john!
Smash Hero
Fixed it for ya
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-Darc-
Heir to the Monado
Yeah about how bad Kirby and Pichu are.
Also, I really hope you're joking about the Sheik/Zelda mix-up game.
No it's not. When you take the time to charge it up I'm going to jump behind you since I have a million years to react. If you hit me when it's not charged up I'm going to crouch cancel to **** it. If you miss I take nothing and you take like 3%. Having any added percent to Pichu is horrible since Pichu dies mad early.
Anybody who runs straight at Pichu/Luigi/Pichu charging their Forward b is an idiot.
You're going to have to explain why it's amazing to convince me.
otg
Smash Master
Sup Darc?
-Darc-
Heir to the Monado
Nm broseph. Wanna high five on how bad Kirby and Pichu are?
For discussion purposes let's laugh on how they die so early...
...wait I play Jiggs
For discussion purposes let's laugh on how they die so early...
...wait I play Jiggs
otg
Smash Master
High fives and lols all day. Jiggs doesn't really seem to die at low% nowadays. I'm kinda biased in my pichu loving tho, I do play with the "best.... pichu?" on the planet, Tunacasserole. Get at the kid.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
with a grin on my face.
if you dd around and falcon kick someone at the begin of the match do you think they will react expecting that?
really it's at higher percents and pichu only takes 1%. I'm also a Jack*** when I play but the only reason it would work is because it changes it's speed and it's oddness. think of pichu dding around to nair,nairr,nair you figure it out and pichu messes with you.
it's the randomness and speed change that would throw people off. Really any kind of random mind doesn't make sense.
ok take his game I play all you have to do is hit he back of your buddies hand and not get hit, simple right? it is but really trickly it's 100% reflexs, reads, and mindgames. Try this game some time it sounds dumb but you should be laughing by the end if both people play right. but if you are moveing your hands around trying to hit/avoid them then you start clapping they will be at a lost and not know what to do then you smack both backs off their hand's and they feel dumb.
random/distraction make powerful mindgames. walk into a room start messing with someone's head then BAM you smash your head into a wall and keep talking like nothing happened they will be so confused and lost, maybe even afraid. I've been messing wih people since 1st grade. In dodgeball I sucked at everything but dodgeing so I would get 2 balls roll one out and nail the kid who ran after it or they would force on me and get hit by someone esle.
randomness is powerful and makes dumb things that seem impossible totally possible
if you dd around and falcon kick someone at the begin of the match do you think they will react expecting that?
really it's at higher percents and pichu only takes 1%. I'm also a Jack*** when I play but the only reason it would work is because it changes it's speed and it's oddness. think of pichu dding around to nair,nairr,nair you figure it out and pichu messes with you.
it's the randomness and speed change that would throw people off. Really any kind of random mind doesn't make sense.
ok take his game I play all you have to do is hit he back of your buddies hand and not get hit, simple right? it is but really trickly it's 100% reflexs, reads, and mindgames. Try this game some time it sounds dumb but you should be laughing by the end if both people play right. but if you are moveing your hands around trying to hit/avoid them then you start clapping they will be at a lost and not know what to do then you smack both backs off their hand's and they feel dumb.
random/distraction make powerful mindgames. walk into a room start messing with someone's head then BAM you smash your head into a wall and keep talking like nothing happened they will be so confused and lost, maybe even afraid. I've been messing wih people since 1st grade. In dodgeball I sucked at everything but dodgeing so I would get 2 balls roll one out and nail the kid who ran after it or they would force on me and get hit by someone esle.
randomness is powerful and makes dumb things that seem impossible totally possible
-Darc-
Heir to the Monado
What is so random about the forward b. It might be random in the sense that you shouldn't be doing it, but once you start charging it it loses its "surprise factor" If you end up charging it up the opponent will know it's coming and can react to it accordingly. They shouldn't challenge it head on so they just camp platforms, get behind the Pichu or stay away from it until you let go then they dodge since the move is horrible.
Now it's random if you don't charge it since you can't really react to it that quickly. Now let's say you do hit them with it. What does it do? Nothing? If you had the chance of hitting the opponent with a quick forward b you should have been able to hit him with a much better move.
Now let's say you miss a non charged. Oh you get punished to hell since it has a million frames of lag.
Pichu's forward b as an approach or a "random" attack is dumb.
I'm not even going to go into how much better Falcon kick is than Pichu's forward b.
