Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Seagull Joe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHQwUxGCcmQ this is supposed to be a true combo but any human player can easily air dodge it. You shouldn't really trust training mode.

Landing one Usmash to two Uairs I have done on tourney vs MVD . It isn't hard at all to do...That vid shows a combo that is highly unlikely to occur, but bair walls happen quite frequently.

 

[Vinylic.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHQwUxGCcmQ this is supposed to be a true combo but any human player can easily air dodge it. You shouldn't really trust training mode.

That's kind of true right there. But there's a chance that it could happen.
You might not expect it, lol.

 

[z00ted]

Illm you probably should post the matchups if they're actually wrong so he can fix them

Oh wait, nvm LMAO.
I got a few things mixed up...

I though should be -1 for Peach, though.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Landing one Usmash to two Uairs I have done on tourney vs MVD . It isn't hard at all to do...That vid shows a combo that is highly unlikely to occur, but bair walls happen quite frequently.

It doesn't make them legit though. Players can easily air dodge those comboes. I agree that Wolf's U-air is a pretty good move, but it's more of a surprise move than a juggling move in my opinion.

 

[Seagull Joe]

It doesn't make them legit though. Players can easily air dodge those comboes. I agree Wolf's U-air is a pretty good move, but it's more of a surprise move than a juggling move in my opinion.

If they have the option to airdodge then they can get frame trapped by 's Nair.

Sure it isn't like 's Uair or 's Uair that combo into themselves easily, but it's pretty similar to s. People just continually get hit by that move over and over even when it hits about the same as 's Uair. If you're considering 's Uair not to be a juggle move for that reason then you'd have to say the same for 's Uair.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If they have the option to airdodge then they can get frame trapped by 's Nair.

Sure it isn't like 's Uair or 's Uair that combo into themselves easily, but it's pretty similar to s. People just continually get hit by that move over and over even when it hits about the same as 's Uair. If you're considering 's Uair not to be a juggle move for that reason then you'd have to say the same for 's Uair.

There is no way you can compare Marth's U-air to wolf's. Can you space your FF U-air to hit your opponent's shield without getting shield grabbed?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I did work on Lucario and Link for this.

Now it's write up time I suppose.

 

[Seagull Joe]

There is no way you can compare Marth's U-air to wolf's. Can you space your FF U-air to hit your opponent's shield without getting shield grabbed?

Can he even do that?

And on the back of his shield I can, but not the front.

 

[Steam]

wow... lucario ended up with like his best case scenario spread and is still 4 spots lower... but I guess that's in large part due to the fact that he doesn't destroy many low tiers... which doesn't matter anyways.

MK being his only -2... is going to be difficult to get used to...

I also am not sure about lucario v. bowser being +1... but I don't really play that matchup so I can't really comment.

 

[Flayl]

Why is Mario VS MK still -2

Here's what I disagree with about the Bowser chart, with what I think about the MU after the character:

Shielda: -2
Pokémon Trainer: 0
Ike: -1
Ganondorf: +2
Game & Watch: -1
Peach: -1, but I'm not even sure anymore

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Can he even do that?

And on the back of his shield I can, but not the front.

He can. Marths do it in the Snake MU all the time.

How is the opponent supposed to shield grab you from behind?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I like how jebus was talking about landing with wolf (which had nothing to do with the topic he was actually discussing with Doc and Seagull, and neglected to mention that one move he has where he makes a giant red circle appear around him, and is invincible on command for 5 frames.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's uair can outspace grabs from several characters.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

wow... lucario ended up with like his best case scenario spread and is still 4 spots lower... but I guess that's in large part due to the fact that he doesn't destroy many low tiers... which doesn't matter anyways.

Ness and Luigi are now 0 as well, so it ended up with some bad changes for him down in the lower tiers.

 

[Seagull Joe]

He can. Marths do it in the Snake MU all the time.

How is the opponent supposed to shield grab you from behind?

You just said shield grabbed. You didn't say that I had to hit you from the front.

I'm sure could do it vs some characters, but grounded Uair isn't usually an amazing option for any character.

I like how jebus was talking about landing with wolf (which had nothing to do with the topic he was actually discussing with Doc and Seagull, and neglected to mention that one move he has where he makes a giant red circle appear around him, and is invincible on command for 5 frames.

8 actually.

 

[Steam]

Ness and Luigi are now 0 as well, so it ended up with some bad changes for him down in the lower tiers.

like bowser only being +1 now, and losing sonic and yoshi as +3s.

but still this spread is really optimistic for lucario. to me Snake, D3, and Fox are all -2s and MK is borderline -3... lol.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

like bowser only being +1 now, and losing sonic and yoshi as +3s.

but still this spread is really optimistic for lucario. to me Snake, D3, and Fox are all -2s and MK is borderline -3... lol.

Snake was odd, but it ended up as a -1

D3, Fox and MK were agreed upon to be -1, -1 and -2.

~

Also I just noticed Link vs G&W is listed incorrectly, gonna ask that to be fixed.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You just said shield grabbed. You didn't say that I had to hit you from the front.

I'm sure could do it vs some characters, but grounded Uair isn't usually an amazing option for any character.

8 actually.

Well, any character could get away with that in that case.

It's a pretty good option for Marth in most match ups. That alone already makes Marth a better juggler than Wolf.

 

[Neon!]

Dk's position on this chart is not indicative of his actual viability, many of dk's matchups were moved down due to the lack of input from top DK players (like Will) and me and Ripple's obvious lack of faith in our character.

Lucas being moved down to +3 means nothing.

