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Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

Discussion in 'Brawl Competitive Discussion' started by Marc, Dec 29, 2011.

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  1. Marc

    Marc
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    Revival of M

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    • Tournament Organizer
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    Sep 14, 2002
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    Location:
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    v1: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298484

    This is the second version of the BBR matchup chart, which displays ratings of all matchups in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Aside from scores that changed as opposed to v1, there are some procedural changes for this iteration.

    While we worked with panels again, we also asked outsiders for help and gave them access to a subforum created specifically for this project. Although not everyone invited took this opportunity to do their part, overall character representation was better than for v1. In the end we had close to 150 people participating from both inside and outside the BBR, making this the first major Smashboards project that can be seen as a community effort. I’d like to thank all panel leaders and Ankoku, ESAM, Ishieymoro, Krystedez, Red Ryu, Shaya, Slhoka, Twinkie and Zigsta in particular for their help with finalizing scores and preparing the final release.

    A common complaint with v1 is that the scores by itself don’t tell you how to play the matchup. While we still won’t likely cover all ~700 matchups in the game, there is an initial batch of writeups included. We would like to ask you, the public, to list what matchups you would most like to see writeups on and we will attempt to add them over time. Furthermore, if you are willing to do a writeup of your own or update an existing one, feel free to send me a PM. This also goes for any mistakes and inconsistencies you might spot, as most of this is the result of manual labour.

    Sheilda is still treated as its own entity in order to be consistent with the tier list and v1. The combination does better than either Sheik or Zelda individually in a few matchups, these have been marked with a * in her individual spread.

    Finally, some information with regards to reading the chart. This time around characters in the main chart are ordered by their average score against the rest of the cast, as tier lists get outdated and it makes more sense this way. At the end of every line of scores you will find the number of winning, losing and even matchups for that character, as well as their average score and difference in placement with the current tier list (BBR tier list v6.0). You will also find that characters within the individual spreads, found below the chart, are ordered by alphabet. There are some exceptions: these panels internally agreed on an order of difficulty, with left being hardest and right being easiest within any given tier of matchup difficulty.

    Note that for all scores a competitive level of play is assumed and the performance of top and high level players was generally considered more strongly than what is seen in lower level play. Keep in mind that the chart does not necessarily reflect the opinions and performances of absolute outliers and is ultimately a consensus between people who are assumed to know their character. Furthermore, the Unity ruleset was kept in mind.



    The Matchup Chart

    [​IMG]

    [collapse=Individual Character Spreads] :metaknight:
    0: :pikachu2:
    1: :diddy: :falco: :fox: :marth: :olimar: :popo: :snake: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
    2: :dedede: :gw: :kirby2: :lucario: :lucas: :ness2: :pit: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :toonlink: :wario: :yoshi2:
    3: :bowser2: :dk2: :falcon: :ike: :jigglypuff: :link2: :luigi2: :peach: :pt: :mario2: :rob: :samus2:
    4: :ganondorf: :zelda:


    :popo:
    -1: :metaknight: :peach: :toonlink: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :diddy: :lucario: :marth: :rob: :snake: :wario: :wolf: :yoshi2:
    1: :ike: :ness2: :pikachu2: :pit: :sonic:
    2: :dk2: :falco: :jigglypuff: :kirby2: :link2: :lucas: :luigi2: :mario2: :olimar: :pt: :samus2:
    3: :dedede: :falcon: :fox: :gw: :sheik: :sheilda: :zelda:
    4: :bowser2: :ganondorf:


    :olimar:
    -2: :popo:
    -1: :falco: :marth: :metaknight:
    0: :diddy: :ness2: :peach: :pit: :wario: :wolf:
    1: :fox: :gw: :lucario: :luigi2: :mario2: :pt: :sheik: :sheilda: :snake: :toonlink: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    2: :bowser2: :dedede: :ike: :kirby2: :lucas: :pikachu2: :rob: :sonic:
    3: :dk2: :falcon: :jigglypuff: :link2: :samus2:
    4: :ganondorf: :zelda:


    :marth:
    -1: :dedede: :diddy: :metaknight:
    0: :dk2: :popo: :pikachu2: :rob: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
    1: :falco: :fox: :ike: :kirby2: :lucario: :olimar: :peach: :pit: :sheik: :sheilda: :snake: :sonic: :toonlink: :yoshi2:
    2: :bowser2: :falcon: :gw: :link2: :luigi2: :mario2: :samus2: :wario:
    3: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff: :lucas: :ness2: :pt: :zelda:


    :falco:
    -2: :popo: :pikachu2:
    -1: :marth: :metaknight:
    0: :diddy: :fox: :kirby2: :lucario: :pit: :sheik: :sheilda: :snake: :wario:
    1: :gw: :ike: :lucas: :olimar: :peach: :toonlink: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
    2: :bowser2: :dedede: :dk2: :jigglypuff: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :pt: :rob: :sonic: :yoshi2:
    3: :falcon: :samus2: :zelda:
    4: :link2: :ganondorf:


    :pikachu2: (ordered)
    -2: :olimar:
    -1: :diddy: :popo: :lucario: :gw:
    0: :ness2: :peach: :metaknight: :marth: :wario: :toonlink: :kirby2:
    +1: :zerosuitsamus: :mario2: :ike: :sonic: :pit: :rob: :snake: :luigi2: :yoshi2:
    +2: :lucas: :dk2: :dedede: :pt: :samus2: :jigglypuff: :falco: :bowser2: :sheilda: :zelda: :link2:
    +3::wolf: :sheik: :fox: :ganondorf: :falcon:


    :snake:
    -1: :dedede: :marth: :metaknight: :olimar: :pikachu2:
    0: :falco: :popo: :pit: :wario:
    1: :diddy: :dk2: :fox: :gw: :ike: :kirby2: :lucario: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :toonlink: :wolf: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    2: :bowser2: :falcon: :link2: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :peach: :pt: :samus2:
    3: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff: :lucas: :zelda:


    :diddy:
    -1: :metaknight: :snake:
    0: :falco: :popo: :kirby2: :luigi2: :olimar: :peach: :pit: :sheik: :sheilda: :toonlink: :wario:
    1: :fox: :ike: :lucario: :mario2: :marth: :ness2: :pikachu2: :rob: :sonic: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
    2: :bowser2: :dedede: :dk2: :falcon: :gw: :jigglypuff: :link2: :lucas: :pt: :yoshi2: :zelda:
    3: :ganondorf: :samus2:


    :dedede:
    -3: :popo:
    -2: :diddy: :falco: :metaknight: :olimar: :pikachu2: :zerosuitsamus:
    -1: :fox: :sheilda:
    0: :gw: :kirby2: :peach: :pit: :sheik: :toonlink:
    1: :lucario: :marth: :snake: :sonic: :yoshi2:
    2: :falcon: :ike: :jigglypuff: :lucas: :luigi2: :rob: :wario: :zelda:
    3: :ganondorf: :link2: :ness2: :mario2: :pt: :samus2: :wolf:
    4: :bowser2: :dk2:


    :wario:
    -2: :dedede: :marth: :metaknight:
    -1: :peach:
    0: :diddy: :falco: :gw: :popo: :olimar: :pikachu2: :sheik: :sheilda: :snake: :yoshi2:
    1: :falcon: :fox: :ike: :kirby2: :lucario: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :pit: :rob: :sonic: :toonlink: :zerosuitsamus:
    2: :dk2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :lucas: :pt: :samus2: :wolf: :zelda:
    3: :bowser2: :ganondorf:


    :zerosuitsamus:
    -1: :diddy: :falco: :metaknight: :olimar: :pikachu2: :snake: :wario:
    0: :fox: :lucario: :marth: :peach: :pit: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :toonlink: :wolf:
    1: :gw: :popo: :ike: :kirby2: :lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :pt: :samus2: :yoshi2:
    2: :bowser2: :dedede: :dk2: :falcon: :link2: :luigi2: :rob:
    3: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff: :zelda:


    :gw:
    -3: :popo:
    -2: :diddy: :marth: :metaknight:
    -1: :falco: :olimar: :snake: :toonlink: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :dedede: :fox: :wario: :wolf:
    1: :dk2: :ike: :kirby2: :link2: :lucario: :luigi2: :peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :yoshi2:
    2: :bowser2: :falcon: :lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :pt: :samus2:
    3: :ganondorf: :zelda:
    4: :jigglypuff:


    :toonlink:
    -2: :metaknight:
    -1: :falco: :marth: :olimar: :snake: :wario: :wolf:
    0: :dedede: :diddy: :fox: :lucario: :pikachu2: :pit: :samus2: :sheik: :sheilda: :zerosuitsamus:
    1: :dk2: :falcon: :gw: :popo: :ike: :kirby2: :luigi2: :mario2: :peach: :rob: :sonic: :yoshi2:
    2: :bowser2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :lucas: :ness2: :pt: :zelda:
    3: :ganondorf:


    :lucario:
    -2: :metaknight:
    -1: :dedede: :diddy: :fox: :gw: :olimar: :marth: :snake: :wario:
    0: :dk2: :falco: :popo: :kirby2: :luigi2: :ness2: :pit: :toonlink: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
    1: :bowser2: :ike: :lucas: :mario2: :peach: :pikachu2: :rob:
    2: :falcon: :jigglypuff: :link2: :pt: :samus2: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :yoshi2: :zelda:
    3: :ganondorf:


    :pit:
    -2: :metaknight:
    -1: :gw: :popo: :marth: :pikachu2: :wario:
    0: :dedede: :diddy: :falco: :fox: :kirby2: :peach: :lucario: :olimar: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :snake: :sonic: :toonlink: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
    1: :ike: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :pt: :samus2: :yoshi2:
    2: :bowser2: :dk2: :falcon: :jigglypuff: :link2: :lucas: :zelda:
    3: :ganondorf:


    :peach:
    -3: :metaknight:
    -2: :snake:
    -1: :falco: :fox: :gw: :lucario: :marth: :toonlink: :wolf:
    0: :dedede: :diddy: :dk2: :ike: :kirby2: :olimar: :pikachu2: :pit: :rob: :samus2: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    1: :popo: :luigi2: :pt: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :wario:
    2: :bowser2: :falcon: :jigglypuff: :link2: :lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :zelda:
    3: :ganondorf:


    :wolf: (ordered)
    -3: :dedede: | :pikachu2:
    -2: :wario:
    -1: :metaknight: :snake: | :sheilda: :sheik: :diddy: :falco:
    0: :popo: :marth: :olimar: :rob: :pit: | :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :fox: | :gw: :kirby2:
    1: :toonlink: :ike: | :sonic: :peach: :lucas: :dk2: | :bowser2: :luigi2:
    2: :ness2: :pt: :mario2: :yoshi2: | :link2: :samus2: :jigglypuff: | :zelda: :ganondorf: :falcon:


    :kirby2:
    -2: :popo: :metaknight: :olimar:
    -1: :gw: :marth: :snake: :toonlink: :wario: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :dedede: :diddy: :dk2: :falco: :lucario: :ness2: :peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :rob: :sonic: :wolf:
    1: :bowser2: :fox: :ike: :luigi2: :mario2: :pt: :samus2: :yoshi2:
    2: :falcon: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff: :link2: :lucas: :sheik: :sheilda: :zelda:


    :sheilda:
    -3: :popo:
    -2: :kirby2: :lucario: :metaknight: :pikachu2:
    -1: :gw: :luigi2: :marth: :olimar: :peach: :snake:
    0: :diddy: :dk2: :falco: :ike: :pit: :rob:* :sonic: :toonlink: :wario: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    1: :bowser2: :dedede:* :jigglypuff: :mario2: :ness2: :pt: :sheik:* :wolf: :zelda:
    2: :falcon: :samus2:
    3: :fox: :link2: :lucas:
    4: :ganondorf:


    :fox:
    -3: :popo: :pikachu2: :sheik: :sheilda:
    -2:
    -1: :diddy: :kirby2: :marth: :metaknight: :olimar: :snake: :wario:
    0: :falco: :gw: :ike: :ness2: :pit: :toonlink: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
    1: :dedede: :falcon: :lucario: :lucas: :luigi2: :mario2: :peach: :pt: :samus2: :sonic: :yoshi2:
    2: :bowser2: :dk2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :rob: :zelda:
    3: :ganondorf:


