Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Alacion]

Imo the ideal panel would be Ed, DM, Fuu, and Riot.

 

[Fuujin]

Riot and I. Not saying Ed shouldn't be on there but he doesn't even use her for all the MUs and when he does he tends to overrate them. Idk about DM, this is the 2012 chart, not 2009.

 

[Yikarur]

Delta you suck for thinking Diddy is a -2 for Yoshi.
step your item game up!

 

[PMC66]

Mario -1 against Lucas? it's either even or Mario's favor, Mario's got back air and slightly better range than Lucas, Killing it's pretty long on both sides, Lucas has a better recovery but Mario has better gimp options thanks to his Fludd and Cape.

I know i'm being basic but really i know Mario's trash and all but you could at least get his MUs right no offense I think this chart is alot better than V.1s and your about 70% accurate overall maybe but the sheer inaccuracy in alot of Mario's Mus is completely and utterly staggering.

Edit sorry read it wrong -3 is close enough for MK V Mario it's been a long day for me

 

[Judo777]

Um Ed is probably at least the second best Zelda in the nation. He definitely belongs on any Zelda panel. I trust Ed is smart enough to not comment on MU's he doesn't know.

 

[8Bitman]

^^^ This ^^^

 

[Alacion]

The thing about Ed is that he plays Zelda well and actually does contribute unlike the rest of the panelists who haven't posted in at least half a year or more. He's a very respectable player.

 

[8Bitman]

Ed da bess!

 

[Fuujin]

I agree, but cour you and I both know he tends to overrate Zelda in match ups.
That coupled with my last post about him not even using her in all the match ups still leaves the Zelda panel lacking.

 

[8Bitman]

Fine, then he will help with MU's that he uses her for, and you and Riot will help with MU's that he doesn't. A few MU's are still MU's non the less.

 

[Alacion]

I agree, but cour you and I both know he tends to overrate Zelda in match ups.
That coupled with my last post about hit not even using her in all the match ups still leaves the Zelda panel lacking.

Can't deny that. Ed can definitely contribute for any matchup (not to the same extent for each character), but the numbers he gives out are just wrong sometimes. (Eg. ROB being even, Pikachu being -1)

 

[Delta-cod]

Delta you suck for thinking Diddy is a -2 for Yoshi.
step your item game up!

I just got called out.

Sadly I must accept it because my item game is trash.

 

[8Bitman]

Awwww, I was expecting an Egg Fight... *Sigh*

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Next MU chart I'll try to make ROB even 8bitman. *****es don't know about 8bitman.

 

[Fuujin]

Then I find out some of the match ups weren't even discussed like Zelda vs Peach.
Lol nice job BBR.

 

[8Bitman]

Next MU chart I'll try to make ROB even 8bitman. *****es don't know about 8bitman.

XD Thanks Esam, made my day! LOL

 

[san.]

@san: She's pretty mean at edgeguarding him. Would it be alright if you went more in depth about her having a hard time getting around his aerials?

I disagree. She can throw some easily avoidable turnips, and even if one is about to hit Ike, Ike's up B can just super armor or just plain defeat it.
I think Peach is susceptible to offstage fairs and reverse aethers, so I think both could potentially have trouble offstage if they are unfamiliar.

Anyways, it's hard for peach to really challenge aerials if she is in the air. Ike has to miss and misspace (holding towards peach), and even then he will be getting hit by mostly fair, which is double-edged for Peach. Peach doesn't really have much defensive measures in the air against it.

All of Ike's aerials beats all of Peaches or they may often times trade (which is not good for Peach). Fair and bair frame traps air dodges to the ground, and nair/uair lasts way too long for her to want to air dodge them.

Peach is much more effective playing a grounded approach with glide tosses out of shield, very low floats, etc. If Peach tries to use an aerial, she'll have no choice but to try to dodge all of those aerials. Peach can gain a lot of damage that way because she has a low % chaingrab on Ike and she has low-mid % strings on him. Floating low and staying near the ground still provides her with sufficient options in the MU, since they can beat out Ike's jab1/avoid and punish tilts and pressure his spacing, although they still need to watch out for kicks(jab2) and aerials.

