Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[B.A.M.]

Yeah dude. X beats Mike pretty solidly. I really feel at top level that MU is even. Straight up. weirdly enough we can play a little footsie game with Marth due to ftilt and up angled fsmash, our uair is amazing ( something that marth since melee has struggled with), we can escape juggles with aerial spindash or spinshot or spring, and Marth cant truly wall us (SDSC eff up his spacing). Also Spin dash > any Marth aerial lol. We also have gimp potential on the character as well.

Also, why are the Yoshi's so salty about MK being -2 and not -3? I cannot see how that MU can be worse than - 2 when you have projectiles, a solid pivot grab that beats a ton of his ground game, and a solid CG that can net a kill. That just doesnt make any sense to me. I would love to hear why they feel so; im just curious. I would really want to hear their side of things.

 

[Cassius.]

Honestly, it's an obscure matchup but that won't change the fact that it's still pretty disgusting to see when it does happen. You can look at Yoshi's tools from the outside and tell that Bowser doesn't have much to hold his own with or even help with avoiding.

 

[SFA Smiley]

sounds like a +1 for snake to me.

That's exactly what i said.

 

[Delta-cod]

Also, why are the Yoshi's so salty about MK being -2 and not -3? I cannot see how that MU can be worse than - 2 when you have projectiles, a solid pivot grab that beats a ton of his ground game, and a solid CG that can net a kill. That just doesnt make any sense to me. I would love to hear why they feel so; im just curious. I would really want to hear their side of things.

MK is small, has multiple jumps, and is fast on the ground. This essentially invalidates our projectile.

Our pivot grab has a massive blind spot (above the grab box) and is essentially our only defensive tool in the MU, making us predictable. The CG is essentially the ONLY thing we have going for us, but grabbing MK isn't as easy when they're aware of this fact and stop doing things like air dodging into us. MK has no reason to airdodge into us, ever.

Off stage we get destroyed. MK's shuttle loop is a massive threat and heavily limits our options when recovering. We should be taking a lot of damage every time we end up off stage. We get ledge trapped easily. Not to mention, MK's grounded Shuttle Loop invalidates our entire mix up game, due to its invincibility and its general safety against us because we can't punish it on shield.

The entire MU basically comes down to working your *** off and making a read any time you want to get damage in. Even then, sometimes the best we can do off a read is reset to neutral. It's pretty bad.

 

[Espy Rose]

When was the last time a top sonic lost to a marth

srs question, idk

Doesn't matter.
Like all of Sonic's MUs, Sonic loses because everyone else has hitboxes and can grab.

 

[Laem]

Can't you just heavy armor through SL attempts? I'm hesitant to attack aerial yoshi directly cuz that mofo can just heavy armor through and then nair punish >.<
And not gonna lie, Yoshi to me seems to be among the best in dealing with GSL :/. With his airspeed he can net punishes after an air or spotdodge.

 

[Vinylic.]

Can't you just heavy armor through SL attempts? I'm hesitant to attack aerial yoshi directly cuz that mofo can just heavy armor through and then nair punish >.<

This is pretty spot-on.

But it depends on yoshi's doing. Er, I mean the player controlling the character.

 

[Fuujin]

-3:
-2:
-1: (I just know Scary was behind this one)
0:
2:

10 months and you guys still have 1/3rd of her the match ups wrong.

Can't say I'm surprised to be honest consider the flop of a panel.

 

[Z'zgashi]

SL beats out our heavy armor around 30-40%

 

[Delta-cod]

Can't you just heavy armor through SL attempts? I'm hesitant to attack aerial yoshi directly cuz that mofo can just heavy armor through and then nair punish >.<
And not gonna lie, Yoshi to me seems to be among the best in dealing with GSL :/. With his airspeed he can net punishes after an air or spotdodge.

SL beats out our heavy armor around 30-40%

This is accurate. SL is very powerful as far as beating our DJ armor, making it incredibly threatening when you consider how much space it covers. It essentially forces us to recover high, but we can't land.