    :sheik:
    -3: :popo: :pikachu2:
    -2: :kirby2: :lucario: :metaknight:
    -1: :gw: :luigi2: :marth: :olimar: :peach: :rob: :sheilda: :snake:
    0: :dedede: :diddy: :dk2: :falco: :ike: :pit: :sonic: :toonlink: :wario: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    1: :bowser2: :jigglypuff: :mario2: :ness2: :pt: :wolf: :zelda:
    2: :falcon: :samus2:
    3: :fox: :link2: :lucas:
    4: :ganondorf:


    :rob:
    -3: :metaknight:
    -2: :dedede: :falco: :fox: :olimar: :zerosuitsamus:
    -1: :diddy: :gw: :lucario: :pikachu2: :snake: :toonlink: :wario:
    0: :dk2: :popo: :kirby2: :marth: :peach: :pit: :sheilda: :wolf:
    1: :bowser2: :ike: :link2: :lucas: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :pt: :samus2: :sheik: :sonic: :yoshi2: :zelda:
    2: :falcon:
    3: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff:


    :yoshi2:
    -2: :diddy: :falco: :lucario: :metaknight: :wolf:
    -1: :dedede: :fox: :gw: :kirby2: :olimar: :marth: :pikachu2: :pit: :rob: :snake: :toonlink: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :dk2: :popo: :ike: :luigi2: :ness2: :peach: :samus2: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :wario:
    1: :falcon: :lucas: :mario2: :zelda:
    2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :pt:
    3: :bowser2: :ganondorf:


    :sonic:
    -2: :falco: :lucario: :metaknight: :olimar:
    -1: :dedede: :diddy: :fox: :gw: :popo: :marth: :peach: :pikachu2: :rob: :snake: :toonlink: :wario: :wolf:
    0: :ike: :kirby2: :lucas: :luigi2: :mario2: :pit: :pt: :sheik: :sheilda: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    1: :bowser2: :dk2: :falcon: :jigglypuff: :ness2:
    2: :ganondorf: :link2: :samus2: :zelda:


    :ike:
    -3: :metaknight:
    -2: :dedede: :olimar:
    -1: :diddy: :falco: :gw: :popo: :kirby2: :lucario: :marth: :pikachu2: :pit: :rob: :samus2: :snake: :toonlink: :wario: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :bowser2: :dk2: :fox: :jigglypuff: :mario2: :peach: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :yoshi2:
    1: :falcon: :lucas: :ness2: :zelda:
    2: :ganondorf: :link2: :luigi2: :pt:


    :dk2:
    -4: :dedede:
    -3: :metaknight: :olimar:
    -2: :diddy: :falco: :fox: :popo: :pikachu2: :pit: :wario: :zerosuitsamus:
    -1: :gw: :pt: :snake: :sonic: :toonlink: :wolf:
    0: :ike: :kirby2: :lucario: :marth: :peach: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :yoshi2:
    1: :bowser2: :luigi2: :mario2: :samus2:
    2: :falcon: :ganondorf: :link2: :ness2: :zelda:
    3: :jigglypuff: :lucas:


    :luigi2:
    -3: :metaknight:
    -2: :dedede: :falco: :popo: :ike: :marth: :snake: :zerosuitsamus:
    -1: :dk2: :fox: :gw: :kirby2: :olimar: :peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :pt: :rob: :toonlink: :wario: :wolf:
    0: :diddy: :lucario: :lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :samus2: :sonic: :yoshi2:
    1: :bowser2: :jigglypuff: :sheik: :sheilda:
    2: :falcon: :ganondorf: :link2: :zelda:


    :pt:
    -3: :dedede: :marth: :metaknight:
    -2: :diddy: :falco: :gw: :popo: :ike: :lucario: :pikachu2: :snake: :toonlink: :wario: :wolf: :yoshi2:
    -1: :fox: :kirby2: :olimar: :peach: :pit: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :sonic:
    1: :bowser2: :dk2: :luigi2: :mario2:
    2: :falcon: :jigglypuff: :link2: :lucas: :ness2: :samus2: :zelda:
    3: :ganondorf:


    :ness2:
    -3: :dedede: :marth:
    -2: :dk2: :falco: :gw: :metaknight: :peach: :pt: :snake: :toonlink: :wolf:
    -1: :diddy: :popo: :ike: :pit: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :wario: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :falcon: :fox: :lucario: :luigi2: :kirby2: :mario2: :olimar: :pikachu2: :yoshi2:
    1: :bowser2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :lucas: :samus2: :zelda:
    2: :ganondorf:


    :mario2:
    -3: :dedede: :metaknight:
    -2: :falco: :popo: :gw: :marth: :peach: :snake: :wolf:
    -1: :diddy: :dk2: :fox: :kirby2: :lucario: :lucas: :olimar: :pikachu2: :pit: :pt: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :toonlink: :wario: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :bowser2: :ike: :luigi2: :ness2: :samus2: :sonic:
    1: :falcon: :jigglypuff: :link2: :zelda:
    2: :ganondorf:


    :samus2:
    -3: :dedede: :diddy: :falco: :metaknight: :olimar:
    -2: :popo: :gw: :lucario: :marth: :pikachu2: :pt: :sheik: :sheilda: :snake: :sonic: :wario: :wolf:
    -1: :dk2: :fox: :kirby2: :lucas: :ness2: :pit: :rob: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :falcon: :luigi2: :mario2: :peach: :toonlink: :yoshi2:
    1: :ike: :jigglypuff: :link2:
    2: :bowser2: :zelda:
    3: :ganondorf:


    :lucas:
    -3: :dk2: :marth: :sheik: :sheilda: :snake:
    -2: :dedede: :diddy: :gw: :popo: :kirby2: :metaknight: :olimar: :peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :pt: :toonlink: :wario:
    -1: :bowser2: :falco: :fox: :ike: :lucario: :ness2: :rob: :wolf: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    0: :luigi2: :sonic:
    1: :falcon: :link2: :mario2: :samus2: :zelda:
    2: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff:


    :bowser2: (ordered)
    -4: :popo: | :dedede:
    -3::metaknight: :yoshi2: :wario:
    -2: :olimar: :diddy: :falco: | :snake: :pit: :pikachu2: :peach: | :zerosuitsamus: :toonlink: | :gw: :marth: :fox: :samus2:
    -1: :wolf: :lucario: | :dk2: :sonic: :ness2: :sheilda: :sheik: :rob: :pt: :kirby2: | :zelda: :luigi2:
    0: :ike: :link2: :mario2: :falcon:
    1: :lucas: :ganondorf:
    2: :jigglypuff:


    :falcon:
    -3: :falco: :popo: :metaknight: :olimar: :pikachu2:
    -2: :dedede: :diddy: :dk2: :gw: :kirby2: :lucario: :luigi2: :marth: :peach: :pit: :pt: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :snake: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
    -1: :fox: :ike: :lucas: :mario2: :sonic: :toonlink: :wario: :yoshi2:
    0: :bowser2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :ness2: :samus2: :zelda:
    1: :ganondorf:


    :link2:
    -4: :falco:
    -3: :dedede: :metaknight: :olimar: :sheik: :sheilda:
    -2: :diddy: :dk2: :fox: :popo: :ike: :kirby2: :lucario: :luigi2: :marth: :peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :pt: :snake: :sonic: :toonlink: :wario: :wolf: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    -1: :gw: :lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :rob: :samus2:
    0: :bowser2: :falcon: :jigglypuff:
    1: :ganondorf: :zelda:


    :jigglypuff: (ordered)
    -4: :gw:
    -3: :snake: :marth: :dk2: :metaknight: | :zerosuitsamus: :olimar: :rob:
    -2: :lucario: :toonlink: :pikachu2: :popo: :dedede: | :yoshi2: :bowser2: :peach: :falco: :pit: | :diddy: :wario: :fox: :kirby2: :lucas: :wolf: :pt:
    -1: :sonic: :luigi2: | :sheilda: :sheik: :ness2: :mario2: :samus2:
    0: :ike: | :zelda: :falcon: :link2:
    2: :ganondorf:


    :zelda:
    -4: :metaknight: :olimar:
    -3: :falco: :gw: :popo: :marth: :snake: :zerosuitsamus:
    -2: :dedede: :diddy: :dk2: :fox: :kirby2: :lucario: :luigi2: :peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :pt: :samus2: :sonic: :toonlink: :wario: :wolf:
    -1: :ike: :link2: :lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :yoshi2:
    0: :falcon: :jigglypuff:
    1: :bowser2:
    2: :ganondorf:


    :ganondorf:
    -4: :falco: :popo: :metaknight: :olimar: :sheik: :sheilda:
    -3: :dedede: :diddy: :fox: :gw: :lucario: :marth: :peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :pt: :rob: :samus2: :snake: :toonlink: :wario: :yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
    -2: :dk2: :ike: :jigglypuff: :kirby2: :lucas: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :sonic: :wolf: :zelda:
    -1: :bowser2: :falcon: :link2:[/collapse]
     
  2. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
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    BATCH 1 (included with initial release)

    [COLLAPSE="Bowser vs. Sheik (-1/+1) by Limit129"]Bowser vs Sheik MU Ratio: -1/+1

    :bowser2: :sheik:

    Well, to those who are familiar with Bowser, it would seem kinda stupid to not give Sheik the advantage due to her qualities: An extremely mobile, quick hitting character with the FTilt lock, a projectile (needles), her chain, which presents great ledge pressure, and her DACUS, which cuts Bowser's survivability by a lot in this matchup--Not to mention that she can get a free DACUS via air release as well!

    However, it's not that black and white, simply because one has to assess the other side. Bowser's not a total drag. His Jab is pretty good, and can give Sheik a pretty hard time up close, and his great shield game hurts her physical output as well. She is very easy to chaingrab, and Bowser has many options out of a ground and air release. Sheik's needles are a conditionally linear projectile, meaning that they fire straight only when grounded and angled only when airborne. This poses a bit of a problem because Bowser's aerial Klaw is his staple move and has little to no lag on landing, allowing him to weave in and out of needle range and close the gap when needed. Bowser also hits extremely hard--Sheik's light weight and lack of difficulty for chain grabs does not mitigate that. By comparison, Bowser's heavy weight allows him to live much longer than Sheik can, provided he can avoid the DACUS.

    Overall, Sheik has the advantage and forces Bowser to play a bit of a more meticulous game but her small flaws allow Bowser to shine in certain places and allow him to klaw/fight back in most situations.
    [/COLLAPSE]

    [collapse=Dedede vs Snake (+1/-1) by Technical_Chase]:dedede: vs :snake: SUMMARY
    (+1 KING DEDEDE'S FAVOR)
    (No change from MU chart ver 1.0)


    This is a matchup centered around patience. King Dedede's stellar grab game poses a big threat for Snake through sheer damage output alone. However, the real danger lies in what can happen to the Snake once Dedede has chaingrabbed him to the ledge. With a proper read after a down throw or pummel release off the edge, Dedede has the potential to do massive amounts of damage or even take a stock if he reads correctly. Getting that prized grab is not without a challenge though. Snake's superior projectile game coupled with Dedede's lackluster mobility makes it very difficult for Dedede to approach at times. With patience, Dedede can get inside, but rarely without taking damage. Snake's tilts ensure that rushing in blindly is ill-advised and he is also very good at juggling Dedede due to his large frame and weight. If Dedede loses his position, Snake can pressure him and often rack on the damage while he has the momentum. Dedede on the other hand does have the ability to poke safely once he's gotten into mid-range. Snake must always be cautious with his tilts and grenades at this distance or he will be punished. While Dedede excels when Snake is off stage, Snake is in turn also very good at edgeguarding Dedede and can force Dedede into some compromising positions that lead to a lot of damage. Dedede must be very careful about Mortars, Grenades, and C4s/Landmines in order to get back on the stage safely. Super Dedede Jump is very punishable by most characters; Snake is no exception.

    Overall, this matchup is a fairly close one. Dedede wins in the air and off the stage. Snake generally wins on the stage and both characters have the ability to pressure each other very well when the other is attempting to recover. Snake has an easier time outright killing in this MU, however Dedede's grabs and strong aerials give him more opportunities for a kill as a result of positioning. As both characters will typically be living to high percentages due to their sheer weight, it is not uncommon for this matchup to go (close) to time. Because of the advantages Dedede's chaingrab yields him and his dominance in the air, Dedede is believed to have a slight edge here. However, this is by no means a cakewalk for Dedede. Patience and capitalizing on each other's breaks in defenses is essential for both characters' victory.

