Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Dre89]

Why do people complain so much about mu ratios when they have no effect on actual matches?

These mu ratios have little relevence because they refer to high level play. Most people in this thread seem like mid level players who would still get boned by high level players even if they had the mu advantage.

And the ratios seem far too specific to matter in reality. People spend fifty pages debating Pika Mk is even or not when in reality the difference is clearly so minute that the better play will win most of the time.

These ratios are really only relevant to high level players, but they need it the least because they're the one determining the ratios.

Personally I think mus should either be considered counters, viable or countered. Viable means if you're the better player you'll win. Counter means even if you're not the better player you'll still win because the mu is that slanted, and countered is clearly the opposite.

That seems far more pragmatic and applicable to more players than the current system.

 

[Cassio]

For the most part, each panel had participation from their highest level players. I think its a bit more iffy going down to lower tiers only because fewer professionals play those characters, but there was still a good selection of panelists more or less.

 

[Vinylic.]

Well from the looks of the kirby chart, I've asked the kirbies on what they think:

[COLLAPSE="Huzzah!"]

Everything looks good - great, even - except for Falcon, Ganondorf, and Jigglypuff. I just can't let them be any less than a +3. Too bad it won't be changed. LOL. At least they put IC's at -2.

My thoughts: I'm only going to comment on the -2, and things I disagree on.

: (-2) Agreed...this is a difficult matchup, I dunno. It's given ICs have a really big upperhand, but it's not impossible to win.

: (-2) Agreed...there was a time where people thought this was an even matchup, but in reality, MK is just too good.

: (-2) I'm agreeing with this one because I hate the matchup so much. I used to be good at it, but now I absolutely hate playing against Olimar...don't want to go so in depth though.

: (-2) I disagree here only because GnW just destroys Kirby. Sure, he's predictable, but I don't think it matters here when he just beats Kirby. IDK, I need help on the matchup honestly, but it's just ridiculous how much I hate GnW to the point where I'll go a different character.

: (0) I do agree that Kirby has an advantage, but it should only be slightly. This matchup should be an even one, I don't think they both have any options that shut down each other, honestly. Kirby might be able to rack up damage quickly, but Ike kills Kirby early regardless, usual matchup really. If I were to relate it to any matchup, it would be like King DDD. Kirby has the slight advantage IMO, but it's considered even because of several reasons.

(2) If I'm seeing Lucas at 2 and Bowser at 1, then I think something is wrong here. Lucas has the constant PK fire at the very least, but Bowser just has killing potential, really. Bowser is an easy matchup considering his extremely large hitbox...and I think Kirby shuts down some of his better options, really.

: (3) I think it should have stayed at 3. This is probably the easiest matchup in the world for me. I dunno, I have never had trouble with Sheik, and I've never looked into the matchup or know how sheik works. The matchup is just incredibly easy, Zelda however is fine at 2.

(3) What? This is probably the easiest matchup next to sheik, I think Kirby completely shuts down Jiggly except for a few things. On top of that all of Kirby's smashes kills Jiggs mad early.

Everything else I'm fine with.

Meta Knight should be -3. He's not nearly as frustrating as 'easier' match-ups, but he definitely falls in the category of "-3: large disadvantage/hard countered". He's basically an S-tier Kirby.


I want to say Wario should be an even match-up, but it's just so easy for him to KO Kirby at practically any percent... so yeah, -1 looks about right. But then that makes me think Snake should be -2 because he has even better KO options on Kirby plus grenades and those massive damage-dealing tilts.


I think Zero Suit could be in the 0 match-up also. I admit that any advantage would probably go to ZSS (since she's faster and has better spacing options), so I'm not too against her being in the -1 category.


It seems like too many characters were dumped into this category. Diddy and DK should definitely go up.
ROB should be -1.
The rest are debatable or close enough to even that they can stay where they are.


These could be +3 in Kirby's favor. Falcon at least is arguably +3.
Even though Ganon's easy to combo and edgeguard he at least has massive hits to use on Kirby which could justify the +2 position he has instead of a full-blown +3.
There's so little representation for Jigglypuff that the match-up itself is in question. -2 seems like a good place for her... +3 just seems too much considering she's a Kirby clone with worse ground options and faster air control.