Now it's random if you don't charge it since you can't really react to it that quickly. Now let's say you do hit them with it. What does it do? Nothing? If you had the chance of hitting the opponent with a quick forward b you should have been able to hit him with a much better move.
Now let's say you miss a non charged. Oh you get punished to hell since it has a million frames of lag.
Pichu's forward b as an approach or a "random" attack is dumb.
I'm not even going to go into how much better Falcon kick is than Pichu's forward b.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
wiat wait waot you thought I was talking about suttin there charging side-B till I can't any longer? You honest to God thought I was talking about DDing around and fully charging that?
I'm sorry but yeah, wtf. Sorry but wow.
23 frames of lag from missing, but why the heck would you use any of pichu's self-smasge moves if you don't plan to do some form of damage, also smash side-B to max out how far it goes so it's a hair harder to avoid.
I'm sorry but yeah, wtf. Sorry but wow.
23 frames of lag from missing, but why the heck would you use any of pichu's self-smasge moves if you don't plan to do some form of damage, also smash side-B to max out how far it goes so it's a hair harder to avoid.
Please stop arguing with the best pichu main in the world. He clearly is an authority on the subject. He knows what he's talking about and you don't.
And in my experience, Pichu's side-b is best fully charged. You sit there charging it and they get cocky thinking its not gonna come and then: you release b for massive damage.
And in my experience, Pichu's side-b is best fully charged. You sit there charging it and they get cocky thinking its not gonna come and then: you release b for massive damage.
-Darc-
Heir to the Monado
Did you even read my post?
I covered all possibilities of Pichu's forward b. Charging and not charging.
Your precious side b is not going to hit every time. Its risks far weigh-out its rewards.
Edit: to ICG
Also, you better not be a troll.
I covered all possibilities of Pichu's forward b. Charging and not charging.
Your precious side b is not going to hit every time. Its risks far weigh-out its rewards.
Edit: to ICG
Also, you better not be a troll.
Rappster
Smash Ace
dude. what if icg was mango or somebody's alt?
pulling a two year epic troll on the rest of us?
-Darc-
Heir to the Monado
It would explain a lot of things LOL
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
Nope I really do use side-B every now and then, it's what makes me different. But as pichu your allreadly F***ed so you learn to work with it.
Sorry I think I mindgamed myself again, please forgive me.
rappster I would believe that because whoever this is clearly crazy enough to do that and gets on enough also. Plus WTFpichu who gives a crap about him peerfect troll bait. But no I;m me not you.
but if I was a troll I would spam this every where http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUobR4AyoiA watch it or you will hate yourself. freakin haters
Sorry I think I mindgamed myself again, please forgive me.
rappster I would believe that because whoever this is clearly crazy enough to do that and gets on enough also. Plus WTFpichu who gives a crap about him peerfect troll bait. But no I;m me not you.
but if I was a troll I would spam this every where http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUobR4AyoiA watch it or you will hate yourself. freakin haters
Nah man, it's Faab.
Xianglian
Smash Journeyman
this pichu discussion is making my face hurt
BluePeachy100
Smash Champion
Pichu *****. Stop hatin'[/notablackpursin]
Blame INSANE CARZY GUY.... that guy's insane and carzy, especially on youtube.
Blame INSANE CARZY GUY.... that guy's insane and carzy, especially on youtube.
Xianglian
Smash Journeyman
there i fixed it
BluePeachy100
Smash Champion
You wish I was black. Then I'd be good with Falco.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
No you should wish you had the powers of micheal jackson you could be black,white, and moonwalk like falcon LOL. Really the side-B stuff is just one of those things that's stupid that I do and I know when to do,I sometimes even edge gaurd with it. I just try not to use the same move over and over again so I try many new things.
this is what happens when I haven't talked about pichu for a long time, freakin pichu boards
this is what happens when I haven't talked about pichu for a long time, freakin pichu boards
MarioMariox2
Smash Ace
Maybe people hold projectile speed over melee range...?
She has an amazing projectile, that can lead to grabs, she has grab combos, and an amazing edge and offstage game. After marth gets her (or anyone who isn't a space animal or really heavy/falls fast) to mid percents, his combo game is gone, and he doesn't have many good finishers (F-smash has startup and is punishable, and his up B is very punishable if whiffed), meaning he has to go for grabs->edgeguard or poking with tilts until they die (at over 130%), and going for grabs means his beastly sword range isn't being used. On the other hand, shiek has a low percent chaingrab on most of the cast (replace cg w/ tech chase regrab for the other half), as well as mid percent combos leading to being offstage, and one of the best gimping games.