    Recommended vids:

    Seibrik vs MVD

    Bizkit vs Atomsk

    Fatal vs Atomsk
    [/collapse]

    [collapse=Dedede vs Sheik (0/0) by Technical_Chase]:dedede: vs :sheik: SUMMARY
    (EVEN)
    (No change from MU chart ver 1.0)



    Two characters that operate on very different mechanics; regarded to be an even matchup.

    Characteristic of a ninja-based character, Sheik is very quick and a great deal of her moves are quick as well. Paired against King Dedede's slower moveset, she is a very troublesome opponent for him. Her F-Tilt lock is usually a great tool for damage racking, and here is no different. She is able to tack on damage on King Dedede very quickly, safely and efficiently. Her quick mobility also allows her to safely maneuver around a lot of King Dedede's attacks and can bait him into some awkward positions. Her Needles go a great job of racking on damage safely, and punishing King Dedede's landings as well as his recovery.

    And speaking of the recovery, Sheik is also good at taking advantage there. Her quick moves enable her to frame trap him and force reactions and awkward Super Dedede Jumps. Often times, Dedede will come back on the stage but not after acquiring some damage.

    Now on the flip side, King Dedede has a lot going for him in this matchup as well. His superior grab range, can outrange a lot of Sheik's tools in mid range and rack up the damage as well. F-Tilt when spaced is a great poking tool as well. In close range, Dedede can often surprise her with well timed Swallows for some quick damage. With the grab armor on it as well, Dedede does NOT mind taking a hit to get that free damage with a character as light as Sheik. The opportunities for hard punishes don't come along too often but frankly, he doesn't need to hit her that much. Unlike him, Sheik is incredibly light and dies very early to Up-Tilt and respectably early to fresh Back-air or Forward Air. The fact that he also SIGNIFICANTLY outlives her due to him weight and her lackluster killing power allows him to play catch-up efficiently. This is the main reason why Dedede is able to keep with up with limber ninja.

    And off stage, Sheik has to be very careful as well. Back-air can ruin her recovery if he catches her the right way. Sheik has to get creative and mix it up, if she wants to avoid being Back-air chained too far to Vanish or Chain back to the ledge. The weak hit of Back-air is actually more dangerous in this situation than the stronger hit. Dedede's Down Tilt should also be watched out for for Sheiks seeking to grab the ledge. The trajectory can put her in a very bad situation.

    So Sheik racks up the damage faster and safer while Dedede significantly outlives her and kills much earlier is most cases. Both characters can put a serious hurting on each other off stage as well making this a very close matchup all in all.[/collapse]

    [COLLAPSE="Diddy vs. Dedede (+2/-2) by Player-1"]King Dedede:

    As Diddy against King Dedede, you can just camp and then throw some pokes in until you get him in a good combo setup. Side-b is really good against a D3 that likes to sit in his shield, but be warned that D3 can spotdodge it and easily punish the kick part with a bair. The two biggest things going for D3 in this MU is his weight, allowing him to live for a long time, and edgeguarding Diddy. D3 is one of the heaviest characters in the game so Diddy probably won't be killing unless he's at the edge at around 140%-150% (if he has good DI). Diddy can also edgeguard him really well. A lot of D3s like to go for the edge with their midair jumps when recovering, so Diddy can just surround the edge of stage with bananas and grab the edge at the last second before D3 grabs. That way, they're forced to use their up-b, and if they land on stage, then'll be pressured with the bananas.

    I would argue that D3 is one of the best characters at edgeguarding Diddy, but only really when Diddy doesn't have a 2nd jump. If Diddy doesn't have a 2nd jump and he gets hit, then he'll either have to use his side-b (which is easy to get hit out of especially with D3), or he can use his up-b, BUT his up-b won't get the stalling ability it normally does, and will fall at a normal fall rate which is very easy to gimp.

    Diddy can die early to D3's utilt, but it's pretty easy to avoid along with bair, which are his 2 main killing moves. You don't want to be directly above D3's head as Diddy. If you stay away from that, you'll be fine.

    In this MU, I usually ban Castle Siege or Frigate as Diddy. I ban Castle Siege for the walk offs and Frigate for the difficulty in recovering. D3 also has a bad time recovering here as well, so it can go either way. I like CPing BF over FD. On FD he can CG you for a longer period of time and easily get you off stage, but BF I find it easier to camp on due to the platforms hurting D3's aerial approaches, bananas on platforms still mess up his CG, it's a small stage and very easy combo especially due to Diddy's ability to easily get him above him and the platforms.[/COLLAPSE]

    [COLLAPSE="Diddy vs Zero Suit Samus (+1/-1) by Player-1"]At the start of the match, I usually just rush ZSS down and try to gain control of an armor piece. Diddy has way better item control than Zero Suit Samus does, and can easily get control of them. Combined with the fact that Diddy can still get some bananas onto the field and barrage ZSS with items means that Diddy can gain an easy stock loss on ZSS if the ZSS is not careful. I personally think that ZSS is much stronger against Diddy by just throwing 2 armor pieces off the field and just sticking to one. If Diddy sits in his shield with a banana and just waits for them to hit, he can easily rack up a lot of damage.

    I feel ZSS's biggest tool in this MU is the fact that she is really good at juggling Diddy, and Diddy's poor drift speed doesn't help either. ZSS does have some tricks she can use with bananas if she does get control of them that can lead into some nasty combos. Also, Zero Suit Samus has an infinite on Diddy if no platforms get in our way. It's probably one of the easiest infinites to set up in the game too, BUT it's still difficult to set up if the Diddy is watching out for it. ZSS can do a footstool variation infinite that she can easily get with a dsmash. Unfortunately for her though, she can't do a dsmash while holding a banana, so in order for her to land the infinite, she has to have a banana near her while she gets the dsmash. Probably the most common setup for this is a glidetoss to dsmash since the banana will land right near her to get it. She has a long glidetoss so if she is faraway with a banana in your hand then be prepared for it.

    Alternately, ZSS is also in the group of characters that has the easiest infinite timing for Diddy in the game and since her moves are very unsafe on shield when Diddy has a banana in his hand then it easily lead into an infinite if they're not careful as well.

    I feel that ZSS has a very hard time killing Diddy if Diddy just sits in his shield. Her kill moves are pretty much just bair, uair, side-b, and dsmash sets up into all of those, which are all very unsafe on shield if Diddy has a banana in his hand.

    Diddy can gimp ZSS a bit better than she can gimp Diddy, but both characters can get back to the stage fairly well against each other. Diddy can mess with her while she tries to tether recover with items and the such, but if she's careful then it won't matter too much. Her down-b can footstool items too to help recover. Against Diddy, she can dsmash us out of a poorly spaced side-b to the edge as well as drop of the edge and up-b back to get her invincibility frames back fast.

    I like to ban Brinstar as Diddy in this MU. If they know the infinite and you don't want to take any chances then FD wouldn't be bad to ban either. I'll counterpick FD (if they don't know the infinite), SV, or BF against Zero Suit Samus.[/COLLAPSE]

    [collapse=Diddy vs. Game and Watch (+2/-2) by Player-1]GaW can't approach Diddy if he sits in his shield with a banana at all. All of his moves are super unsafe on shield and he has no way to force us to approach. GaW’s Sausage/bacon is a projectile, but it's so laggy that Diddy can easily punish it with a banana. GaW also has the longest trip animation in the game tied with Jigglypuff (by 2 frames), making it easy to combo him. However, he can use a normal get up into an up-B (has invincibility frames) for a quick get out so it requires the Diddy to be on his game to get a good string off.

    Although GaW is one of the lightest characters in the game, his bucket breaking REALLY helps in this MU since he can live very long due to Diddy's poor killing power and predictable kill moves that will give them time to DI (Diddy gets a banana trip on GaW at 120%, fsmash/dsmash WILL be coming so GaW should be DIing already) while GaW can kill Diddy at around 80% with one of his strong kill moves if he gets a good read on us. GaW also can mess with Diddy’s recovery below the stage with Nair/up-B that can gimp Diddy, but it's not the most reliable technique in the world. GaW’s Sausage/bacon can also hit Diddy out of his up-B really well and does a good job covering it.

    I usually ban Brinstar, but Rainbow Cruise and Frigate wouldn't be bad bans either, and pretty much any starter against him like FD/BF/SV would be good too.
    [/collapse]

    [collapse="Diddy vs. Toon Link (0/0) by Player-1"]The Toon Link vs. Diddy is a very even MU. This MU is also probably one of the slowest out there. TL plays a very campy playstyle, and while Diddy can play both aggressive and defensive. Not only that, but neither character can kill each other very well. TL's kill moves are predictable and easy to dodge while Diddy can kill TL fairly easily if he gets the setup (banana trip to smash). TL is always in the air and hard to hit though.

    TL definitely outcamps Diddy, no doubt, but that's not to say that Diddy can't camp TL a bit. Diddy actually doesn't do that bad of a job camping TL, but he has to be really careful. Full hop popguns over TL's projectiles work pretty well, but TL's projectiles are a lot faster than Diddy's meaning they'll catch up in time so Diddy has to stay down and shield a bit of them until he has an opening to get back in. The fact here is that Diddy's camping has a lot more room for error than TLs.

    When Diddy does approach in this MU, he has to be really good with his shielding (powershielding preferably). Considering all of the projectiles hitting his shield, boomerangs going back and forth, etc., Diddy will have to know when it's a good time to attack OoS. If Diddy can get in TL's CQC zone then he can wreck him, although he has some tools to get out. He can't grab OoS reliably with his tether grab, but he can Nair/Bair OoS well and also Usmash.

    The best chance to get close to TL as Diddy is when he uses his second jump, because his landing gets really predictable. He can't really do much if Diddy comes up from under him except air dodge, but he can cover his landings well with a bomb dodge drop. If you can learn how to get around that then you can approach TL more effectively. If he is landing next to you then he'll probably air dodge > Zair or use an aerial.

    Both characters have some good gimping tools on each other. If Diddy hits TL out of his up-b then he'll lose a lot of momentum with it and can get edgehogged easily. This is usually done best with bananas. TL's Bair is pretty good at hitting Diddy out of his side-B and he also has his regrab to the edge with his tether grab if he needs to regain his invincibility frames quickly.

    As for stages, I personally like stages with a lack of platforms to make it easier to punish them on landing, so FD/SV/PS1 would be comfortable picks for Diddy in my opinion. I'm kind of unsure on Castle Siege for Diddy because the 2nd transformation can block his projectiles and has higher ceilings which is his primary kill area, but the layout of the stage helps his camping a lot. I usually ban Brinstar in this MU because the terrain makes it really easy to get hit by bombs. When the lava rises, it puts Diddy in the air where he doesn't want to be against TL.
    [/collapse]

    [collapse=Ike vs Falco (-1/+1) by Ussi]When it comes to boxing, Falco and Ike are pretty even at it, but Ike gets more damage out of it with jab cancels. However, Falco's chaingrab kinda makes this a moot point - if Falco manages to grab Ike, then he's stuck playing catch-up in damage. Falco has a tough time killing Ike because of the latter's weight, which gives Ike the time to build back damage while surviving. Falco dies at a lower % and, with good prediction and timing, his Phantasm recovery can also be punished, with the possibility of even jabbing Falco out of the later end of it. Ike can also punish Falco's recovery mixup of landing on a platform with Phantasm due to the range of Ike's attacks.

    Falco has the advantage from forcing Ike to approach, and with Ike being the punishable character that he is, Falco exploits this well and can keep Ike's game at bay. However, his light weight and relatively weak KO options give Ike a chance at keeping up in the match-up.
    [/collapse]

    [collapse=Kirby vs Meta Knight (-2/+2) by Kewkky]
    While Meta Knight’s moveset outmatches Kirby’s in a lot of ways, that doesn’t mean the pink puffball doesn’t stand any chance at all. Though the match-up has to be played with much precision on Kirby’s part, it’s also true that Kirby has it better than many other characters. The first stock often involves the lead shifting back and forth until a stock is taken. Oftentimes when Kirby takes the first stock, Meta Knight has no problem revenge-killing Kirby while taking minimum damage, which effectively sets the match back to even. Unfortunately, when Meta Knight takes the first stock, due to his better spacing options (both ground-spacing and diagonal-aerial spacing [a.k.a. Air Camping]), Kirby has a harder time returning the favor against Meta Knight to even out the match again, and will find himself taking noticeable damage before Meta Knight's stock is gone. In addition to Meta Knight's superior spacing options, this is largely due to how vulnerable Kirby is left after each attempt at taking a stock from his opponent.

