Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[infiniteV115]

Doesn't matter what LzR says, he's from Finland. I don't even know where Finland is so there's no point in taking his opinions into consideration

 

[Doc King]

Why is Marth vs Pikachu even?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJLmgnFpJg8

Doesn't matter what LzR says, he's from Finland. I don't even know where Finland is so there's no point in taking his opinions into consideration

THIS!

 

[Cassio]

Im skipping over posts that are clearly bias while also not acknowledging or understanding their lack of knowledge on certain subjects.

If you have an honest concern dont attempt to present it from a high horse because theres a very strong chance the people who determined the MU have a lot more knowledge and experience.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ganon vs Luigi is evidently even.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i have no real discrepancies but i would like the pit ddd write up if that could come soon and the pit pika write up. im probably one of the only pits who IS suprised DDD has gone from getting countered (b4 the MU chart) to getting gayed (MU chart 1) to going even. im also one of the few who will not be suprised that pika is a -1 but still those are my only curiosities. glad snake was correctly labled as even.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Im skipping over posts that are clearly bias while also not acknowledging or understanding their lack of knowledge on certain subjects.

If you have an honest concern dont attempt to present it from a high horse because theres a very strong chance the people who determined the MU have a lot more knowledge and experience.

At the same time, I do believe their was an extremely strong bias from that panel.

Not to say their were legitimate stances, but I would defiantly say there is a bias from that panel and some others that was apparent.

 

[Cassius.]

So how are we going to know which MU writeups are in dire need to be presented? Are we just going to have to cycle through the pages and figure it out from there?

Was a Pika-MK writeup made? I can't check since I'm on my phone derpderp

 

[Cassio]

I was speaking in general and of the project as a whole. I'd say every person is bias towards their personal experiences, thats why we have this project and its procedure in the first place. Im not sure which panel you're talking about, but if were making personal assessments of bias then anyone could say that about any panel. As I said earlier its respectful to acknowledge that those who hold the most knowledge and experience are doing their best to be accurate, most times theres not much else to rely on unless we strictly follow results and in the end people can just continually point fingers at each other and accuse them of bias, but were still left with relying on those who know how to talk about the MU.

Also the pit-pika, MK-pika and Marth-pika write-ups are completed and will be released after theyve been reviewed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

WTF at Diddy gimping ZSS better than she gimps him. Does P-1 even have experience in this MU?

Yes; he has a lot of it, in fact, with a great player.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

-4:
-3:
-2:

These are what I believe to be Mario's real bad match-ups. Only characters Mario has an avantage against for sure are Falcon and Yoshi. Ganon, Zelda, Link and Puff are somewhere between 0 and +1 for Mario.

Ganon doesn't lose vs Mario, Luigi and Falcon imho.

Mario doesn't lose to Diddy that badly. He has the tools to fight Diddy and force approaches. His cape is really good when you know what you are doing and he is pretty good at gimping Diddy. Flip kick does destroy most of Mario's options though, but I still think this match up is -1.

 

[B.A.M.]

LOL P-1 SAID ZSS DSMASH IS NOT SAFE ON SHIELD. PAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH/ Thread

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i just realized that after apex, pit will have a high tier MU spread without MK around. even if he isn't there on the actual tier list, only having five -1 MUs is high tier material with no MK around to invalidate him. MK could have easily been -3 imo but he's irrelevant in 10 days so whatever.

so ya.

got em

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How do you know that Pit's -1s aren't going to get worse with MK gone?

 

[B.A.M.]

He doesnt Jebus. How do u know they wont get better? Its always changing. Ppl get better people learn new things.

However now that the community cant use MK as their ultima john, people may actually try to get better.

 

[Juushichi]

We don't and they might.

In terms of this chart's indication however, he's high tier. Or at least that's what Maha is saying.

 

[Player-1]

LOL P-1 SAID ZSS DSMASH IS NOT SAFE ON SHIELD. PAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH/ Thread

I said that dsmash sets up into all of those moves that were listed and that said moves are unsafe on shield, not that dsmash is unsafe on shield.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Here is the Pikachu vs Metaknight write-up

[collapse=Pikachu vs MK]Seeing as Pikachu is now the only character with an even match-up against Metaknight, we felt like we should explain this. There will be 2 parts to this explanation: the Match-up itself and then comparing to other contenders for the 0 with MK.