Things that counter Kirby: range, camping, Star KOs. Olimar has it all, plus a really good pivot grab.
Olimar counters Kirby.


G&W is a really tough match-up for Kirby because of his disjoints, killer Smash Attacks and excellent vertical recovery. It *is* possible for Kirby to get his hits in, but it requires excellent spacing and timing as well as knowing the proper responses. G&W is arguably -2.


I think it depends on the skill level of the players. At low levels of play Ike probably dominates (lots of smash attacks), above that it seems like Kirby has a slight advantage. Beyond that it's pretty even with both players having to rely on their most reliable attacks while throwing out mix-ups to take the other by surprise.


Agreed. Kirby has no grab release shenanigans on Lucas, otherwise it would make sense. I would even go so far to say that Ganon plays the 'powerhouse' role better against Kirby than Bowser does.


While Sheik might not be great against Kirby she's definitely not his easiest match-up. I'm not saying you don't have an easy time against Sheik, but I am going to ask which Sheik players you've played against. I'm going to say that Zelda's an easier match-up than Sheik is.

(3) What? This is probably the easiest matchup next to sheik, I think Kirby completely shuts down Jiggly except for a few things. On top of that all of Kirby's smashes kills Jiggs mad early.
Sure I'll agree that Kirby has a lot of good options to use against Jigglypuff... but I don't think you should bother mentioning landing Smash attacks on people as a main basis of match-ups. XD

I was thinking that :falcobrawl: should be in -1.

But I feel as if he's between 0 and -1.

I think I'd be fine with a -0.5
XD

Great great great! I don't really mind the numbers they give on our + matches, we win and thats it, hah. The list chart looks right on to me except for maybe one match.

I think Wario is an even match-up. I see many a reckless Kirby just get ***** by getting fooled by Wario's jump-at-you-double jump-away-from you tactics. Up tilt and back airs are beautiful in this match-up (thank you Kewkky). As long as you stay away from being on top of him in air and being aware of your damage and your position from him, you can live/avoid most of his KO moves.

G&W is no less than a -1. Yeah, he's annoying but keep a cool head. His b-air is easily DI-able and punished. Our tilts are faster and clank with his smashes. One has to just worry about not getting grabbed and staying grounded.

Marth is no less than -1 and optimistically I feel it's even. What Jo-Wii said is right, b-air does beat f-air (depending who swung first). It's amazing once you find the right timing and spacing! He's KO'ed at early percents and his up-b carries RCO lag, which sets up great for a KO. Heck we can gimp him and edgehog him. Yeah, he can KO us early... If he tippers but meh.

Other than that, it's about time Snake got bunked down to -1.

Well you see, this video here is what basically makes snake -1.
http://youtu.be/9NkiY8YY5RE?t=3m46s



And it's good to know that kirby wouldn't have much trouble as the mu is from -2 to +2.
It's more accurate that way.

From the looks of it, everything seems about right. Maybe a few people that could be argued up or down a number but I see enough evidence for this chart's standings to say it's mostly, if not completely, fair.

I'd personally lobby for Marth to be a 0, Fox to be a 2, and Falcon to be a 3 - but that's simply my thoughts on specific match-ups. I can see why they're at where there at though, and where majority would lean towards one number vs another.

Good job Kirby chart people.

[/COLLAPSE]

It sums up that we're good. So we're not gonna get much arguments, which makes me .

====

Saved this quote for last for thought of the year:

Here's my thoughts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xnyqSVcr0o&feature=player_embedded

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

The G&W chart is pretty much perfect, who was in charge of his MUs this time?

 

[Neon!]

DK moved up 2 positions on the tier list yet lost 8 points in this chart (more than anyone else) theres something wrong here.

Characters like Ice climbers, marth and olimar all have extremely optimistic ratings because they had top players arguing against lesser skilled players (like myself)

Occasionally players would propose a rediculous rating for the matchup and then agree only to meet halfway which has skewed a few of the ratings. (not reffering to our argument Reflex) Also realize that this rating system is flawed, there should be at least 6 points of difficulty (including 0) to better seperate the matchups. For exmaple, Dk's matchup with Pit is realisitcally a -1.5 for us with the current rating system and the Ice climbers a -2.5. They show up with the same rating where there really should be a 1 point difference.

edit: also realized that the chart says peach vs mk is -2 while the individual spread says -3. I know that the peaches agreed to -3 so that should be changed.