    Kirby’s main game consists of baiting Meta Knight to react in specific ways, then punishing accordingly. This could, for example, involve making Meta Knight commit to a tilt while Kirby feints approaches, then later tricking him into using either of them preemptively while Kirby runs in and shields his attack successfully for a free grab, or baiting an ftilt and then hitting him with a well-spaced ftilt (Kirby's best grounded spacer, it reaches farther than most people think), or tripping him with a well-spaced dtilt and then tech-chasing his wake-up decision… Kirby can also get similar results through his aerials - just short-hopping near the ground in front of Meta Knight will encourage an ftilt, which means a free bair when he slows down/is done, or possibly an empty landing into a grab as well if Kirby is flying close enough… Kirby doesn't have the ability to simply rush the opponent down like Meta Knight does, so he has to find ways to bait Meta Knight into reacting certain ways and retaliating with an appropriate punishment. On that note, a very popular option many Kirby players use is forcing Meta Knight into attacking with any grounded move, then rolling behind Meta Knight and pivoting a utilt (which is able to hit as early as frame 4). At lower percents, Kirby can chain this into a utilt-utilt-bair combo. Spacing the bair well at higher-than-lowest %s prevents Meta Knight from having any answer against that chain of attacks, making it effectively a safe and powerful way of beginning stocks against opponents.

    Kirby has 3 ways of reliably killing Meta Knight in this match-up, all very different:
    -Going through Meta Knight’s tornado attempts or shielding his misspaced attacks and punishing with an fsmash. It’s no secret that Kirby's fresh up-angled fsmash has deceiving range, and with the added bonus of strength, a Meta Knight hit with it at 120%+ shouldn’t be living (unless the stage has a high ceiling, allowing the opponent more room to DI).

    -Outspacing Meta Knight in the air, or simply catching him off-guard near the ground with well-spaced bairs. Kirby's bair might get stale, but what people sometimes fail to notice is that grabs are a very large part of Kirby's game. The pink puffball was blessed with a great pummel, as even though Kirby only deals 1% each pummel, they refresh his moves even if you mash them down, as long as Meta Knight receives damage from the pummels. Add the throw into the equation, and his bair is almost as good as new after just two grabs! All that’s left is landing a bair and the stock is gone at 140%+.

    -Fresh uthrows. I remember to thank Sakurai each time I play this match-up on Battlefield and other platformed stages, because he was kind enough to give Kirby a killing throw. A fresh uthrow on Battlefield's ground should take Meta Knight's stock at around 160% with proper DI, but on a platform, it can be as low as 130%, and even lower the higher the platforms are. This works exceptionally well on stages with platforms that are very high up, like the infamous Rainbow Cruise uthrow kills, where you can take your opponent’s stock at as low as 0% with a well-aimed uthrow.

    Kirby should never try to inhale Meta Knight, since he can outrange Kirby's inhale without even trying. But if somehow, during the course of a match, Kirby does manages to inhale Meta Knight, he gains an alternate recovery option. It’s no secret that Meta Knight is THE best offstage fighter in the game, so even Kirby will have problems recovering against a Meta Knight who knows what he’s doing, but with the Mach Tornado ability, Kirby acquires a very fast horizontal recovery option which can be used to speed past Meta Knight's relatively slow horizontal aerial movement.


    All in all, this MU is a definite disadvantage.

    *One thing I should make clear is that Kirby has no safe way of getting MK to leave the ledge if he starts planking with a lead. That is all.[/collapse]

    [collapse=Kirby vs Snake (-1/+1) by Kewkky]Snake is a difficult character to gain the upper hand against, and even moreso to maintain the advantage. He hits hard, he tanks hits like nobody’s business, he has fierce stage control, lots of sneaky tricks, and stage advantages. His recovery is average, but it can be done more than once, and with his C4, it makes gimping him far offstage impossible, and only near-stage gimps are possible (excluding Kirbicides, which work everywhere). His grenades are strong, have quite the large hitboxes, can kill, and refresh his moves, ensuring that his moves are as close to fresh as possible when he needs them, which of course, means less survivability for Kirby. I guess Sakurai was close friends with Hideo Kojima, because he decided to bless Snake with the craziest grounded moveset in the game in terms of speed/range/damage; he isn’t what you would call a “balanced top tier character” in terms of his ground game… luckily, even though he is a tough opponent, Kirby still has a chance, and it’s because the tools he has work so well against heavy characters, especially on characters with linear recoveries and who are vulnerable to juggling!

    In this MU, the only way to properly describe what Kirby does is with a redundant comment: “Kirby plays the same way, but different”. What I mean by this is that everything the Kirby player usually does in a matchup he knows by heart, he will do here too, but with some unnoticeable key differences . What differences? Well, let me list them for you!

    -Once you’re stringing, don’t stop. Normally as Kirby, you would start your string and you would complete it, then retreat to avoid damage. While it still applies here and you should always be careful, if you’ve got a string going, don’t stop it, and instead continue the string with baits and pressure. If before you would’ve ended in a retreating bair, now you don’t retreat it, but instead you follow Snake and force him to try and “punish” your “mistake”. While Snake’s in the air during a string, he’s only safe if Kirby’s on his backside, since no front-side aerial will knock Kirby away from him and he will always lag upon landing, his only true saving graces would be either upB’ing away and mindgaming a wavebounced grenade to escape a continued juggle, or buffering a grenade pull and hoping that one of Kirby’s attacks hits it while he drops it from the shock of Kirby’s attack. You’ll get damaged from the grenade, of course, but add in all the hits you just inflicted on Snake (string = +damage), plus your last hit that also detonated the grenade (last hit = +damage, grenade explosion = +damage), and you’ll find that Snake just got racked up past 60% in a single go, and now it’s just a matter of baiting and punishing!

    -Don’t shorthop your bairs, his ftilt beats it. Instead, either full hop your bairs so that he stales his utilt instead (chances are it will miss if you spaced properly, believe it or not), or space with ftilts and dtilts. Our ftilt being our grounded spacer with most range, it challenges even Snake's ftilt range and punishes him for allowing you to get too close, and it has more range than his grab as well so if he’s a grab-happy grenade-dropping Snake you’ll find that ftilts do the trick perfectly. Dtilts trip Snake, and since he has a high traction, he won’t get knocked back as far, allowing us to chain dtilts until he trips, then run in for a shieldgrab chase, which sets up stringing and juggling scenarios. While we usually shorthop bairs in other MUs, his ftilt packs devastating damage and range which unluckily outranges our bair. It’s wiser to look for smarter alternatives than simply taking the hit and trying a second time, and in this case it would be switching out shorthops for fullhops.

    -When dealing with grenades, either jump over them, or simply ignore them and get pelted. During my own matches versus other Snakes, I’ve noticed that if you simply ignore the uncooked grenades Snake throws at you and take the pelt damage, they are barely any nuisance at all and it forces the opponent into reacting out of fear of taking damage/losing the lead, and Snake’s reaction would be an ftilt, spot-dodge, or a pivot grab. What I usually do against Snakes when they throw grenades is dash-attack and eat their spotdodges if they show the habit, or stop in a shield and immediately ftilt them from a safe distance, or keep running and attempt a shieldgrab. It’s not a rock-paper-scissors scenario - the options correspond to what the opponent does during the course of a match, and how long he takes reacting to your approaching options… And grenades on the floor? Simply float over them until they explode, then land.

    -Juggle, juggle, JUGGLE! There is nothing sweeter in this MU than spacing your uairs well on a Snake that’s trying to touch ground, especially on stages without platforms where he is forced to land on the stage’s low floor. Kirby’s uair is disjointed so Snake will have lots of trouble beating it from above/in front, and while you juggle him your other moves refresh, ensuring that your bair is fresh or near-fresh for the kill. If you’re juggling Snake and realize you’re on his backside, stop and move away. His bair has more range and is far stronger than your bair, stays out longer, and has some curious property to it (I went through a Snake’s legs while he baired with Kirby’s downB, and Snake didn’t get hit, and instead it clanked with Kirby’s stone and stayed out). Only juggle from below or in front of him!

    Aside from those points, Kirby should play the MU like he usually does: start the stock with a grab or utilt if the possibility presents itself (or link an aerial/tilt to a grab), knock the opponent offstage and/or into the air on-stage, pressure the opponent off-stage, juggle, attempt a kirbicide if possible, and end the stock with a fresh move.

    How to take a stock, though? Snake has range, strength, survivability, and speed - he’s a walking death machine for characters with no projectiles. Well, Kirby's kill moves will be bair, fsmash, dsmash, uair, and uthrow.

    -Bair: Remember to refresh your moves with pummels whenever you grab Snake. Pelt him with hits from aerials/pummels/throws/tilts, and on later %s you’ll find your bair is still near-fresh and ready to kill with. Snake generally dies from a fresh bair at 160%+.

    -Fsmash: The only way fsmash will kill in this MU is by frame-trapping Snake’s landing, or clashing against his bair when he’s near killing %. Snake is heavy, so he dies from a fresh up-angled fsmash at around ~140%+.

    -Dsmash: Sometimes it’s hard properly tracing Snake’s landing patterns due to his wavebouncing and you’ll find that landing fsmashes is harder than it first looked in this MU. When this happens, you can follow Snake’s landing pattern (while staying away from his backside) and hit him with a dsmash, which hits in front and behind of Kirby, and amazingly, above Kirby as well. Since dsmash has the same attribute as his fsmash in that it stays out for a while, you have a decent window for error and can certainly frametrap a landing Snake. If the ceiling is low, this should be a smart way of taking his stocks. Snake should be dying from a dsmash at about 160%+ off the top, and the lower the ceilings of the stages are, the faster he dies, naturally.

    -Uair. This move will probably be stale, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t follow a recovering Snake high up above the stage and take his damaged stock with another uair AS LONG AS YOU’RE NOT ON HIS BACKSIDE. You’d be surprised how often this works after a failed KO attempt.

    -Uthrow. Not the best way to kill, but sometimes you’ll find yourself dealing major damage to Snake and not able to land a killing blow, all while landing more grabs than smashes. You shouldn’t use uthrow during a match unless you had a situational tactic in mind (omnigay, windmill-spiking, ninja spiking, throwing them into a hazard, using Kirby’s rising invincibility frames to avoid damage from a mortar…), or Snake is ready for an uthrow kill. On Battlefield’s floor a uthrow generally kills Snake at above 210%+, and on a platform at 190%+.

    Snake is a slightly disadvantaged MU for Kirby. It’s not one of his worse MUs, nor even close to his worst MU, especially when you get used to changing up your tactics to deal with heavy-hitting tanks.

    Oh, and remember to powershield his tilts, and chain utilts into bairs![/collapse]

    [collapse=Sheik vs Olimar (-1/+1) by 愛sight]Match-Up: :sheik: / :olimar:
    Rating: -1 / +1
    v1.0 Rating: 0 / 0
    Summary:
    The Sheik vs Olimar match-up has always been subject to debate. Even publicly, many people argued that either one or the other had a strong advantage.

    Sheik's greatest strengths here are her excellent ground mobility that allow her to punish unsafe attempts from Olimar at using attacks or Pikmin Toss, with a dash attack that can cover deceptively long ranges; and her edgeguarding options that can put Olimar in a tough spot when caught. Olimar's weight class affords Sheik some ftilt-based combos, though not a full lock, and he is somewhat vulnerable to aerial juggles from Sheik's upward launching throws.

    On the other hand, Sheik herself is in a small bind when sent into the air above Olimar. Fortunately, Olimar is not as resourceful in having attacks that launch her into strongly disadvantaged positions. Sheik's normally effective needle game to discourage camping is also not nearly as powerful since even a single Pikmin can absorb a full salvo of needles. Also, Sheik lacks the horizontal air-speed to really mix up her approach between ground and air sufficiently, as a lot of aerial approaches can be pivot grabbed on reaction. Sheik's recovery options when forced to return to the stage rather than the ledge are relatively punishable, and her light weight with Olimar's attack power make straight-up KOs very efficient for Olimar.

    When either character is stuck at the ledge, both are at risk of eating a lot of punishment before finally restabilizing at center stage. Sheik is known to have absolutely no truly safe options to return from the ledge, instead having to rely on finding an unexpected angle or playing on late reactions. Olimar, meanwhile, lacks sufficiently ranged options to easily get by Sheik simply covering the area in front of the ledge with her chain, of which its damage will not decay until the chain is retracted.