In order for us to beat GSL, we need to be out of range initially or to dodge it. MK can actually power drop it and then spot dodge to avoid any dash grab follow ups, to my knowledge. Running past him for a pivot grab mixup usually takes too long, so that's pretty much out too. In fact, MK can just GSL again afterwards and it covers all follow up attempts. If we happen to spotdodge it we can punish this easily. Otherwise, we get hit and he can just glide away.

If the MK chooses to continue gliding after the initial SL we can Bair him, but that's about it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Polt fsmash dat glide attack.

 

[Doc King]

I got some questions:

1. Can ppl request different matchup writeups?

2. Are all of the matchups gonna be listed in order?

 

[Delta-cod]

1. Yes

2. Possibly.

 

[Doc King]

I would like to see the D3 vs. Peach, Lucario, Ganon, Wario, Pit, and Zelda writeups. Also Fox vs. Lucario, Zelda vs. Ganon and Yoshi, and Marth vs. Pikachu.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

hey wat happened to releasing the pit pika write up?

 

[Alacion]

I would like to see the D3 vs. Peach, Lucario, Ganon, Wario, Pit, and Zelda writeups. Also Fox vs. Lucario, Zelda vs. Ganon and Yoshi, and Marth vs. Pikachu.

Actually, considering that the Zelda panel and "the rest of the Zeldas" don't seem to have similar matchup opinions, some matchup writeups for her would be nice. Then again, it is Zelda so the writeup may not be worth doing.

I'm going on a limb here to say that most people don't really have matchup experience against Zelda and so the Zelda panel is more relied on to provide a matchup number.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I actually have Zelda experience. Or at least, more than most Yoshi players.

 

[Alacion]

What a coincidence, I have Yoshi MU experience. It's still not an even matchup though

 

[da K.I.D.]

yes but your clearly not high level considering you have a Zelda on your PR zee zee

 

[Death Arcana]

Ya tsuteto is no where near a high level Zelda

 

[Alacion]

Somebody told me he was a really good Zelda. Still you gotta give him props for even repping Zelda and not giving her up for any other character.

Thing is there aren't many Zelda players in general, let alone high level ones. Riot may be the only PR'd Zelda that's at a high level.

 

[Death Arcana]

Ok let me rephrase that
Hes prolly not even at Mid level skill yet.
I've played a pretty good Zelda in Ven
And tsuteto is definitely not at his level

And our PR is a joke for going to top 10
Currently the 9th and 10th hardly show up to tourneys and go 0-2 most of the time so and still get on
Only take the top 5 into account when you look at lol Utah PR

 

[Djent]

I'm still surprised that ikachubrawl: "goes even" with :metaknightbrawl: and :marthbrawl:, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue it so w/e. I really like that you have him at +2 vs. :falcobrawl: now (at least assuming an LGL lol). :lucariobrawl: at -1 is probably an improvement as well. Other than that, nothing stands out to me, so good ****.

 

[Dabuz]

I agree oli is like -2 actually -__- i play against denti sometimes and i really dislike the match up.
What stage counterpicks are you talking about? And with stages like brinstar how can you say we dont have a counter pick?
also, jab is still pretty safe, both YOU and denti didnt punish my jabs

stages for olimar: (IMO) Castle siege and Lylat

Pretend Brinstar is banned by the olimar, do you have any other strong CPs?

My mistake about jab, i just lumped it with the rest of ZSS's unsafe moves.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I found several errors in the chart and data:

Toon Link

Toon Link icon should be Sheilda



DK

Falcon should be –2, not +2



Sheik

Sheilda should be –1, not 0



Link

Falcon should be 0, not 1



Aside from that, thanks for another great update

 

[z00ted]

Current Chart:


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

My opinion:


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ok let me rephrase that
Hes prolly not even at Mid level skill yet.
I've played a pretty good Zelda in Ven
And tsuteto is definitely not at his level

And our PR is a joke for going to top 10
Currently the 9th and 10th hardly show up to tourneys and go 0-2 most of the time so and still get on
Only take the top 5 into account when you look at lol Utah PR

You are 9th, And Tsuteto is far from top 10 now. He's 20 something or so. Also, your games with Tsuteto are usually really close, so saying he's bad is saying you are too.

 

[Alacion]

Blue Yoshi is a hero.

