, I'd say teven or even +1, he wins vs GaW, TL, Kirby, Zelda/Sheik and Peach, all between +1 and +2. He is at least +2 vs Lucario, Should be +3 vs ROB and Ike, at least +2 vs Sonic and +4 vs all chars he has an infinite on.

lol at this post,

first of all to be serious, this matchup list is based off a no infinite ruleset.

second to be stupid. ddd loses to every character he cant cg.

 

[Marcbri]

Oh, forgot about scrub rulesets. edit after L_P post: lol so they aren't banned. How can some match-ups with infinites by DDD with his long range grab not be +4. Also ganon should be +4 too. I would even say any of the characters getting infinited but samus are better at this match-up than ganon.

People thinking DDD is only about his chaingrab like its 2008 lol.

All of those chars have the same problem vs DDD. maybe they can camp him a bit (not all of them). All of them have trouble recovering but G&W, none of them have safe kill setups on him. DDD just needs a couple of powershields to ruin any of those chars stocks, they aren't as safe vs D3 as people think they are. Grab still HURTS without chaingrab, bthrow is 16% leaving the opponent in a bad position and likely to get punished when landing. Inhale is underrated as hell when its an aerial grab and quite a few of the chars I named can't avoid it if they are shielding a DDD camping the air trying to get in. (maybe G&W would be the only one with a well timed upb, and still hard to do).

 

[Luigi player]

Huh? Unity Ruleset doesn't have the infinite banned so it was taken into account for this.

 

[Cassio]

Yeah I think it was taken into account.

Not to say that one view is more correct then the other, but I think Europe generally has a more favorable opinion of DDD especially among its player mains.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah I think it was taken into account.

Not to say that one view is more correct then the other, but I think Europe generally has a more favorable opinion of DDD especially among its player mains.

Except nobody in Europe mains DDD =7

 

[Z'zgashi]

Coming from someone in the URC, infinites are allowed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hrm...

I'm requesting write ups for the following MUs:

Ike v D3 (Curiosity)
Marth v ICs (See above)
Sheilda v D3 (^^^^)
Diddy v Peach (^^^^)
Ike v Bowser (Because it should be clearly +1 for Ike)
Ike v Mario (See above)
Ike v Jigglypuff (Because this one is just dang confusing as to how on earth neutral was reached)

I'm fulling expecting the last three to take forever to get to.

 

[Doc King]

You know what....

Maybe I will.


lol at this post,

first of all to be serious, this matchup list is based off a no infinite ruleset.

second to be stupid. ddd loses to every character he cant cg.

2. Not , , , and . He goes even with , , and and has a complete advantage on .

The one thing I find very ******** (And pisses me off) is how ppl think that just because D3 don't have a chaingrab on someone, then it's considered a bad matchup and if he does have one, then it's a good matchup. I mean look at and compared to . Diddy wins solidly because his bananas are so great on D3 and D3's poor mobility just can't compete with Diddy's bananas. Diddy's bananas can also stop D3 from chain grabbing and approaching, overall making it a hard matchup for him. As for the climbers, you have pretty broken chaingrabs (Which can be used on every character) and D3 won't be able to chaingrab them until they are separated. For Zelda, D3 has a solid bair string on Zelda, D3's has a move that's one of the few moves that can punish Zelda's up smash, D3 can kill Zelda stupid early, and D3 can avoid Zelda's side b really easily with his spot dodge and can outrange her moves with f tilt (Which Zelda's moves have pretty far ranges).

Saying D3 loses to all unchaingrabbable characters is like saying Fox in melee loses to unwaveshinable characters. And Fox vs. Kirby is like the freaking best matchup in the game (Like +4 Fox favor). Fox vs. Marth is pretty even and is like one of Fox's worst matchups.

Overall, you shouldn't base one characters mechanic into their complete matchups because they have like 20 something other moves and their are a whole other bunch of things that make up matchups.

 

[BSP]

Europe doesn't have much sonic rep. either does it?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I like how Doc King got trolled by Kid.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Europe doesn't have much sonic rep. either does it?

We have Greward who is the most amazing Sonic in the universe.

 

[Cassio]

Ikes and diddys have been good about write-ups, hopefully theyll see it. The Marth ICs and Shielda D3 ones may take some time, especially shielda.

Except nobody in Europe mains DDD =7

Even though I said that, I meant it more as a statement to the US DDD's.

 

[NickRiddle]

Oh, forgot about scrub rulesets. edit after L_P post: lol so they aren't banned. How can some match-ups with infinites by DDD with his long range grab not be +4. Also ganon should be +4 too. I would even say any of the characters getting infinited but samus are better at this match-up than ganon.