    Overall, the match-up cannot be taken lightly from either side, though Olimar's simple KO efficiency without having to rely on edge-guarding or risky mixups grants him a very slight edge.[/collapse]

    [collapse=Wolf vs Pikachu (-3/+3) by Ishieymoro]:pikachu2: vs :wolf:

    No Change from v1

    This matchup was heavily discussed with strong points from each side, but in the end we decided to keep the matchup as-is despite a slight majority preferring a +/-2 primarily due to the lack of high-level play showing the theory behind the matchup.

    Some key aspects of the matchup:
    • Pikachu has a chain-grab on Wolf (cannot be started fresh above approximately 60%) that ends with a down-throw into a guaranteed buffered dash > jump > footstool > quick-attack lock for the kill. This hasn’t been shown in any recorded videos of the matchup, but it is certainly within the realm of human possibility and is something to be feared at high-level play of the matchup. The effect of starting the chain-grab at different percents (to see whether or not constant down-throws are guaranteed due to Wolf’s odd chain-grab physics) was not investigated.
    • Pikachu’s chain-grab does not work on Smashville’s moving platform and he cannot pull off the lock on downward slopes, such as on Yoshi’s Island. Pikachu can also do the down-throw chain-grab when facing left on the side-scrolling part of Rainbow Cruise as well as on a carpet, but not when facing right on the side-scrolling part and on flat ground when moving vertically. Tilts, such as the platform on Yoshi’s Island and Lylat, do not affect the actual chain-grab, but only the lock.
    • Wolf’s back air is extremely safe. When well-spaced it cannot be shield-grabbed or otherwise punished by Pikachu.
    • Wolf can jump after reflecting something with down-B, which leaves him far less vulnerable when trying to out-camp Pikachu.
    • Without a doubt, it’s the chain-grab that makes this matchup as severe as it is. That being said, it is in Wolf’s best interest to remain out of Pikachu’s grab range (retreating aerials and/or platform camping) until he breaks the ~60% barrier.

    The Wolf panel believes that Pikachu is unable to truly pressure Wolf into a grab, unlike King Dedede, Wolf’s other -3 matchup. The Pikachu panel disagreed, using their points from the two bullets below. In essence, the usefulness of (platform) camping to avoid getting pressured into a grab was the main argument from the Wolf panel to lessen the severity of the matchup, but the two panels could not reach a consensus on the effectiveness of such tactics at a high level.

    These tactics are:
    • Platform camping. Pikachu has very strong options to pressure opponents on platforms, but Wolf also has strong defensive options out-of-shield when on a platform. Frame data shows that given Pikachu is in range after attacking Wolf’s shield, he can be punished with a forward-air, back-air, or up-smash out-of-shield, as well as a shield-grab or shield drop > jab, provided Pikachu is in range. However, it was argued that Pikachu is capable of spacing his aerials well enough to avoid retaliation and that Pikachu is also able to shield-poke into a potential combo into the chain-grab. Due to a lack of either side having the proper experience at high level or the means to convincingly back it up, we were left at a stalemate.
    • Getting the percent lead. It was argued that jumping out of down-B effectively keeps Wolf safe from taking any damage without Pikachu approaching, although he will likely not be dealing any damage in return. This is something that, while possibly very useful for removing the need for Wolf to make a risky approach, does not have any backing in high-level play and is currently nothing more than anecdotal evidence from mid-level play.
    [/collapse]

    [collapse=Wolf vs Dedede (-3/+3) by Ishieymoro]
    Previously: +2/-2

    Reasoning:

    King Dedede is agreed to be Wolf’s worst matchup by virtually all Wolf mains. He has a theoretical 0-to-death with the smallstep down-throw chain-grab > ledge infinite > down-tilt, and even without all of that he can force Wolf onto the ledge with the regular down-throw chain-grab and trap him there extremely well. Once on the ledge, Wolf is hard-pressed to get back onto the stage without getting regrabbed or hit by a back-air/up-tilt from a patient Dedede. This in essence means that one mistake from Wolf can result in a ton of damage and getting stuck in a very disadvantageous position. Not to mention that aside from this horribly skewed risk/reward ratio, King Dedede outlives Wolf significantly. While the matchup isn’t quite unwinnable, the concept of a high-level Wolf beating a high-level Dedede in tournament is basically unheard of, and as such we felt it was fair to upgrade this to a +/-3, especially when consider that Wolf has other -3 matchups in this version of the matchup chart.

    Something that differentiates Dedede from Wolf’s other bad chain-grab matchups in the eyes of most Wolf mains is his ability to pressure Wolf into the grab. Because of his huge grab range, spacing aerials on Dedede’s shield requires the utmost precision to avoid punishment. This essentially allows Dedede to slowly approach Wolf from the ground and eventually corner Wolf with his strong defensive options, at which point Wolf is forced to make a risky crossover. Dedede’s back-air is also good at stuffing many of Wolf’s approaches and can lead into a grab at low percents, and combined with his up-tilt and forward-air makes it relatively easy for Dedede to beat out Wolf’s platform camping.

    Recommended Videos:

    Almost any set of Coney (:dedede:) versus Seagull (:wolf:) (MD) [search them on YouTube, there are a ton of videos]
    Tonie :dedede: versus Semifer :wolf: (EU)
    Michael Hey :dedede: versus Choice :wolf: (NorCal)[/collapse]
    -

    BATCH 2 (posted on 2/11/2012)

    [collapse=Bowser vs Luigi (-1/+1) by MrEh] Luigi is a pretty scary dude. He can easily combo Bowser at various percents due to Bowser's size, he has a couple high knockback moves that that can even worry the biggest of heavyweights, and he has a projectile. God, Bowser hates projectiles.

    Luigi's fast high priority aerials will simply beat out Bowser in the air, so Bowser cannot rely on his standard Klaw tricks to help him approach. Not to mention that Fireballs put up a wall that Bowser cannot fight through if he's in the air. However, that just means that Bowser has to approach carefully from the ground. If Bowser approaches from the ground, this matchup becomes significantly easier. Unspaced aerials by Luigi will always be stopped by Fortess OoS, and Bowser's up angled Ftilt is always good at stopping aerials that are spaced. Luigi's poor air mobility makes it harder for him to save himself if he over-commits to his approach, so Bowser's anti-air options work quite well in this matchup. Once Bowser gets a hit in, he can start his offense and play a little more aggressively.

    Luigi still has the upper hand in this matchup due to his extremely high damage output, easy kill setups and forcing Bowser to approach moreso than the other way around. However, Bowser's good defensive options are enough to keep this matchup from being highly in Luigi's favor.[/collapse]


    [collapse=Ike vs Olimar (-2/+2) by theeboredone]Olimar MU:

    An extremely difficult MU for Ike. Arguably his second toughest match up just right behind Meta Knight. What makes this match up difficult is Olimar's ability to out-space any of Ike's approaches with Pivot Grab. Even with Ike's quick approach of N-air to jab, all Olimar has to do is run away and pivot grab. With that being said, Olimar will dominate this match up on flatter stages where Olimar has plenty of space to run away. Stages with lower ceilings also help him a great deal as Olimar's main killing move lies in up-smash.

    Ike is probably one of the better characters of eliminating any Pikmin that Olimar throws at him, utilizing N-air generally that encircles his entire body. However, this means very little for Ike if Olimar can stay away from Ike all the time anyway. Olimar can also utlize his whistle super armor if Ike manages to get him off-stage, to absorb damage while safely recovering. Given how quickly it works, and the ability to mix whistle with n-air, Ike will have trouble consistently killing him through edge-guards or juggles. Olimar's start up grab combo can rack up about 50% on Ike, and from there, needs about another 70-80 to kill Ike with a purple pikmin.

    Ike only has an advantage in two forms. One is platform stages such as Battlefield or Yoshi's Island. Ike can apply pressure from below when Olimar is standing on platforms. Also, if there is any way for Ike to navigate through the throwing Pikmin and pivot grab, it's platforms. This way, Ike can get in close without being pressured or walled as effectively. Once in, Ike can jab Olimar and depending on SDI, cancel it into up-tilt for a KO or complete the jab combo to knock him off-stage. Back throw to dash attack also gets Olimar off-stage. Ike's only chance to rack up serious damage is to keep Olimar off the ground, so timing and reading the whistles so Ike can grab or punish and knock him off-stage again is pivotal to the match up. Charging Up-smash when Olimar is coming back on stage (and whistling) can be used as bait to read through the whistle and go for a potential kill. However, there are not many stages where Ike can use the landscape itself to get in close.

    Overall, Olimar dominates in almost every aspect of the game minus off-stage pressure, but that is not enough to overcome the severe deficiencies Ike faces in the MU.

    +2 for Olimar

    Recommended Stages for Ike: BF and YI
    Recommended Stages for Olimar: FD, Halberd, Delfino, Brinstar.[/collapse]


    [collapse=Ike vs Pikachu (-1/+1) by theeboredone]The thing that gives Pikachu the advantage in this match up is his ability to hit Ike and possibly gimp him off stage. Ike's recovery is rather predictable, and Pikachu can easily bait Ike into Aether/Quick Draw, resulting in a projectile attack, Quick Attack to the ledge, n-air, Thunder, etc. Meanwhile, the game on stage is relatively even as Ike's f-air and n-air generally prevent Pikachu from getting inside. Both characters' moves are punishable. Pika can be punished if failing to connect with an up-smash, d-smash or f-smash, though Ike's kill moves in this MU have enough cool down time to be punished as well. Pikachu also has a mini CG to start off this match.

    Overall, Pika has a slight advantage due to his off stage shenanigans and, if Ike does not get gimped from it, he can still take a lot of damage before getting back on stage.[/collapse]



    [collapse=Ike vs King Dedede (-2/+2) by theeboredone]The match up shows ability from both sides to rack up damage through different means. Ike gets his damage from applying pressure, while Dedede is looking for that chance to chaingrab Ike. Dedede can "camp" so to speak by throwing his minions. Ike should not let them wander around too long as they can get in the way at times, especially the Waddle Doos, which can stun Ike with their beams and inflict a good chunk of damage. Aside from this, the match up is based on who will make a mistake first, with Dedede having more room for error. For starters, Dedede has one of the longest grab reaches in the game, and can utilize that against Ike in many situations. Such situations include...

    -Ike jab canceling...Dedede can absorb a normal jab and immediately grab. He can also grab after jab 2.
    -Improper spacing if Ike does not use f-air or n-air right.

    Once Dedede gets Ike in his CG, the first option to finish the CG would be to use D-throw so Ike goes below the edge. This can open up the door to possibly gimp him. One example would be to fall off and b-air Ike before he can receive the Super Armor frames from his aether. While Ike can technically survive this by teching against the edge, this requires far more skill than what Dedede has to do in this sequence - a high risk, high reward move for Dedede.

    On stage, Dedede should be focusing on keeping away if Ike gets close. The use of shield to tempt Ike to get closer is a good tool to get a chance for a grab. If airborne, the use of b-air is quick and easy to keep Ike away from punishing more. On the other hand, if Ike can read the grab via spot dodge, or simply use some trickery to get in, Ike opens up a can of worms to unleash plenty of damage. Dedede is easy to jab cancel, and Ike can easily inflict about 30 damage alone from that. Once airborne, Ike can pressure with f-air, u-air, and most importantly Aether for an impressive 20 damage. While risky on stage, it is good to consider if Dedede is recovering back on stage. This move can spike Dedede back down, forcing him into much more limited recovery options, which can lead to him being punished even more...even possibly being d-air'ed if Ike is hanging on the edge.

    Ike can play safe by using retreating n-airs and b-airs, but either side will eventually have to get inside the other's bubble. This is more difficult for Ike than it is for Dedede, and that plus his ability to kill Ike earlier (up-tilt and off stage gimps) gives him the edge.

    (-2/+2)

    Recommended Stages for Ike: BF, YI, Brinstar
    Recommended Stages for Dedede: FD, SV, Halberd.[/collapse]


    [collapse=Ike vs Kirby (-1/+1) by theeboredone]Kirby is a threat to start this MU due to his grab combo that can easily result in about 40-50 damage to Ike. Kirby also has the ability to b-air camp, which takes impeccable timing from Ike to successfully hit Kirby out of. On top of that, Kirby can really hurt Ike off stage. Kirby's b-air will always hit Ike if he tries to Quick Draw back on stage. Kirby can also "rock" Ike's Aether, and of course, there's the potential inhale, walk off to footstool kill.