 

[Orion*]

Then I find out some of the match ups weren't even discussed like Zelda vs Peach.
Lol nice job BBR.

how about we just get rid of the character next panel anyway, pretty useless other than sometimes getting kills for lazy sheik mains

 

[Dakpo]

stages for olimar: (IMO) Castle siege and Lylat

Pretend Brinstar is banned by the olimar, do you have any other strong CPs?

My mistake about jab, i just lumped it with the rest of ZSS's unsafe moves.

castle i can understand, but lylat?

lol if you ban brinstar then PS2 or FD

 

[Kewkky]

LOL, please explain how ninjalink, MrEh and DM are the best and the brightest for Zelda?
I'm dying to hear this.

How about I answer your question with two questions:

1) why don't you ever make a big deal about DM not being Zelda rep in the BBR? Why wait until NOW when the chart's done? I see your sig, but no one has ever mentioned anything but you, and only now do I see you raising hell once everything's pretty much done.

2) why don't YOU step forward and do something about it? If you can find the balls to volunteer yourself for future projects or make yourself more well-known as a knowledgeable person around SWF rather than someone who complains a lot, you could end up repping Zelda better than him if you truly believe he sucks at it.

Complaining is nice and all, I don't mind it at all... Until they start criticizing and saying they can do a better job yet doing the bare minimum to get what they want instead of going all out to make your goals happen. You didn't even apply for the BBR for better Zelda rep. So much for doing a better job, huh?


Here's a straight answer to your question by the way; those in the panel were selected by DarkMusician and approved by Marc. DM is supposed to know who's best for Zelda right now, and trusting he knows, his choices were approved. Who are we to question the Zelda rep on his Zelda experience when no one has complained about his knowledge? All WE want to do is rep our charcter properly and give him adequate MUs in the MU Chart, only one who has to worry about Zelda at that point is the Zelda rep, or the leaders if there is none.


Good enough answers, Fuujin?

 

[Matador]

Mario -1 against Lucas? it's either even or Mario's favor, Mario's got back air and slightly better range than Lucas, Killing it's pretty long on both sides, Lucas has a better recovery but Mario has better gimp options thanks to his Fludd and Cape.

I know i'm being basic but really i know Mario's trash and all but you could at least get his MUs right no offense I think this chart is alot better than V.1s and your about 70% accurate overall maybe but the sheer inaccuracy in alot of Mario's Mus is completely and utterly staggering.

Edit sorry read it wrong -3 is close enough for MK V Mario it's been a long day for me

You have to take a look at this match-up specifically. Yeah, Mario MAY have a better gimp game than Lucas (debatable. Lucas's PKT is pretty good vs Mario offstage...better and safer than what Mario has vs Lucas offstage), and Bair IS good vs some of his approaches, but Mario can't really fireball approach at all vs Lucas due to magnet. His fullhop dair beats a lot of Mario's aerial approaches cleanly and does like 23%...and is a potential KO set-up.

His tether grab makes spacing Fsmash difficult (similar to Mario vs Olimar) and caping PKfire does absolutely nothing as far as countering his zoning game...the attack vanishes too quickly.

There's just a ton of little things that add up to make the match-up feel less than even for Mario...I rarely hear of top Marios beating top Lucas players either...it's usually the other way around.

 

[Vinylic.]

2) why don't YOU step forward and do something about it? If you can find the balls to volunteer yourself for future projects or make yourself more well-known as a knowledgeable person around SWF rather than someone who complains a lot, you could end up repping Zelda better than him if you truly believe he sucks at it.

I second this question very very much.
Because he hasn't done much to show how the mu should appear.

 

[Alacion]

To be fair though, he didn't know who was on the panel until recently (and maybe the fact that a panel even existed). I can vouch for the fact that he is one of the primary contributors to the Zelda boards. He contributed to the Zelda guide and matchup thread as well as maintaining a tournament thread (which has been abandoned by DM).