 

[san.]

I felt a lot of Ike's -1s are 0s (and maybe Ness is 0, slight advantage), but I was like that with the last MU chart anyways.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Current Chart:


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

My opinion:


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

Hmm.. I agree on most of what Illmatic changed here but I have slight changes from what I have experienced myself..


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

I don't think Peach has that much of an adv over zelda... I do use zelda here and there (nothing serious like in tournies) but maybe it's because I main peach I have a slightly easier time agaisnt her? It is an uphill battle mind you... but I don't believe shes a strong counter to zelda.

Spamus... I've always viewed it as even.. they both suck at koing.. and both can camp each other oddly enough. I don't think peach has a significant adv even with her combos on Spamus.. mainly as Spamus can out right live far longer than peach if her DI is fine.

After playing HolyNightmares R.O.B. I have viewed this MU as slightly in his favor.. but I can agree with there being no actual favor. Peach def has it down when it comes to racking damage on ROB the main issue here is despite ROBs huge size.. he never seems to want to die.. haha even without his momentum cancel I had issues Koing his ROB because of Peachs lack of ko power. He always seemed to get the final hit before me. However.. once she gets a lead.. if played right she can keep it and win the MU fairly easier.

For Ike... now that I'm a campier player.. really the MU is far too easy. Camp Ike... Camp Ike.. Camp Ike.. it's really boring in the end.. but camping gets the job done and far too easily.

DK I would love to say is in Peachs favor... but the fact a 9 wind can ko her at like 50/60% makes this MU stupid. Also.. DK doesn't like to die lmao. I have to say despite Peach being 'better' in the MU the fact DK can bring it right back in 2 seconds... makes the MU even.

 

[z00ted]

Yep, that's what 99% of Peaches probably agree to also.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Peach utterly annihilates Zelda, I'm surprised you think Peach:Samus is +1 Ill, I always thought you said it was even in your opinion? Peach:ROB...meh dunno much about that, Peach:Ike as 0 is fine (it's kind of stage dependant), Peach:DK is 0 imo...

Hmm

I would quite like to see the Peach/Pikachu, Peach/Fox and Peach/Olimar write ups if possible please

Edit: Oh and the Peach/Falco one as well if that's not too much trouble

 

[Kewkky]

Well from the looks of the kirby chart, I've asked the kirbies on what they think:

Huzzah!

It sums up that we're good. So we're not gonna get much arguments, which makes me .

====

Saved this quote for last for thought of the year:

Nice! Me and the Kirby panel did our best to come to an agreement and in the end we were only iffy about a few MUs, but only because we had to compromise or give the opponent the win during the discussions. On MUs where I had a different opinion than the other panelists I told them that they could argue their case and see if they could keep the MU they wanted (like Ganon at +3, I saw it as a +2 while others saw it easier), but when discussion time came around, only one panelist would show up and be biased or lacking MU experience... So we had to lose the discussion.

Anyway, shout out to Triple R, Kappy, falln, and KingToon for helping out!

 

[Fuujin]

Ya know just let Ill play Riot in his MM.
I feel like I've had to explain this like 3 times already.
Basically aggresive Peach puts on some of the best shield pressure from the air in the game IMO.
Zelda(like ZSS) has very poor OOS options other than her d smash. So basically Peach can just aggressivly go in on Zelda without any of her options being threatened.
What's Zelda supposed to do against a correctly spaced short hopped d air thats auto canceled into a grab/jab?
What options does she have that seem to work better than Ganon or Falcon?(inb4 killpower, just an FYI if Ganon wasn't the obvious case, raw kill power by its self only goes so far in this game.)
PLEASE let me know since so many of you seem to think you know this MU better than ILL and I and maybe I won't get ***** in our next MM.

 

[Judo777]

I'm going to be honest i think a lot of issues with MU charts is top level players not realizing how freaking good they are at the game and so it skews MU's in their favor.