    With that being said, what makes this only a slight advantage for Kirby is that Ike has a slight advantage onstage. Spacing n-air and f-air can prove hard for Kirby to get inside, and get a kill move in (f-smash). It is true that Kirby can duck under Ike's jab, and he can also SDI out of any jab cancels rather easily, but Ike can still get in a true jab combo nevertheless. Also, Ike has a few more kill moves at his disposal, and while his off-stage game vs Kirby isn't as good the other way around, Ike can still pose a threat to Kirby if he is recovering low with a walk off f-air, d-air, or even grabbing the edge to make Kirby final cutter onto stage, and then proceeding to up-air him.[/collapse]


    [collapse=Ike vs Luigi (+2/-2) by theeboredone]What makes this such a difficult match up for Luigi is that aside from perfect shielding, Luigi will always get pushed back when shielding an attack. Aside from his Luigi Cyclone, Luigi does not have any true moves to help him get inside Ike's spacing. Ike's f-air and n-air both out range any of Luigi's attacks in the air or on the ground. On top of that, if Luigi does not perfect shield, then he is pushed back, practically ensuring that Ike does not have to necessarily space perfectly to stay safe.

    Luigi's kill moves are difficult to get off on Ike due to the spacing issue. His jab to up+b and F-smash both require Luigi to be close, and as long as Ike plays safe, it's not gonna happen.

    Finally, Ike possesses the ability to hinder each Luigi's off stage recovery. Ike can drop down and counter Luigi's missile or simply walk off f-air/spike him as well.

    If there is anything Luigi has going for him in this match, it's that once he does get inside, Ike is easy combo material. Damage can rack up rather quickly, but that also becomes more difficult when Ike is already at a higher damage rate.[/collapse]


    [collapse=Ike vs Bowser (0/0) by theeboredone]A match up that surprisingly asks for patience from Ike despite Bowser lacking in any sort of strong camping game. To expand on this, the only true attack that Ike has that can safely reach Bowser is his f-air. Not to ever be used in an approaching manner, Ike can generally hit the tip of Bowser when he decides to attack and out-reach him with f-air. However, the downside to this is that...while effective at first, playing this way will make the move become really stale.

    There is a high risk, high reward exchange for getting close to Bowser. Bowser mains will tend to do either OoS fortress (Up+B) the moment they are attacked in close range. Fortress gives them invincible frames on start up, rendering it useless for Ike to immediately go into jab. This move can also be used as a defensive mechanism as Bowser can retreat and practically reset the position. Bowser's second approach when Ike is close is to Klaw. Klaw can damage Ike heavily (about 19%), and leave Ike in the air, possibly defenseless to more attacks. A fresh Klaw can also be used as a killing move once Ike reaches about 140%.

    The reward, though, is that if Ike is able to make the appropriate read (spot dodge Klaw or shield fortress), then Ike can jab Bowser endlessly. Depending on SDI, Ike can link up-tilt or b-air after the jab canceling. Ike can also follow up with a full jab combo that can equate about to 30 damage. The match up is big on momentum, and if Ike can get Bowser airborne, then Bowser's only quick option is to surprise Ike with a Klaw (which can be avoided with proper spacing or reads), while Ike may continue to punish with aerials and jabs.

    Off stage, Ike shines more than Bowser. Bowser can utilize his fire breath near the edge of the stage when Ike is trying to Aether. While this will not rack up an insane amount of damage, this can disrupt Ike's recovery and open up to other options if Ike decides to land on stage and does not connect against Bowser. Another option is for Bowser to Bowser Bomb Ike's recovery. This can even be a kill move if Ike has enough damage on him. On the other hand, Bowser's recovery opens him up to walk off f-air first and foremost. Because of the deceptive range, Bowsers will tend to expect it as much. However, with that being said, options such as walk off d-air or foot stools are rarely viable due to their hitboxes and how close you have to be to Bowser. Another plausible way to punish Bowser's recovery is to grab the edge, and force him to Fortress over and onto the stage. Depending on how high he is, Ike can Aether spike him for a free kill. If Bowser is too high, Ike can jump off the edge and b-air/up-air him.

    As far as killing goes, Bowser will most likely kill Ike with Klaw, d-tilt, or f-smash. F-smash's potential wind back to avoid Ike's f-air can lead to Ike getting hit if he gets careless with an approaching f-air. While Ike has the capability to gimp Bowser, Bowser makes up for it by being able to withstand more punishment than Ike. It is also harder in this match-up for Ike to land his regular kill moves on-stage such as up-smash and b-air.

    Overall, this match-up is very heavy on momentum. Whoever can control the ground game will most likely win the stock/match. Both characters struggle against one another when forced airborne above the opponent. While Bowser deals more damage in single blows, Ike can definitely rack up just as much if he can get in close. While Ike has a slight advantage off stage, it does nothing momentous to alter the match up in anyone's favor.

    0/0

    Recommended stages for Ike: Delfino, FD, BF, RC

    Recommended stages for Bowser: Lylat, SV, YI, Halberd, Brinstar, BF.

    Note: Ike is at his best on platform stages, but Bowser can be effective as well. Arguably, whoever is better with platforms will win on BF.[/collapse]


    [collapse=King Dedede vs R.O.B. (+2/-2) by MetalMusicMan]Although R.O.B. does a good job of irritating Dedede, the overall theme of this matchup is that Dedede's weight allows him to take just about anything R.O.B. can throw at him. The King's excellent survivability and recovery accentuate one of R.O.B.'s greatest weaknesses; a lack of kill power.

    R.O.B. can abuse Dedede's large size and slow speed, giving him a decent chance at succeeding in the matchup as he is able to more easily keep Dedede at bay than smaller, faster characters. Despite this, the matchup is undoubtedly uphill for the robot as the penguin's sheer weight and survivability generally trump the negatives brought on by his susceptibility to projectiles.

    Additionally, R.O.B.'s predictable recovery is easily exploited by Dedede's ledge guarding and offstage game. Dedede will weather the storm of R.O.B.'s projectiles and eventually make it through. When he does, R.O.B. will be chaingrabbed to the edge and ledge guarded. This can quickly and easily make up for (or surpass) the damage that Dedede is forced to take while trying to catch R.O.B. This exchange can also put Dedede in a good position to go for a kill move, a luxury that R.O.B. rarely has since his most effective strategy is attempting to stay away from Dedede at all times.

    In the end, R.O.B.'s ability to irritate is overshadowed by the relentlessness allowed by Dedede's weight.[/collapse]


    [collapse=King Dedede vs Zelda (+2/-2) by MetalMusicMan & Darkmusician]Zelda's main issue is that Dedede can dictate the pace of the match from start to finish.

    Jumping at Zelda works fairly well, but if the Zelda is smart you'll eventually get hurt for it. Dedede's most effective strategy lies in abusing his grounded tools and waiting for Zelda to come to him. Her poor approach options force her to guess and Dedede can punish her moves on whiff or on startup.

    Even Zelda's long roll isn't a sure escape; if she's grabbed at the ledge she’s put in a very bad position and will have to deal with Dedede's edge guarding. She'll have to recover and once she uses her second jump it's very likely that she will lose her stock.

    Zelda can rack up a lot of damage on Dedede at low percent but has to be smart with saving the right kill moves to make the early damage worthwhile. Dedede, on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about decay and his standard kill moves will usually kill regardless of staling. If the Dedede wants to, he can save up tilt and kill around 100 or less but that isn't a necessity.

    Knowing the matchup both ways has a lot to do with how people perceive this matchup, but once the Dedede figures it out he has a fairly easy time.[/collapse]


    [collapse=Kirby vs Diddy (0) by Kewkky]Diddy is an interesting character to play against. There aren’t many MUs where you go up against a character who can spawn items at will and whose pressure strategies involve items. He’s been arguably the 2nd best character in the game for a while now, popular because of his ground control and item game. Characters with a high falling speed, low jumps and whose metagame revolves around the stage floor, find that Diddy is a very hard matchup to deal with due to his bananas having the ability to cause trips, essentially becoming the first hit towards an inescapable combo if you get hit by them while on the ground.

    Kirby’s main goal in this MU is, basically, to have Diddy throw his bananas at you. Usually this is a bad thing to want, but we have some traits that make it possible for us to turn this into an advantageous situation: multiple jumps, floatiness and our small size! Due to us having multiple jumps, we can aircamp Diddy and avoid the dangers of bananas, while at the same time keeping an eye on him for when he commits to a decision we can punish from above. None of Diddy’s aerials are menacing to us while aircamping (save for his fair, and it’s just a matter of learning how far it reaches and how fast he moves in the air), and if we just float near the ground, we’re constantly bombarding the Diddy’s second-nature reaction of “throw the banana!” (technically, we’re playing footsies with his banana’s range), landing at random intervals to renew our jumps. It’s just a matter of time before we successfully bait a banana throw, and now Diddy has no banana with which to threaten us. If you’re near Diddy when this happens, landing into a grab or a well-spaced bair would be your best options. While Diddy has no bananas in his hand, we can now string in peace as if he was any other character.

    It’s recommended that you know a fair share about item handling, because experience and observations have taught me that when other Kirbies don’t know how to use bananas properly the matchup gets much harder, but after I applied my item knowledge to the MU, Diddy was having more trouble than usual controlling the bananas due to an opponent with a high level of item control. If you don’t know how to use them you should throw them offstage, if you do then you should know what to do whenever a situation presents itself.

    For damage-racking, your goal is to string him when he throws his banana. From the Diddy’s positioning it should be fairly obvious when and when not to approach with a bair; too far, and you should wait for another opportunity. Whenever the chance to trade hits presents itself, take it since his killing options will be saved for when he has the chance, the more damage you cause to Diddy the faster you take his stocks! You don’t have to worry about killing him as much as he has to worry about killing you, since your killing moves are disjointed and can frametrap his bad decisions.

    Diddies usually kill with surprise throws you failed to DI, utilt at high percentages, banana>dsmash combo, fsmash’s second hit, and fair at high percentages. Although he has some relatively fast killing options, he has no frametrapping capabilities so usually his killing moves come from him approaching, a banana throw or an OoS option against a poorly-spaced attack. If you’re careful enough, you could easily live past 180% by DI’ing his staled aerials from all of your air-camping, or from raising your shields whenever he gets near you without a banana and not letting go until he grabs you (you can’t get smashed in your shield, his only option of damage-racking is grabbing), which is great for a character as light and floaty as Kirby. Don’t try anything risky like a dash attack or a dair while he’s on-stage, those decisions are what will get you killed most of the time, so just stick to your safer options and you’ll breeze through stocks against Diddy like it’s nobody’s business. That’s not to say that a Diddy who knows how to force reactions from you won’t trick you into committing to an attack for him to kill you though, you have to take this MU seriously all the time, since it’s roughly even he can still turn the matchup around with some smart options.

    Our killing options will be the same as always: (re)freshed bairs at 140%+ (revenge killing when you respawn and he’s at higher %s, or forming gimping scenarios with staled/sourspotted bairs), uthrows on platforms at 150%+ (and on the ground at 170%+), up-angled fsmashes at 130%+ (clash against his grounded approaches or aerials), frame-trapping dsmashes (catch him when he comes back from off-stage recovering), dairs at Diddy for being below stage-level (blow up his barrels, it’s a 100% death rate for him)… Racking damage is the same as always as well, from tilts to juggling to shieldgrabs. String as much as you can when Diddy’s above you, since his aerial game isn’t good enough to pose a threat to you when you’re below him.

    Conclusion? Kirby versus Diddy, even. There’s always the chance that the Diddy will know what to do more than you do, so stay on your toes.[/collapse]


    [collapse=Ness vs Kirby (0) by Yink]This matchup takes a lot of patience and spacing. Both Kirby and Ness have good tools for spacing, primarily Kirby's bair and Ness' fair. If the Kirby is perfect with his bair spacing, he will more than likely be safe and do damage. However, if he's not quite perfect, Ness’ fair will win, leading to another fair, etc. When it comes to spacing and stage control, these characters are roughly equally good at it.

    As far as killing goes, Kirby is very light and most likely cannot reliably kill Ness until around 150% (otherwise, a gimp is always a possible kill). Ness doesn't have trouble killing, with the ability to KO Kirby at around 110% thanks to bthrow, or a bit later thanks to bair or uair. Kirby relies on his ability to bair and fsmash, the latter of which can force Ness to the ground even though Ness will be spending much of his time in the air.