 

[Kewkky]

Yet he's here complaining about stuff that won't affect how Zelda plays. If he wanted to make a difference in how people do things, it's a much more effective option to join and change from the inside, than stay outside and egg what you don't like, expecting people to take you seriously. Even if he didn't know about panels, joining the BBR for better rep would have been a good idea, EVERYONE knows we were doing another MU Chart, and the list of current members in the BBR is there for all to see in the BBR thread.

 

[Alacion]

Yet he's here complaining about stuff that won't affect how Zelda plays. If he wanted to make a difference in how people do things, it's a much more effective option to join and change from the inside, than stay outside and egg what you don't like, expecting people to take you seriously. Even if he didn't know about panels, joining the BBR for better rep would have been a good idea, EVERYONE knows we were doing another MU Chart, and the list of current members in the BBR is there for all to see in the BBR thread.

I agree. But given the fact he's been banned twice and is infamous as a troll, I can't see him joining the BBR. It's a shame though, Fuujin takes a unique stance in Zelda's matchups and I would have liked to see how his hypothetical contributions would have shaped Zelda's MUs.

With the recent small boost in interest for Zelda, partly due to matchup discussions and the latest European videos, perhaps people will think more highly of her.

 

[Kewkky]

Well that would be his fault then. Easy to fix, too: don't get any more infractions.

 

[Hippieslayer]

ZSS/DDD Matchup should be -1 not -2. I've just never seen anything that would motivate a -2 tbh.

 

[Doc King]

One mistake I've noticed is how the chart lists Peach vs. MK as a -2 when the individual thing says it's a -3.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Delta you suck for thinking Diddy is a -2 for Yoshi.
step your item game up!

I just got called out.

Sadly I must accept it because my item game is trash.

Maybe it's just a few of us that don't have that hard of a time with items.

 

[z00ted]

Peach utterly annihilates Zelda, I'm surprised you think Peach:Samus is +1 Ill, I always thought you said it was even in your opinion? Peach:ROB...meh dunno much about that, Peach:Ike as 0 is fine (it's kind of stage dependant), Peach:DK is 0 imo...

I do really well against Xyro when I play him.
I also beat NOID pretty convincingly when we money matched (although it should be noted that he didn't have a lot of significant amount of experience in the matchup).

I consider them both top level Samus players.

I don't feel as threatened as I do against Ike or Kirby, or any other of the even matchups for that matter.

Samus is low tier and not a very strong character.

As for Donkey Kong, I just feel like it's an easier Game and Watch.

Both characters survive to pretty insane percentages against Peach, and have extremely strong kill moves.. but they are perfectly manageable to avoid as long as you don't take too many risks. A safe Peach that just hits a bunch and then retreats to start camping does fairly well in this matchup, in my opinion. Donkey Kong is really easy to pressure and combo on.. you just have to be a bit safe and not get too crazy. Greed, which results in Peach dying early is why I've always considered this matchup to be even. If you just play smart, it's apparent that Peach has more safe options and better killing approaches.

Ya know just let Ill play Riot in his MM.
I feel like I've had to explain this like 3 times already.
Basically aggresive Peach puts on some of the best shield pressure from the air in the game IMO.
Zelda(like ZSS) has very poor OOS options other than her d smash. So basically Peach can just aggressivly go in on Zelda without any of her options being threatened.
What's Zelda supposed to do against a correctly spaced short hopped d air thats auto canceled into a grab/jab?
What options does she have that seem to work better than Ganon or Falcon?(inb4 killpower, just an FYI if Ganon wasn't the obvious case, raw kill power by its self only goes so far in this game.)
PLEASE let me know since so many of you seem to think you know this MU better than ILL and I and maybe I won't get ***** in our next MM.