Pikachu vs MK is basically all RPS situations. MK has the slight edge on spacing and safety, but Pikachu gets much more per-hit because of follow-ups. Pikachu's projectile also helps because it makes MK initiate. Couple this with the fact that Pikachu is an amazing punisher and you get a pretty good situation for Pikachu. MK's safety is his main attribute in this MU, and it is mostly for pokes more than camping. Pikachu's uair is a really good move to combat dair camping, and planking is rendered semi-useless with T-jolts. MK's safety translates to his kill game. D-smash is pretty safe and at max range it is near impossible to punish without a power shield. However, it won't kill consistently until the 130% range while Pikachu's more punishable kill moves will take a stock closer to 105-110% (F-smash or u-tilt/u-smash thunder).

Now, there are 2-3 candidates that could be even with MK, and those are Diddy, Falco, and Fox. A huge factor that Pikachu has above all of those is the fact that Pikachu doesn't get gimped. All of the other 3 are in REALLY bad situations if they are ever off-stage, while Pikachu is pretty safe. Diddy has better ground control than all, and fox/falco can camp better than diddy/pikachu. Pikachu has all of those abilities, but is outshined. The gimping is a huge factor because there is honestly more of a chance of Pikachu getting a fluke kill due to MK having bad DI than getting gimped. Pikachu also doesn't suffer from stages like those 3 since he can definitely handle RC, Delfino, and Frigate (Although Pikachu will always ban Brinstar). [/collapse]

Just to circumvent Marc having to realize it and edit it on here.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

We don't and they might.

In terms of this chart's indication however, he's high tier. Or at least that's what Maha is saying.

Exactly, just because the match up chart is like this with MK around, doesn't mean it's going to be like this with MK gone. From what I've seen in the past, it looks like his match ups are only going to get worse unless they remove the LGL.

 

[Doc King]

i have no real discrepancies but i would like the pit ddd write up if that could come soon and the pit pika write up. im probably one of the only pits who IS suprised DDD has gone from getting countered (b4 the MU chart) to getting gayed (MU chart 1) to going even. im also one of the few who will not be suprised that pika is a -1 but still those are my only curiosities. glad snake was correctly labled as even.

Well, 4God beat TheOneJanitor's Pit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4QQB8Vw0-_0

Here is the Pikachu vs Metaknight write-up

[collapse=Pikachu vs MK]Seeing as Pikachu is now the only character with an even match-up against Metaknight, we felt like we should explain this. There will be 2 parts to this explanation: the Match-up itself and then comparing to other contenders for the 0 with MK.

Pikachu vs MK is basically all RPS situations. MK has the slight edge on spacing and safety, but Pikachu gets much more per-hit because of follow-ups. Pikachu's projectile also helps because it makes MK initiate. Couple this with the fact that Pikachu is an amazing punisher and you get a pretty good situation for Pikachu. MK's safety is his main attribute in this MU, and it is mostly for pokes more than camping. Pikachu's uair is a really good move to combat dair camping, and planking is rendered semi-useless with T-jolts. MK's safety translates to his kill game. D-smash is pretty safe and at max range it is near impossible to punish without a power shield. However, it won't kill consistently until the 130% range while Pikachu's more punishable kill moves will take a stock closer to 105-110% (F-smash or u-tilt/u-smash thunder).

Now, there are 2-3 candidates that could be even with MK, and those are Diddy, Falco, and Fox. A huge factor that Pikachu has above all of those is the fact that Pikachu doesn't get gimped. All of the other 3 are in REALLY bad situations if they are ever off-stage, while Pikachu is pretty safe. Diddy has better ground control than all, and fox/falco can camp better than diddy/pikachu. Pikachu has all of those abilities, but is outshined. The gimping is a huge factor because there is honestly more of a chance of Pikachu getting a fluke kill due to MK having bad DI than getting gimped. Pikachu also doesn't suffer from stages like those 3 since he can definitely handle RC, Delfino, and Frigate (Although Pikachu will always ban Brinstar). [/collapse]

Just to circumvent Marc having to realize it and edit it on here.