    Recoverywise Kirby is superior, but Ness isn't as helpless when he recovers as once thought, seeing as he can save his double jump or fair fast fall, or recover high enough to ensure a safe landing back on stage (because taking some damage to return is far better than dying at a lower percent). That isn't to say Ness won't have some problems offstage against Kirby, dair could potentially be a problem if Ness doesn't have his double jump or doesn't recover high. Typically Ness mains will take the reliable and safe way back to the stage.

    In terms of killing and recovery the two characters excel in areas where the other doesn't, making this matchup fairly even.[/collapse]


    [collapse=Ness vs Yoshi (0) by Delta-cod] This matchup is heavily dependent on the neutral state at mid range spacing. Yoshi has eggs to force Ness to come this close, but once Ness reaches mid range, it is no longer safe for Yoshi to throw eggs due to the lag involved.

    At mid range, the two characters are typically faced with a game of Rock Paper Scissors. Each character has a generally safe option (pivot grab for Yoshi, retreating Fair for Ness), although these are both punishable on a read. Approaches from either side can be countered with a proper reaction or read from the other, making this matchup very player based, as momentum tends to flow with the player who is making good decisions at this neutral state.

    It's important to note that Yoshi has the advantage of grab releasing Ness, which can lead to Usmash (for damage) or Uair (for killing). This makes Yoshi's pivot grab and dash grab have a good deal more reward than what Ness typically gets, and was originally a major reason as to why Yoshi had a +1 advantage over Ness. The rating was lowered to even due to the fact that Ness, as a character and as a result of advancements in his player base, excels at avoiding getting grabbed, making Yoshi's grab release much less of an issue than had been previously thought.

    Outside of the neutral mid range state, both characters are relatively even in keeping momentum going, although Ness has it slightly harder while recovering offstage. However, with good DI and by saving his DJ, gimps shouldn't be happening on either side of the match up.[/collapse]


    [collapse=Pikachu vs Meta Knight (0) by ESAM]Seeing how Pikachu is now the only character with an even matchup against Meta Knight, we felt like we should explain this. There will be two parts to this explanation: the matchup itself and then a comparison with other contenders for an even matchup against MK.

    Pikachu vs MK is basically all RPS situations. MK has the slight edge on spacing and safety, but Pikachu gets much more rewards per hit because of chaingrabs and followups. Pikachu's projectile also helps, because it makes MK initiate. Couple this with the fact that Pikachu is an amazing punisher and you get a pretty good situation for Pikachu. MK's safety is his main attribute in this MU, and it is mostly for pokes more than camping. Pikachu's uair is a really good move to combat dair camping, and planking is rendered semi-useless with T-jolts. MK's safety translates to his kill game. D-smash is pretty safe and at max range it is near impossible to punish without a power shield. However, it won't kill consistently until the 130% range while Pikachu's more punishable kill moves will take a stock closer to 105-110% (F-smash or u-tilt/u-smash thunder).

    Now, there are 2-3 other candidates that could be even with MK, and those are Diddy, Falco, and Fox. A huge benefit that Pikachu has over them is the fact that he doesn't get gimped. All of the other three are in REALLY bad situations if they are ever off-stage, while Pikachu is pretty safe. Diddy has better ground control than all, and Fox/Falco can camp better than Diddy/Pikachu. Pikachu has similar abilities, but is outshined. The gimping is a huge factor because there is honestly more of a chance of Pikachu getting a fluke kill due to MK having bad DI than getting gimped. Pikachu also doesn't suffer from stages like the other three, since he can definitely handle RC, Delfino, and Frigate (although Pikachu players will always ban Brinstar).[/collapse]

    -

    BATCH 3 (posted on 4/24/2012)

    [collapse=Ike vs Yoshi (0) by Ussi]Neutral Position: In a neutral position, Yoshi will either throw an egg or try to cross up Ike predicting a dash attack. While Yoshi has an amazingly fast pivot grab, Ike outranges it with fair so Yoshi doesn't get pivot grabs too often, however Yoshi's dash grab still is effective against Ike, so Yoshi still can abuse his grab release chain grab on Ike. The CG has a weird timing, but during such, Ike should avoid jumping if the Yoshi has it mastered as Ike will lose his 2nd jump then and if grab released at the ledge, he won't be able to make it back with just aether alone.

    Ike's offense/Yoshi's defense:Yoshi's double jump lets him get out of any extravagant jab cancel shenanigans, even letting him punish with nair if he super armors a jab, so Ike's jab cancel is limited to just an extra jab 1 for slightly more damage or a grab. Yoshi's shield is a bit of a problem for him as it gives him limited ability to reliable punish Ike's aerials. He does have his spotdodge (only 2 frames of vulnerability keep in mind) > jab to quickly knock Ike away. Ike will focus on staying in range for his aerials while not being too close to Yoshi as his faster attacks will give Ike trouble otherwise.

    When it comes to edgeguarding Yoshi, it comes down to a simple mindgame when returning onto the stage. With the lack of a sweetspot double jump, Ike can try to predict either an attack or an air dodge from Yoshi. But with egg toss, Yoshi can cover his recovery fairly well as Ike is forced to avoid the egg.

    Yoshi's offense/Ike's defense: Ike's aerial range does make it hard for Yoshi to approach, but Yoshi's speed in the air and of his aerials let Yoshi bombard Ike once he lands a hit. If Ike is too hasty to throw out aerials as well, Yoshi can capitalize on Ike's lag with his air speed. So while Ike does have the range advantage Yoshi has the speed to lay constant pressure on Ike once he lands a hit with his quick aerials and air speed.

    When it comes to edgeguarding Ike, Yoshi can opt to either just egg Ike for more damage or be risky and try to go offstage. Going offstage is risky if Yoshi ends up getting caught by aether out of his 2nd jump. However with the use of eggs as pressure/baits, Yoshi can jump off and throw an egg to force an airdodge (or Ike can get hit), and then try to follow up on it. Otherwise, Yoshi can't really get Ike if he DIs well. There is a trick where if Yoshi times an egg, he can hit you at the arc of aether and then go for a grab. Ike is pretty much dead if he doesn't space aether properly to avoid this.

    Overall both sides are aggressive here, with their own mix of defense to combat the other's approach. The one who can approach better ends up winning, so its a 0 MU

    Stages for Ike: BF, Lylat

    Stages for Yoshi: FD, SV
    [/collapse]

    [collapse=Kirby vs Falco (0) by Kewkky]Another character that has never gone below the highest tiers, Falco is one of those characters with the ability to both camp all match then come in for the kill, and play aggressive while staying relatively safe. A well-played Falco will always make it into the higher tourney placings, it’s only a handful of characters that have an edge over Falco, and it’s always for some different reason. Lucky for us, Kirby has some small advantages over Falco! This MU has been debated quite fiercely in the past, people saying it’s Kirby’s advantage, others saying it’s Falco’s slight advantage, and many others supporting the other more even areas. His famous lasers and chaingrab make up most of his metagame, and thanks to Kirby’s light weight, multiple jumps, floatiness and small crouch, we can get around this relatively easy.

    One thing you have to know in this MU is that Falco chains his laser into many things. When he lasers while landing, he has no landing lag, so he gets frame advantage even if you shield them. His jab is also fast enough to get him frame advantage, so expect a lot of chaining from lasers and jabs against you. Your goal should be to get yourself somewhere where Falco is forced to commit to a longer-lasting attack, so the air is where you want to be. He has decent aerials, but half of them are multi-hit so you can SDI them and bair him for doing them, and the others won’t hit you if you’re hovering at the right distance (bair and dair are the only single-hit aerials of his, also his aerial movement is slow so uair isn’t something you have to be afraid of). If he jabs you or lasers you from close-up at lower %s, he’s going to dthrow chaingrab you. We only take about 25% from dthrows, but he’ll try and end in a dair or a gatling combo (dash attack + usmash) for an added 10-15% damage, so evading his grabs is a necessity, simply space your rising bairs and you’ll be safe. He’s a fastfaller but the slowest of the space animals, so strings/combos/chains won’t work as much against him as they would against the other two… Once you get him offstage, all you have to do is bair. Dair won’t knock him out of his sideB unless you aim it well, but bair will always knock him away, so stick to bairing him. If he’s below stage-level, a single dair hit will kill him, so if you see him upB’ing towards the ledge, jump after him and dair.

    Falco kills with his usmash (boosted usually, its his most surprising smash since he can hit you with hit from long distances), fsmash (has some start-up so you should always know to not jump into his fsmashes, usually Falcos do it as an edgeguard/punish when you’re near them), dsmash (has relatively low range, and usually punishes you for landing near him or rolling into him), and bair (kills at high %s, so don’t worry much about it). He has no killing throws, so if you’re torn between taking a hit or getting grabbed at high %s, you should always choose to get grabbed. If he hits you with a multy-hit aerial while you’re on the ground and at high %s, make sure to buffer a shield so that he can’t kill you! If you’re offstage he can’t do anything to you but laser, and if you’re below stage-level you’re safe from everything, and he risks dying if he jumps down to try and hit you. When aiming for the ledge, don’t upB too high and always go for the lowest sweet-spotting possible, since he can dair your upB and kill you! He can also kill you with uair, but you should make sure that, with your multiple jumps, you won’t get uair’d and die. Apart from these things, there’s no need to worry about Falco’s killing options.

    You, as Kirby, will do what you always do to kill: fsmash punishes (he can wavebounce lasers when recovering from high up to trick you into fsmashing, so only do so if you’re confident it’ll hit), dsmash his landing attempts (fresh dsmash kills him at if he predict you’re not gonna shield and dairs/nairs you for it, fsmash him next time… Our fsmash trades hits with all his aerials so he’ll die), uthrowing him (platformed stages mainly of course, kills him at ~180% from the ground at BattleField and ~160% from the top platform), bairing him (after refreshing it with pummels, or after respawning when it’s fresh), and dairing him offstage (situational since Falcos will always try to recover from high, but it’s common sense that they always aim for the ledge due to them falling faster than they move horizontally in the air). If you can, take Falco to a stage with no ledges/lack of ledges and no walkoffs to see him struggle while recovering. One offstage Falco in these is guaranteed death if you intercept him with bairs all the time until he’s at high %s.

    On a side note, our fsmash clashes with his sideB, and doesn’t hit him. Stick to bairing the recovery attempts unless he goes for an upB while offstage.[/collapse]

    [collapse=Kirby vs Wario (-1/+1) by Kewkky]Wario’s aerial movement makes it so that he’s the most evasive character around. Commit to an attack, and he’ll be on you before you have a time to react. He’s so fast that he can weave around grab attempts as well and punish you for trying! He’s also one of the most notorious characters for timing out matches, he’s usually faster than his opponents in the air so he can evade aerials and run away until the match ends and he wins. Now, the ability to run away wouldn’t be THAT bad if he didn’t have a lethal attack that gets stronger as time passes! He can frametrap you with his downB, intercept your attacks or recovery attempts, recover himself, or bait reactions from you and punish with something else. His downB, when charged appropriately, can kill almost any character at 60%, and Kirby should die after 50%, even with good DI. Apart from that attack, Wario doesn’t pose much of a killing threat in the air, his only other killing aerial hits straight above him so it can be evaded by staying away from that zone.

    Due to Wario’s aerial movement, you don’t want to commit to long-lasting attacks. You also don’t want to recklessly throw out aerials because he can easily punish them with a dair, which leads to a grab more than half of the time. So, common sense dictates that you want fast attacks that can stop Wario in his tracks for you to string moves, fast in start-up and cooldown. Lucky for us, Kirby has one such attack, and it’s his utilt! I’ve tried it many times before and it completely ruins Wario’s aerial game. Simply turn your back to him and utilt whenever he comes close to you or the ground (essentially frametrapping his landings, since our utilt’s hitbox doesn’t instantly disappear), and the only way he can get to you is from the ground, which is where he’s worst. If you position yourself below a stationary platform and turn your bck to Wario, he has no chance of getting to you from the air at all. From a utilt, you can do another utilt if he didn’t SDI and end with a bair, or just go straight to the bair. This is one of those MUs where you can’t rely on grabs for damage-racking too; it’s all tilts and aerials this time because of Wario’s mobility and ability to punish your whiffs. Also, the usual gimps will be hard to pull off in this match because of Wario’s ability to cover large vertical distances with a mix of his second jump+sideB+jumping off the bike+downB+upB, all while moving away from our dair attempts due to his horizontal aerial movement. This is one of those MUs where it would also do Kirby good to take his opponent’s copy ability, since it will come in handy much more than an inhale, and it’s relatively easy to pull off due to Wario’s short-ranged attacks.