@Illmatic. Do you think Zelda is possibly -3 material vs. Peach? As long as Peaches are wary of her Up Smash and cancel her Din's with Nair she shouldn't be any trouble right?

 

[z00ted]

@Illmatic. Do you think Zelda is possibly -3 material vs. Peach? As long as Peaches are wary of her Up Smash and cancel her Din's with Nair she shouldn't be any trouble right?

Yeah, I actually do.
I've never had any trouble versus Zelda at all.

Consistent two or three stocks, but I don't know what most Zeldas think about it.
After I played Fuujin, he thought it was -3 as well.

 

[8Bitman]

LOL at R.O.B dropping even lower.

It only makes me better lol. XD

 

[_Kain_]

Illmatic when it came time to argue Peach vs Pikachu being your favor you agreed to it being even and now are saying your opinion is you win that MU

Is confuzzled

 

[Luigisama]

hmm so numbers can prevent a shoruyken. Ok then I'm truly very sorry if the creators of this MU chart get rage mail about Luigi and how these numbers must be wrong if he has a broken move like shoruyken.

 

[z00ted]

Illmatic when it came time to argue Peach vs Pikachu being your favor you agreed to it being even and now are saying your opinion is you win that MU

Is confuzzled

Yeah, I'm CRAZY.

It wouldn't make sense to keep it at even.
My record and other Peach's are just too strong.

I actually think it's one of Pikachu's worst matchups.

 

[Alacion]

Yeah, I actually do.
I've never had any trouble versus Zelda at all.

Consistent two or three stocks, but I don't know what most Zeldas think about it.
After I played Fuujin, he thought it was -3 as well.

It's all over the place. I think it's somewhere between -2 and -3. Some others think it's -1.

Quoting this because I'm not sure what to make of this:

Whatevs clearly these Zelda mains know way more about her than I do. Despite having played Peachkid, Dark.Peach, Mikey, Nicole, and Praxis before. And Having beat each of them.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

10 months and you guys still have 1/3rd of her the match ups wrong.

Can't say I'm surprised to be honest consider the flop of a panel.

oh mah gawd this/10

 

[z00ted]

It's all over the place. I think it's somewhere between -2 and -3. Some others think it's -1.

Quoting this because I'm not sure what to make of this:

Whatevs clearly these Zelda mains know way more about her than I do. Despite having played Peachkid, Dark.Peach, Mikey, Nicole, and Praxis before. And Having beat each of them.

Do as you will, the Zelda boards are less for Zelda mains than ponies lately anyway.

Riot and I are going to money match at Apex, similar to how Fuujin and I did at WHOBO 3.
We'll gain more insight there.

Zelda may post a threat against a more defensive (campy) Peach, but against a really aggressive and fast Peach... I don't feel like she has anything to ward it off.

Depends on the playstyle.

 

[Alacion]

Riot and I are going to money match at Apex, similar to how Fuujin and I did at WHOBO 3.
We'll gain more insight there.

Zelda may post a threat against a more defensive (campy) Peach, but against a really aggressive and fast Peach... I don't feel like she has anything to ward it off.

Depends on the playstyle.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking too, but Zelda does have some nice hitboxes. Peach's moves do have some nice priority, but almost all of Zelda's moves are transcendent and disjointed...

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[z00ted]

I think our fair and bair can actually beat Zelda's Up-Smash if properly spaced.

 

[Alacion]

I think our fair and bair can actually beat Zelda's Up-Smash if properly spaced.

I can definitely see Fair... not totally sure about bair unless it's a punish.

Aside: I think it's really sad that Peach's nair, fair, bair, uair, dair, dash attack, parasol, and toad can all cancel Din's Fire...

 

[8Bitman]

Ehh whatever, this is what I think the R.O.B MU chart should be. Call me dumb, IDC, after playing R.O.B for almost 4 years, this is what I have gotten out of it.

I feel each Individual spread should be created by a pro at that character, or the best of that character. Some of the OSWFMUCv2.0 choices are just ********.

The Chart:


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

My Opinion:


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

There are some MU's I feel a bit iffy on, but I feel this is reasonable.