The only major change here is that mk moved to -3 for us which is insignifacnt since he is banned. On the same note other characters moved mk to -3 such as Peach and yoshi.

I'd be happy to do a write up for any of DK's matchups, especially the ones that changed.

 

[Nairo]

lmao @ pika mk even and fox mk isnt

 

[1PokeMastr]

Yay! Falco dropped! And I happen to main him too.
But he never deserved to be that high.

I also said Marth beats Falco. Glad I was right.
I know why too~

 

[Tin Man]

My only john is Marth vs Oli is even.

 

[Ishiey]

Pika vs MK being even isn't *that* far-fetched, and both sides came to that consensus. Wait for the write-up I suppose.

On who actually participated, there should be a list of all panelists in the BBR Updates thread, although some things might've changed around from the original panels.

Jebus, please stop. You're arguing about Wolf with a top3 Wolf in the US. Preeeeeeeeeetty sure he knows better than you. Wolf's juggling game is one of his stronger assets, especially on stages with platforms.

 

[M@v]

I wasn't a part of this project as I came into the BBR when things were wrapping up. Can I get an explanation on the Falco/mk being mk advantage? Are you taking into account mk's strong cps against falco?

Also I don't agree at all with pika being the ONLY even character vs mk. I'm sorry I can't accept it. I feel Diddy and falco both do better than pika does vs mk.

I personally feel pika loses, but I'm not arguing that. I just feel that if your going to put pika as even, falco and diddy need to be there too >_>

 

[infiniteV115]

But he never deserved to be that high.

Falco doesn't really prefer the air anyway.

 

[Bloodcross]

Pikachu doesn't go even with MK. He has to guess in order for him to even compete vs a good MK. ESAM beating M2K once proves nothing, since matchup ratios are partially decided by results as well as frame data and stuff. Though Pika has a lot of options to combat in the ground game, has a chain grab to nair, will rarely ever get gimped by MK (MK should just Tornado though), and can kill relatively early. But guessing doesn't make it even folks. It IS a close matchup, MK by no means destroys Pikachu.

If MK has the lead, all he has to do is Dair camp the rest of the game or even just shield camp. But that's too convenient of a conclusion.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Falco vs Meta ? It's a total drag for Falco.
We may have a Chain Grab and all, but if he spaces, we can't do much about that.

Not to Mention that he can Nado Phantasm.. then Nado again before our RCO lag kicks in, then Punish our 15 - 30 Frames RCO lag.

It's bad Mu for Falco.

 

[zeldasmash]

Question:

In the matchup chart: Link vs Falcon is even.

In the individual character spreads: Its +1 Link's favor

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Jebus, please stop. You're arguing about Wolf with a top3 Wolf in the US. Preeeeeeeeeetty sure he knows better than you. Wolf's juggling game is one of his stronger assets, especially on stages with platforms.

Wolf's juggling game is probably mid tier at best (dead center). He doesn't juggle any character that doesn't already get juggled by almost every other character in the game.

 

[Tin Man]

I wasn't a part of this project as I came into the BBR when things were wrapping up. Can I get an explanation on the Falco/mk being mk advantage? Are you taking into account mk's strong cps against falco?

Also I don't agree at all with pika being the ONLY even character vs mk. I'm sorry I can't accept it. I feel Diddy and falco both do better than pika does vs mk.

I personally feel pika loses, but I'm not arguing that. I just feel that if your going to put pika as even, falco and diddy need to be there too >_>

You should be able to read up on it since your a member now.

 

[Coney]

: only +2

i knew i should've been more active

****

not that the MKs would listen anyway tho

sorry guys

 

[Tin Man]

Yay! Falco dropped! And I happen to main him too.
But he never deserved to be that high.

I also said Marth beats Falco. Glad I was right.
I know why too~

Marth's chaingrab to spike basically.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Marth's chaingrab to spike basically.

That doesn't make the Mu. Falco can SDi and live.
Also depending on the stage.. he can wall jump and all this other Who-Ha.

 

[M@v]

You should be able to read up on it since your a member now.

Its not up yet. I'll just wait for it to be archived I guess.

 

[BSP]

The chart says vs. is -2, but the individual spread says -3

Should be -4 imo, but I'll take the -3

 

[lordhelmet]

Question:

In the matchup chart: Link vs Falcon is even.

In the individual character spreads: Its +1 Link's favor

It should be even.

Also, it looks like OP mistakenly put DK's individual as -2 against when it should be +2.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wasn't a part of this project as I came into the BBR when things were wrapping up. Can I get an explanation on the Falco/mk being mk advantage? Are you taking into account mk's strong cps against falco?

Also I don't agree at all with pika being the ONLY even character vs mk. I'm sorry I can't accept it. I feel Diddy and falco both do better than pika does vs mk.

I personally feel pika loses, but I'm not arguing that. I just feel that if your going to put pika as even, falco and diddy need to be there too >_>

They agreed to it after a discussion.

I agree with you, but they seemed to not be in agreement.

 

[Vinylic.]

The chart says -1 on kirby/pika yet on the individual character spreads, it's 0?

Which is which, lol? I'm starting to believe that there are a lot of mistakes here.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There are a couple errors that people have noticed, we'll work on fixing these asap.

 

[tarextherex]

Yoshi DOES NOT have a -2 vs Diddy. This matchup is honestly even at the very worst for Yoshi, otherwise he does very well vs Diddy. He also beats/goes even with A LOT more characters. DK's mus are severly underrated as well. Will elaborate more tomorrow.