    Wario doesn’t have many kill moves. His most reliable kill moves are fsmash, uair and downB.
    His most dangerous move, of course, is his downB. He can catch you by surprise and take your stock, and no amount of DI will save you if you’re above 50% and it’s timed well. Wario loves to camp his opponents, but what hurts him is if you camp him as well. Don’t approach if you don’t need to, stay under a platform and utilt his approaches, and wait until he starts shining green before you can approach again; a fully-charged downb won’t kill Kirby until mid-high %s (around 90%+, depends on the stages’ ceiling’s height), and while Wario tries to go in, you’re racking up damage and refreshing your bair with utilts. Once Wario decides to try something risky to hit you with, you can punish him with a smash or a grab for the kill!

    What Kirby should use for killing in this MU would be up-angled fsmashes as punishers once Wario is at 130%+, and dair gimps when Wario’s recovery trajectory below stage-level is predictable. It’s not smart to be overly aggressive here, and if you keep your fsmash fresh the whole match, one fsmash punish at higher %s is enough to take care of his stock. Dsmash is also an acceptable punisher if Wario is coming back on-stage, or you’re forcing Wario to airdodge into you by utilting his aerial approaches, due to its range and how long it lasts it has a decently-sized margin for error, you can be off in the timing and still kill him at ~150%+.

    Other than that, the MU is slow. Don’t let your need to hurry up get the better of you, this match MUST be played patiently or else he’ll take your stock before you realize he just downB’d you. And as a last important note: always pay attention to the timer and learn everything you can about Wario prior to your tourneys! Going up against a character that forces you to play a bit differently with no idea of what he’s thinking will lead to a shameful loss.[/collapse]

    [collapse=Ness vs Ice Climbers (-1/+1) by Yink]:ness2: vs :popo: (-2/+2 to -1/+1)

    Ness brings to the matchup PSI Magnet, PK Fire, Nair and Fair. While in the past it was believed the ICs could wall Ness well, upon re-looking into the match up it’s a different story.

    Ness contends well with the “keep away” game. PK Fire stops Ice Blocks, and creates a pillar of PK Fire for safety. Magnet (along with cancelling it) allows Ness fast recovery of more than 50% at a time. Using Blizzard can be risky.

    Besides the keep away, Ness’ best out of shield option, Nair, is good for splitting up the ICs, and Fair is good for harassing either Climber once they’ve been broken up. Ness can also harass offstage with PK Thunder and Dair while the Climbers recover.

    Ness still falls short in the recovery category, as it can be difficult to recover against Ice Blocks. The ICs also take advantage of Ness as he lands back on the stage, making juggling easy for them and a nightmare for Ness.

    Therefore, the MU is now a +1 ICs, not a +2.[/collapse]

    [collapse=Ness vs Sheik (-1/+1) by Yink]:ness2: vs. :sheik: (-2/+2 to -1/+1)

    Sheik’s combo and up close game give Ness a lot of trouble. She has an effective grab release to FTilt combo and air released Fair or DACUS. She racks up damage faster than Ness can, but suffers when trying to kill him.

    Ness on the other hand, kills much earlier (due to Sheiks lighter weight) and has an effective out of shield option, being Nair. Sheik has a bit of a tough time handling Fair and Nair, and Ness can use them effectively to push Sheik away from him.

    Offstage, both characters fall in an even area as far as gimps and harassment goes. Ness can use PK Thunder and Sheik can use Needles. Ness shouldn’t be worried about going offstage too much against Sheik either.

    However, Ness still falls to Sheik’s pressure game, and has a few issues landing against her. But because of her lightweight and her issues with killing, the match up isn’t as poor as it was once thought to be.

    Therefore a +1 for Sheik, instead of a +2.[/collapse]

    [collapse=Pit vs R.O.B. (0) by Krystedez]R.O.B. has probably the easiest time out of the entire cast edgeguarding Pit. He has a laser that can be angled to stop Pit's glide approaches (even so much that glide shifting does not keep Pit safe, because of the diagonal trajectory). He has gyros to keep pressure by having not only an active projectile in the air that is hard to grab, but also on the ledge, to be a trap into anything R.O.B. has (a grab from gyro sitting in place is quite common, as well as jabs to keep Pit stuck in the gyro). Gyro is also used in many other ways such as Z-drops to force Pit to not rise up from below the stage easily.

    All of R.O.B.'s aerials are wall-like, and can easily waste Pit's mid air jumps. If this occurs, Pit has literally no options unless he DI's up and OVER R.O.B.. Going towards R.O.B., or being below him, with no jumps and just Up-B is suicide. His laser and/or another fair can rip Pit's wings apart in those situations. If Pit goes below the stage, it's like Falco only much more accurate and safe to attempt a laser-snipe/wing-clip.

    Pit on the other hand, like with any other bulky character, has the tools to pelt R.O.B. offstage with arrows continually. Sticking out a fair or uair can interrupt some of R.O.B.'s approaches back to the stage, most notably his nair. General offstage game is also in Pit's favour, though he has to be careful to not overcommit.

    With ground and air play, Pit wins in juggling and launching attempts. R.O.B. wins in grabs and ground based play in general. Pit wins slightly in the air and R.O.B. wins slightly on ground. R.O.B. has a generally high damage output on average when compared to Pit. Pit can juggle for a long time, but he doesn't get a lot of damage out of it.

    Camping seems to be very even with both having projectiles and reflectors.

    Generally, Pits have thought of this matchup as being their favor. That is clearly not the case, as it is closer to R.O.B.'s favor, but it's perfectly manageable and can be easily won by either side, especially when the lead is obtained. Pit has an easier time regaining the percent lead though. Stocks are evened out rather easily, as both can force action from the other. This isn't Toon Link vs Pit, it's not all fun and projectiles (i.e., camping all dai). You've got to mix it up as Pit to keep the lead, and actually pressure R.O.B., or he will pressure you.[/collapse]
     
  3. Marc

    Marc
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    Revival of M

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    -reserved-
     
  4. Shaya

    Shaya
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          「chase you」 

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    Yay for a new chart!
     
  5. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    Umm... delete this if I can't post here (as in, thread moving for the final release or something :x). The difference table is partially inaccurate, at least for Snake and Pikachu. Otherwise, things look pretty good :)

    :059:

    :phone:
     
  6. philbobjoe

    philbobjoe
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    The new chart is looking good. Is it going to have colors added eventually like the old one?
     
  7. Doc King

    Doc King
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    D3 matchups look pretty good. Only problems I have with them is I think are mainly Lucario should be +2 and Ganon should be +4. Otherwise, pretty good. It would definitely make sense D3 would lose to Diddy -2 and Zero Suit only -1. Diddy is so much more annoying. Zero Suit you at least get some good tech chase options and stuff. Also, yay for Wario being +2!

    Edit: Whoops, I thought I saw Zero Suit being a -1.
     
  8. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    Whoops lol I'm good at getting ninja'd xD but yeah, HUGE shoutout to everyone that worked on this (especially Marc for leading the project and everything), it was a lot of work and I'm pretty pleased with how things turned out overall.

    :059:

    :phone:
     
  9. SaveMeJebus

    SaveMeJebus
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    Diddy goes even with MK. So does Fox
     
  10. Twinkie

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    .

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    Not anymore. :)

    Good stuff everybody. I'm glad this is finally out.
     
  11. SaveMeJebus

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    Yeah, ever since Diddys' started complaining instead of getting better.
     
  12. infiniteV115

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    WTF at Diddy gimping ZSS better than she gimps him. Does P-1 even have experience in this MU?
     
  13. Marc

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    We'll fix that. If only you were 10 minutes earlier. :p

    We're going to make the chart look better, but decided it's better to put it out now because the data is all there and at some point you just need to release. It's definitely a work in progress. :)
     
  14. Mr. Johan

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    *MK even with Pikachu*

    *Goes to see MU elaboration down below, figuring that would certainly be one of those matchups explained*

    *Does not see "Meta Knight vs. Pikachu"*

    Yeah, I want explanations on this before I subscribe to that opinion, lol
     
  15. Zankoku

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    Time to start working on writing stuff.
     
  16. infiniteV115

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    You might want to throw in here that the MU chart assumes the Unity Ruleset (it does, right?).
     
  17. Sinister Slush

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    ❄ I miss my kind ❄

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    Good, I've been anticipating this.
    Time to argue all over again!
     
  18. Ishiey

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    The MU chart assumes Unity. A MK vs Pika write-up is basically done iirc, should be released soon after a QC.

    :059:

    :phone:
     
  19. SFA Smiley

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    The SFA King

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    This is to another 700 pages of bickering :D
     
  20. Alacion

    Alacion
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    It's over.

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    Eugh... Zelda with positive matchups yet again... and CF even?

    Ganondorf shouldn't be higher than +1, and that's already a stretch.
     
  21. Marc

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    We have more writeups near completion, MK vs Pikachu is one of them.

    Yep, I added a line about that.
     
  22. infiniteV115

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    I don't even get a thank you?:(
    Just for that, I'll brew up a flame war


    I DISAGREE WITH EVERYTHING
     
  23. Delta-cod

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    Well, I disagree with infinite.
     
  24. Iota

    Iota
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    Why is Wario even with Sheik? I thought it was +1 for Wario. Same question and statement for Pikachu.
     
  25. Ussi

    Ussi
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    Pikachu wanted a better MU spread than Marth
     
  26. Yink

    Yink
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    The Robo-PSIentist

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    Not too bad on Ness' part. Chart looks good.
     
  27. IhaveSonar

    IhaveSonar
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    Is there any particular reasoning behind the order of the characters along the top and side of the chart? Not that it really matters, but I'm just curious.

    The matchups look good.
     
  28. Shaya

    Shaya
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          「chase you」 

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    And you pikakids did everything they could through lying, cheating and sleeping with the people in power to get your spread as OP'd as possible.
     
  29. Doc King

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    It actually surprises me how mk has an even matchup with Pikachu.
     
  30. Marc

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    Revival of M

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    Their total matchup score determined the order (the average scores would accomplish the same). It's completely unweighted though, so having a good matchup against what is perceived as low tier weighs the same as having a good matchup against a more viable character. We might work with the data more in the future.
     
  31. Gardex

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    only one even matchup for MK?
    And it's Pikachu?
     
  32. da K.I.D.

    da K.I.D.
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    and let the salt storm begin...
     
  33. san.

    san.
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    1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

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    Meh, don't know what to think of this yet.
     
  34. Zankoku

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    Never Knows Best

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    After a lot of discussion among the Warios and maybe a little less discussion among the Sheiks, it was determined that it was a match-up that could be argued for either character to barely edge out the other. I'll make a note of your query and include it in my list of match-ups to write about, though.
     
  35. SinisterB

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    Why is Pika on par with DDD for Wolf's worst MU? It's definitely manageable.

    Why do we lose to Diddy?
     
  36. Iota

    Iota
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    Okay thank you Sight.

    On 2nd look of the chart it looks decent except for certain MUs and chars
     
  37. KuroganeHammer

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    oh em gee this

    wtfbbqhax
     
  38. SFA Smiley

    SFA Smiley
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    My only personal gripes is that I feel ZSS/GW are even and I am probably the only person who thinks this but I think GW is only +1 against Link

    For ZSS vs. us I don't see why we lose... That's about it really. I think it's probably one of our most even matchups. Can she do anything about Nair? does her Uair beat our dair? How safe is she offstage? (our strongest area)

    She's a lightweight isn't she? I mean I don't think we win, that matchup i've always perceived as extremely even.

    And Link, it's totally possible that i'm wrong, but i think he actually does pretty well against GW. He's got good camp game and a sword. And that's really it. It's black and white but why overcomplicate anything?

    Other than that as far as I can tell this chart is pretty good except for the whole Pika vs MK thing. I can't wrap my head around that being an even matchup if every other character loses to MK.
     
  39. KuroganeHammer

    KuroganeHammer
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    Burning Courage

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    Zelda's u-air beats G&W's dair, so yeah, Zamus' uair would.
     
  40. Browny

    Browny
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    lol @ the overall rankings

    DK so low, and snake quite low too. once again marth gets a free ride to the top for no reason.

    Nothing much seems to have changed overall though, meh.
     
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