I honestly don't even know if I'm great at the matchup or not.
All I do is just play however I want and it works very well against all Zeldas I play.
Like you said, an aggressive Peach just destroys Zelda. That's my playstyle in a nutshell if my opponent allows me to pull it off. Sadly for Zelda, it's very hard for her not to allow it to happen.

I'm not saying you were doing anything wrong Fuujin (you're actually really good), but I wouldn't be surprised if Riot just does something different defense wise that changes both of our opinions on the matchup.

I'm going to try my hardest though

I'm going to be honest i think a lot of issues with MU charts is top level players not realizing how freaking good they are at the game and so it skews MU's in their favor.

I actually had to retract my opinion from last MU chart concerning Yoshi (which I always used to think was +1 for Sheik from experience) but I had to retract it because I have recently thought that perhaps I am just a lot better than any of the Yoshis I have played AT THE SPECIFIC MU (not in general) due to it being my most played MU. So I thought maybe my opinion was biased and I needed to sit this one out.

I think a lot of top level players don't realize how much of an edge they have on most people and it messes up the charts some.

This is a really good post.

Illmatic, what experiences have you had with R.O.B? I feel it is in our favor.


1:

Honestly, it could be even.

Offstage - ROB has the advantage, but I don't feel as though it is extremely significant.

His fair works very well at pressuring us because of our terrible airdodge and floaty weight, as well as his u-air and nair which work on killing us or keeping us up there. He does a great job on reading our parasol, peach bomb, and or float because of the lengthy amount of time he is able to stay offstage with Peach and the extremely deceptive duration of his bair. He also has two great projectiles to shoot at her to disable some of her recovery options. You really want to focus on abusing Peach's terrible airdodge by continuously sending her in the air. This is where ROB excels in the matchup.

Onstage - Peach has the advantage.

ROB has a pretty poor blindspot against Peach's dair and his stature doesn't help his case against our dair either. Our ground floated nairs and bairs cover a lot of his rolling options due to his size and mobility. We have a more mobile projectile and can pressure his shield with ease.

Counterpicking is fairly even, but I feel as though Peach can work Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise a bit more efficiently.

Halberd would probably be your best bet as a counterpick against Peach.

What Ikes do Peaches fight to think it's +1? I think Peach has a hard time getting around Ike's aerials and Peach is one of the easiest characters to jab->utilt, enough of a distraction to truly focus on camping. Usually when I see Ike vs Peach the Ike usually wins or it's pretty close.

Ike can jab, powershield, and catch Peach's turnips with an aerial where it can still hit Peach after she throws.


Edit: To be more clear, I think it's Peach's overall pressure game, not purely camping, that helps her in the matchup.

I agree 100%.

Can I get a list of who took part in the Peach panel?

Myself, Nicole, King Beef, Praxis, Mikey Lenetia.
Praxis was extremely inactive.

I disagree. She can throw some easily avoidable turnips, and even if one is about to hit Ike, Ike's up B can just super armor or just plain defeat it.
I think Peach is susceptible to offstage fairs and reverse aethers, so I think both could potentially have trouble offstage if they are unfamiliar.

Anyways, it's hard for peach to really challenge aerials if she is in the air. Ike has to miss and misspace (holding towards peach), and even then he will be getting hit by mostly fair, which is double-edged for Peach. Peach doesn't really have much defensive measures in the air against it.

All of Ike's aerials beats all of Peaches or they may often times trade (which is not good for Peach). Fair and bair frame traps air dodges to the ground, and nair/uair lasts way too long for her to want to air dodge them.

Peach is much more effective playing a grounded approach with glide tosses out of shield, very low floats, etc. If Peach tries to use an aerial, she'll have no choice but to try to dodge all of those aerials. Peach can gain a lot of damage that way because she has a low % chaingrab on Ike and she has low-mid % strings on him. Floating low and staying near the ground still provides her with sufficient options in the MU, since they can beat out Ike's jab1/avoid and punish tilts and pressure his spacing, although they still need to watch out for kicks(jab2) and aerials.

This is a great writeup.
Ike will always be even, in my opinion.