I actually had to retract my opinion from last MU chart concerning Yoshi (which I always used to think was +1 for Sheik from experience) but I had to retract it because I have recently thought that perhaps I am just a lot better than any of the Yoshis I have played AT THE SPECIFIC MU (not in general) due to it being my most played MU. So I thought maybe my opinion was biased and I needed to sit this one out.

I think a lot of top level players don't realize how much of an edge they have on most people and it messes up the charts some.

Also Espy your killing me lol with your comments on Sonic.

 

[SFA Smiley]

We die early to everyone... and especially snake but in that MU to juggle him; to get him in the air for the juggle; you have Metal Gear(pun intended) you way in which is easier said that done in most cases; it's like thing from A to C and not thinking about B in the middle

Getting Snake in the air is not hard. If you get him offstage he's going to recover high. He's in the air. If you grab him, you U-throw, he's in the air, if he jumps and you Up-b him, he's in the air. Approaching is hard but he has just as hard a time hitting the ground as we do approaching him. God forbid the stage has platforms we can use. Most GW players and as far as I can tell, snake's who have actually played good GWs feel this way. Everybody has a hard time approaching snake, he's designed that way, it's a matter of who can get the better payoff once they approach and GW gets a high payoff.

 

[8Bitman]

Illmatic, what experiences have you had with R.O.B? I feel it is in our favor.


1:

Why do people complain so much about mu ratios when they have no effect on actual matches?

Please don't say this was directed at me.

 

[Seagull Joe]

For the most part, each panel had participation from their highest level players. I think its a bit more iffy going down to lower tiers only because fewer professionals play those characters, but there was still a good selection of panelists more or less.

The panel's only high level player on it that was active was Esam.

 

[8Bitman]

^^^ This ^^^

 

[DUB]

Is ROB vs. Pika -1 for R.O.B. the general consencus based off the panels then? I've heard mixed answers from both sides.

 

[Kewkky]

The panel's members were the panel leader's responsibility. If you have a gripe with the MUs, it may be that you're wrong, that the panel leader isn't the best and the brightest, or that the panel members the leader chose took the project for granted and went inactive after the first month or two and let it all go downhill. It's as much the BBR's fault as much as it is the people we invited's fault.

Also, keep in mind that we did send invitations to those who we agreed are the best and brightest. People both ignored and rejected our invitations, and others simply didn't respond due to inactivity. On some panels, we resorted to whatever means we felt were best for such occasions, usually meaning we filled spots with higher-leveled players who vouched they had the skill and knowledge to fill in the spots.

 

[san.]

What Ikes do Peaches fight to think it's +1? I think Peach has a hard time getting around Ike's aerials and Peach is one of the easiest characters to jab->utilt, enough of a distraction to truly focus on camping. Usually when I see Ike vs Peach the Ike usually wins or it's pretty close.

Ike can jab, powershield, and catch Peach's turnips with an aerial where it can still hit Peach after she throws.


Edit: To be more clear, I think it's Peach's overall pressure game, not purely camping, that helps her in the matchup.

 

[8Bitman]

OMGAWD IT'S SAN! I haven't seen you online in foeva! :3

Is ROB vs. Pika -1 for R.O.B. the general consencus based off the panels then? I've heard mixed answers from both sides.

ESAM and I believe it is Even.

IDK just saying....

 

[san.]

School prevented me from being online, which inadvertently also prevented me from contributing to the MU chart, so it's also my first time looking at it.

 

[8Bitman]

Sorry San. =(


Personally I think R.O.B should be at least 4 Ranks higher. I feel he should be above Shiek, Shielda, Peach, and Wolf. R.O.B beats and/or goes even with all of them. R.O.B is bad, but not as bad as people portray him, there just aren't enough "GREAT" R.O.B's out there to show anything.

 

[Deleted member]

Can I get a list of who took part in the Peach panel?

 

[Cassio]

The panel's only high level player on it that was active was Esam.

Why point out pikas when wolfs and pretty much every panel had the same group consistency? If this was an issue for you next time Ill request ESAM use his personal MU chart to determine our ratios

Is ROB vs. Pika -1 for R.O.B. the general consencus based off the panels then? I've heard mixed answers from both sides.

ROBs were more strongly for -1 than pikas, although there were some mentions of -2 from both sides.