I knew that was the reason!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS/Snake is even
ZSS/Wario is even. Why does anyone think this is -1? lol
ZSS/Kirby is +2. Sorry, Kewkky, you're wrong.
ZSS/Diddy is -2, but almost everything P-1 said is wrong so lol

Can someone explain how the Olimar verdict was found? The last time in like six months any ZSS player that matters even played an Olimar was 1-stock at Concentrate 2 and even then Olimar lost, that MU was always +1 or 0. What changed here?

LOL at Marth's ridiculous match-up spread

 

[SaveMeJebus]

ZSS/Diddy is -2, but almost everything P-1 said is wrong so lol

Really? Even with the infinite? I think the match up is pretty easy but none of the players I play know the infinite.

 

[Zigsta]

Dakpo's good at the infinite. Off the top of my head, he's done it to Gnes, ADHD, and Dekar.

 

[Dabuz]

Can someone explain how the Olimar verdict was found? The last time in like six months any ZSS player that matters even played an Olimar was 1-stock at Concentrate 2 and even then Olimar lost, that MU was always +1 or 0. What changed here?

LOL at Marth's ridiculous match-up spread

Both sides came to the same consensus by themselves that olimar has the advantage.

-Olimar's camping game is notably problematic for ZSS.
-The kill power and damage potential of olimar is notably better than what ZSS has.
-Olimar's whistle makes it VERY difficult for ZSS to actually kill olimar.
-ZSS doesn't have strong CP stages on olimar, but olimar has a couple strong CPs on ZSS.
-The main thing that has changed in the MU: Olimar's jump-cancelled upsmash out of shield has resulted in ZSS attacks no longer being as safe as they once were. Such as: Jab, dash attack, and any tilts.


Also, one-stock isn't a good point to argue on because one-stock is inherently different than 3 stock, especially against ZSS.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, they weren't kidding when they said Pikachu's chart would be ridiculous.

Other than that, well done.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

for those that complain about pikachus spread, either both sides came to a consensus or it went to an unbiased panel, of which we won as many as we lost. if you are looking for someone to blame because you dont like our spread dont just look at us

 

[B.A.M.]

The pikachu v. MK write up makes perfect sense to me. Recovering is honestly the only reasons why I think characters like Falco,Fox, Diddy, Snake, heck even Marth should be stated as losing the MK MU ( Although I do feel Snake should be even thats just me though.)

 

[Cassio]

Stealth hes not upset about the spread. Hes upset about pika vs MK, lol.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

it wasnt aimed at him lol

 

[Cassio]

Oh, well pikas spread more or less reflects his tier position, esp since diddy and snake are lower by a number of spots. Itd be odd for someone to complain about that unless they were complaining just to complain.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The pikachu v. MK write up makes perfect sense to me. Recovering is honestly the only reasons why I think characters like Falco,Fox, Diddy, Snake, heck even Marth should be stated as losing the MK MU ( Although I do feel Snake should be even thats just me though.)

I don't see it that way. By that logic, Olimar would get destroyed by MK. Most characters balance themselves out by having a better ground game than MK.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

^ which is what the olimars argued to death and then lost lol

 

[Steam]

the only thing I don't agree with pikachu's is the MK matchup... otherwise it's not terrible.

Marth has the stupidest MU spread lol. ICs are kinda iffy too.

and quite a few of MKs matchups are still undersold IMHO

 

[Player-1]

ZSS/Diddy is -2, but almost everything P-1 said is wrong so lol

Diddy has way better item control than Zero Suit Samus does, and can easily get control of them

yup, obviously ZSS's item control is way better than Diddy's. Diddy doesn't have an amazing dash attack, fast aerials for catching bananas, fast item throws, the best glidetoss for item control or anything

the fact that she is really good at juggling Diddy, and Diddy's poor drift speed doesn't help either.