People thinking DDD is only about his chaingrab like its 2008 lol.

All of those chars have the same problem vs DDD. maybe they can camp him a bit (not all of them). All of them have trouble recovering but G&W, none of them have safe kill setups on him. DDD just needs a couple of powershields to ruin any of those chars stocks, they aren't as safe vs D3 as people think they are. Grab still HURTS without chaingrab, bthrow is 16% leaving the opponent in a bad position and likely to get punished when landing. Inhale is underrated as hell when its an aerial grab and quite a few of the chars I named can't avoid it if they are shielding a DDD camping the air trying to get in. (maybe G&W would be the only one with a well timed upb, and still hard to do).

Doc King 2.0

 

[Ussi]

Hrm...

I'm requesting write ups for the following MUs:

Ike v D3 (Curiosity)
Ike v Bowser (Because it should be clearly +1 for Ike)
Ike v Mario (See above)
Ike v Jigglypuff (Because this one is just dang confusing as to how on earth neutral was reached)

I'm fulling expecting the last three to take forever to get to.

Ike/D3 didn't have a discussion (I think an error happened when submitting our MU chart so it got defaulted to -2)

Ike/Bowser - final panel voted for even

Ike/Mario - final panel voted for even (unanimous)

Ike/Jigglypuff - no Ikes argued for +1 besides Nysyarc so no discussion

 

[Cassio]

I think we still have to do write-ups even if there was no phase 2. Especially if the MU changed.

 

[Ussi]

Well none of those MUs changed

 

[Cassio]

Well, we still do write-ups if theyre requested I think, some panels have.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm gonna preface this by saying that we didn't list our MUs in order, so I won't really be addressing any problems you have with that.

Imma just give my opinion of Yoshi's MU spread cuz he's my characters, I can, and I feel like it.





Why the hell is MK only -2? He's definitely a -3 for us. Diddy should also be a -1. I do agree with everything else though, and imo the order of difficulty should be:
>>> > > >>>

We argued MK for a -3, but midway through the discussion, the MKs stopped responding so the MU was left up to a final panel that voted based on what was presented in the thread. Apparently, what we presented wasn't enough to sway enough minds to a -3.

I'd have to relook at our own panel's discussion for Diddy as a -2. I personally struggle with the MU (then again I really only play ADHD in it), and I really just don't see what we have to make it not awful with us. It could certainly be a -1, and I'm sort of torn between -1 and -2 personally, but since I had to put a number down I put it as a -2 myself.

uhhhh, why is ICs a disadvantage for us? That's at worst an even MU, and possibly even our advantage. Also, Kirby should be even, he doesnt have anything on us. And once again, the order of difficulty imo:
> > > > > > > > > >>>

ICs was a MU that was overlooked (which is understandable because Yoshis submitted around 20 changes). We both submitted +1 in our favor. We're fixing it at the moment, and it looks like we'll just be settling on even for it.

Kirby was also overlooked and is currently being discussed. I agree, it should be even and we're arguing it at the moment. Same also applies to GnW.

Imo we beat Luigi with a solid +1, and Sheilda and Ike should be a -1 for us. Otherwise, I agree. Order if difficulty imo:
> >>> > > > > > > > >>>

Luigi and Ike are pretty borderline between +/-1 and 0, in my opinion. We actually discussed the matchup with the Ike panel and came to a 0. We just left Luigi as a 0.

Sheilda shouldn't really be doing any better against us than Sheik does, and Sheik is a 0. If she switches to Zelda to attempt to kill we get significant advantages, as we don't really get killed by Zelda easily.

Imo, Zelda and Mario should be even and Lucas is a +2. Order of difficulty imo:
> >>> >>> :lucas2:

That's where I disagree with you. Zelda doesn't really have anything on us, at all, while we have a better mid range game than her as well as an easier time juggling, recovering, edge guarding, etc. We actually argued for a +2 but didn't get it.

Mario is a similar case, but less extreme. He recovers fine and doesn't have as much trouble with juggles or landing, but we have an easier time at neutral than he does. Most of his options at neutral are relatively easy to cover between Usmash and pivot grab.

As someone who's played Pink Fresh, I cannot see Lucas as a +2. It's not as easy as you think.

 

[Ussi]

Ike and Yoshi didn't discuss anything, we both agreed to 0 on our own.

 

[Alphicans]

I thought the MKs agreed with +1/-1 vs GaW. Oh well.

 

[BioDG]

What the...? How the Falco MU only a -1 disadvantage for ZSS? I always thought it was a solid -2.