 

[8Bitman]

ROBs were more strongly for -1 than pikas, although there were some mentions of -2 from both sides.

O-o Seriously?

 

[Cassio]

8bitman you should consider that youre not the only decent ROB. If you have an issue you should make sure your opinion is shared by your fellow mains. This is a MU thats actually been played more than most. Chibo vs pikpik, Brick vs T0mmy, stealth vs Jamntoast. ESAMs even played stingers before and beat him kinda bad. My personal opinion from experience is that its even, but at some point theres just information and other opinions from experienced players that go against it.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Can I get a list of who took part in the Peach panel?

I would assume at minimum it's the BBR members who use Peach which iirc is KB, Praxis, Mikey and Nicole plus Illmatic

@san: She's pretty mean at edgeguarding him. Would it be alright if you went more in depth about her having a hard time getting around his aerials?

 

[8Bitman]

The same should be said for other Pikachus. I was more pointing toward the fact that they said it could be considered a -2. That just turns into good experiences with bad R.O.B's. Yes I understand where you think my basis is coming off of. But some of these decisions are just baffling. If it isn't even, then is it a -1. Never should it be considered that deep in Pikachu's favor. R.O.B has too much Range over Pikachu.

EDIT: Yeah that Stingers set is an exact replica of my very First set i ever had with ESAM, I was double 3-Stock. Then as I fought him in more tourney sets I did progressively better, because the MU became more understood. If both players KNOW the MU. It is Even, I had a feelingafter watching the set that Stingers had very little to no Pikachu EXP. ESAM uses R.O.B and understand the R.O.B MU, and I have played KPrime and ESAM many times before, plus a close friend of mine uses Pikachu and I helped him learn how to use him. So that taught me how he generally works.

 

[Fuujin]

Also, keep in mind that we did send invitations to those who we agreed are the best and brightest.

LOL, please explain how ninjalink, MrEh and DM are the best and the brightest for Zelda?
I'm dying to hear this.

 

[8Bitman]

Ed da bess!!!

 

[Alacion]

^You're probably have to take that up with DM since from what I can see the leader of each panel selects the other panelists. To be fair though, I was told he still plays Zelda from time to time (like yesterday) and you have to admit he *is* a good Zelda.

 

[Cassio]

I personally gathered opinions from other players whove played this MU, and as ESAM was on the panel his thoughts on ROB were heard. So yes, we did take into account the full spectrum of opinions. As I said if you have an issue with the ratio then bring it up with your fellow ROB pros, were certainly not excluding ESAM from giving his thoughts on the matter.

 

[8Bitman]

I shall go discuss it on le' R.O.B Boards, be back. :3

 

[Fuujin]

*was*
He's been inactive for like a year. And even if you do justify someone who hasnt used her in a year and someone who only uses her for some match ups, how do you justify mr.eh and ninjalink???

 

[8Bitman]

Yeah, get more people like ED, he uses her all around.

 

[Cassio]

Fuujin out of curiosity what is your ideal panel?

 

[Fuujin]

Except not.
I remember playing a Wario from his region and consistently beating him.
The dude then said how the only other person he knew who played Zelda was Ed, but that Ed never used her for the MU, so the Wario said he didn't know the MU.

 

[Fuujin]

Fuujin out of curiosity what is your ideal panel?

Gee I dunno, would it be too much to ask put the two guys that actually use her on there?

 

[Alacion]

I agree that those two aren't really justifiable and obviously I could imagine you and Riot to be much better panelists than those two. Also keep in mind Zelda is 2nd worst and regardless whether or not the Zelda panel is adequate, she is still a joke and is to be ignored.

There is this vid of DM which is the most recent I could find http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn5wALRw88k. It's a shame he doesn't even post anymore. I heard the Zelda boards were so delusional that he decided to stop posting there.

I really understand where you're coming from Fuujin though and wish that the Zelda panel was double checked. Perhaps the Zelda players that aren't panelists are wrong, but perhaps something needs to be considered when the non-panelist Zeldas disagree with over 1/3 of the matchups that the panelists agreed on.

 

[Cassio]

I mean tangible names. Because like, Ive seen you disqualify pretty much everyone who any common smasher would think is a good zelda player except yourself. So who's left?