yeah, her juggling game isn't good against Diddy at all, I forgot how it's super difficult for a character with a fast uair that easily frame traps and a dsmash that wrecks the **** out of air dodges to juggle a character with one of the worst air speeds in the game

ZSS does have some tricks she can use with bananas if she does get control of them that can lead into some nasty combos. Also, Zero Suit Samus has an infinite on Diddy if no platforms get in our way. It's probably one of the easiest infinites to set up in the game too, BUT it's still difficult to set up if the Diddy is watching out for it. ZSS can do a footstool variation infinite that she can easily get with a dsmash. Unfortunately for her though, she can't do a dsmash while holding a banana, so in order for her to land the infinite, she has to have a banana near her while she gets the dsmash. Probably the most common setup for this is a glidetoss to dsmash since the banana will land right near her to get it. She has a long glidetoss so if she is faraway with a banana in your hand then be prepared for it.

yup, ZSS doesn't have an infinite on Diddy at all and it's super difficult to setup, I forgot that ZSS's glidetoss is complete **** and can't set up at all with it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=plte_8jCTvc#t=300s

Alternately, ZSS is also in the group of characters that has the easiest infinite timing for Diddy in the game and since her moves are very unsafe on shield when Diddy has a banana in his hand then it easily lead into an infinite if they're not careful as well.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307620

I feel that ZSS has a very hard time killing Diddy if Diddy just sits in his shield. Her kill moves are pretty much just bair, uair, side-b, and dsmash sets up into all of those, which are all very unsafe on shield if Diddy has a banana in his hand.

yeah, Diddy doesn't have one of the best shields in the game or anything, obviously sitting in his shield is unsafe when she tries to get kills especially because her grab and throws are so good at killing.

Diddy can gimp ZSS a bit better than she can gimp Diddy, but both characters can get back to the stage fairly well against each other. Diddy can mess with her while she tries to tether recover with items and the such, but if she's careful then it won't matter too much. Her down-b can footstool items too to help recover. Against Diddy, she can dsmash us out of a poorly spaced side-b to the edge as well as drop of the edge and up-b back to get her invincibility frames back fast.

Neither character can do much to each other while recovering to gimp one another, but I'd have to give the slight edge to Diddy.

I like to ban Brinstar as Diddy in this MU. If they know the infinite and you don't want to take any chances then FD wouldn't be bad to ban either. I'll counterpick FD (if they don't know the infinite), SV, or BF against Zero Suit Samus.

Would love to hear what stages you think are the best to CP/Ban for Diddy in this MU. I mean if FD/SV/BF aren't good stages to CP with Diddy (a character with one of the best ground games and stage control in the game) then IDK what would be.

yup, I'm completely wrong on just about everything.





/sarcasm

 

[Espy Rose]

If Marc is saying that this chart is supposed to reflect both top and high level play like he does in the first post, then Pika vs. MK is not even.

 

[Cassio]

You say that as if theres a significant difference in the amount of high level vs top level players for pika

 

[Kewkky]

ZSS/Snake is even
ZSS/Wario is even. Why does anyone think this is -1? lol
ZSS/Kirby is +2. Sorry, Kewkky, you're wrong.
ZSS/Diddy is -2, but almost everything P-1 said is wrong so lol

Can someone explain how the Olimar verdict was found? The last time in like six months any ZSS player that matters even played an Olimar was 1-stock at Concentrate 2 and even then Olimar lost, that MU was always +1 or 0. What changed here?

LOL at Marth's ridiculous match-up spread

If you and me played, you'd probably say it's even. The MU's a +1/-1, I main both at a high level (kirby better though), I see it from both sides of the MU. Why do you think you're right?


EDIT: I don't mean it to sound like I'm trash-talking about my skill, cuz I'm not. I'm just saying I know both characters at tourney level so I probably view the MU differently, and I honestly believe it to be true. You just know ZSS at tourney level.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

tag, dont feed the espy troll, just let him say hes better then all the pikas and knows more then us and laugh at him in silence lol

 

[Cassio]

I like Espy tho

 

[Espy Rose]

But my Pika beats Prime's.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

^didnt you just say not too long ago that dittos dont decide anything?