 

[Dre89]

I don't see what good it does when people come in here and say 'X char is Y with Z' without explaining why.

 

[Flayl]

When the chart has all the mistakes corrected I plan on making a comparison of the tier list to matchups, results, popularity etc.

 

[Dabuz]

castle i can understand, but lylat?

lol if you ban brinstar then PS2 or FD

FD is good for olimar as well. PS2 is...a mystery for me.

Lylat is a good oli stage because the tilts don't mess him up as much as the rest of the cast and the platform placement makes his juggling game very strong. I can't imagine ZSS likes lylat much.

 

[NickRiddle]

FD is good for olimar as well. PS2 is...a mystery for me.

Lylat is a good oli stage because the tilts don't mess him up as much as the rest of the cast and the platform placement makes his juggling game very strong. I can't imagine ZSS likes lylat much.

She doesn't mind Lylat.
She doesn't particularly mind ANY stage.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I figured ZSS loved Lylat.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Personally I hate the tilting. If we are on the upper part, our dsmash is broken as ****, if we are lower, our dsmash is bad. The thing is, they can just wait til we are lower and take away a great tool. SideB because pretty bad and stuff too. Paralyzer unusable.

 

[Fuujin]

How about I answer your question with two questions:

1) why don't you ever make a big deal about DM not being Zelda rep in the BBR?

>>Implying I can see what DM does in the backroom.

Why wait until NOW when the chart's done?

You are aware of this but the chart is private until it's released right?

you could end up repping Zelda better than him

Lol sis I already do, anyone who's used Zelda twice within the last year reps Zelda more than him.

Until they start criticizing and saying they can do a better job yet doing the bare minimum to get what they want instead of going all out to make your goals happen.

The BBR is private, idg why you act like you don't know this.
It's sort of impossible for me to contribute when I can't even see these discussions.

Here's a straight answer to your question by the way; those in the panel were selected by DarkMusician and approved by Marc. DM is supposed to know who's best for Zelda right now, and trusting he knows, his choices were approved. Who are we to question the Zelda rep on his Zelda experience when no one has complained about his knowledge? All WE want to do is rep our charcter properly and give him adequate MUs in the MU Chart, only one who has to worry about Zelda at that point is the Zelda rep, or the leaders if there is none.

Well I guess Marc is just a flop for making these choices
I don't understand how you can think someone who doesn't even play the game anymore is an appropriate panel leader.

Notice he's not here defending himself, because hes INACTIVE.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

@san It's not so much the Turnip I'm thinking of, it's Toad if you don't reverse your Aether and Nair/Bair if you do that can knock you back from successfully grabbing the ledge/landing onstage. IIRC Peach can shield Aether and OoS Nair Ike when he reaches the peak of his Aether if he use it down low but I would have to check (she can also Up Smash him OoS out of Aether but no one is going to land onstage if Peach is just sat there lol)

Ah right I see - yea trying to tackle Ike aerially would be suicide lol (one of the reasons I would never go to Brinstar vs Ike). As you said, you're best off as Peach approaching from the ground with shield/Turnips and then applying close up pressure when you get up close

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@san It's not so much the Turnip I'm thinking of, it's Toad if you don't reverse your Aether and Nair/Bair if you do that can knock you back from successfully grabbing the ledge/landing onstage. IIRC Peach can shield Aether and OoS Nair Ike when he reaches the peak of his Aether if he use it down low but I would have to check (she can also Up Smash him OoS out of Aether but no one is going to land onstage if Peach is just sat there lol)

If you try to shield a reverse aether, you risk getting dragged off stage due to the direction it pushes you IIRC. And then of course, you're off stage. With no shield for obvious reasons. In the middle of aether right before it spikes.

Not necessarily a good idea. This is before taking in the possibility of shield poking as well.

 

[Ussi]

Toad in theory doesn't stop aether since you can SDI to ledge tech (I've done it before..) in an ideal tech, you'd aether again to punish the toad lag.