Every good person knows to not mess with sheik near the edge and to avoid getting grabbed by her. Her recovery is really bad against someone who is used to fighting her.
Also getting a grab with marth is not that hard. And you make it sound like thats how to play marth when being grab-dependent is only one style.
You talk up sheik a lot, but she doesn't have a lot of mobility on the ground or in the air. Using platforms to camp is hard because she doesn't have a move with priority that hits under her. Also her grab range is not that good and even her tech chases are hard to pull off (unless its falcon and then usually they're easy to follow).
Don't oversimplify each character so much, you just look ignorant when all you do is praise sheiks good things and don't even mention all her flaws. She gets waveshine grabbed, uthrown easily (yes its easy to shine sheik). Her tilts are good and lead to good combos, but they are mostly overrated because people run into them. Fair, bair, and nair are amazing. Needles are very useful, but by no means are they an amazing projectile. Maybe against falcon...
Marth is just a lot of hitboxes. You have to bait his moves (notably grab, utilt and usmash, and i he gets in the air above you: he can counter, side-b to slow his fall, and that's about it. Really they both have advantages and disadvantages, good and bad match-ups. At high level play, marth has got to be the better character though, because at high level play you have smart people playing with him. Sheik is good, but she doesn't have the priority and finishers that marth does. Marth also has his cg and mean edge game.
So its not black and white who's better, so let's be real and not pretend like it is.
BBQ°
Smash Champion
sup dude
I don't know much about Sheik's grab range but whenever I play as her, it seems like it's just a little worse than Marth's grab range.
Tech Chasing being "hard" is irrelevant. Tech Chasing is something you can learn and practice, so difficulty doesn't matter.
That would mean that Fox would have to approach Sheik, which is dangerous because Fox can get grabbed by Sheik if they smash DI the dair or nair (therefore avoiding the shine, and then grabbing), or Sheik can simply wavedash back and grab. Don't get me wrong, waveshine grab is legit as hell, but it's dangerous.
"Her tilts are mostly overrated because people run into them"
lolwtf. So people know how to avoid getting grabbed by sheik but they don't know how to not run into her tilts?
Needles are extremely useful against any character. I would say the projectile tier list is: falco's lasers, fox's lasers, peach's turnips, sheik's needles, doc's pills, etc. So out of all the projectiles in the game, Sheik has the 4th best. That's pretty close to amazing.
Also...
Yeah, he's got a chain grab. On Fox and Falco. Sheik can chain grab half the cast.
"mean edge game"? Sheik's edge game is better, mostly because of needles.
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I understand that Sheik has flaws, but you are overrating those flaws. Sheik is an all around better character than Marth. She's got better matchups, a better edge game, a better grab game, a more reliable way to get said grabs, and she's got a projectile.
You're contradicting yourself by saying "every good person knows to avoid getting grabbed by sheik", and then saying that getting a grab with marth is not that hard. I play Marth, it's hard to get a grab with him... people know how to avoid grabs from Marth. In theory, it's actually easier to grab with Sheik because of needles (shuffled needles into grab).
I don't see what you mean by saying "using platforms to camp is hard because she doesn't have a move with priority that hits under her." Camping platforms with Sheik is a legit strategy because of her needles.
I don't know much about Sheik's grab range but whenever I play as her, it seems like it's just a little worse than Marth's grab range.
Tech Chasing being "hard" is irrelevant. Tech Chasing is something you can learn and practice, so difficulty doesn't matter.
"She gets waveshine grabbed, uthrown easily"
That would mean that Fox would have to approach Sheik, which is dangerous because Fox can get grabbed by Sheik if they smash DI the dair or nair (therefore avoiding the shine, and then grabbing), or Sheik can simply wavedash back and grab. Don't get me wrong, waveshine grab is legit as hell, but it's dangerous.
"Her tilts are mostly overrated because people run into them"
lolwtf. So people know how to avoid getting grabbed by sheik but they don't know how to not run into her tilts?
Needles are extremely useful against any character. I would say the projectile tier list is: falco's lasers, fox's lasers, peach's turnips, sheik's needles, doc's pills, etc. So out of all the projectiles in the game, Sheik has the 4th best. That's pretty close to amazing.
Big wtf here. I don't see how "being a better character" has anything to do with smarter players using said character. That's like saying Pikachu is a better character than Ice Climbers because Axe is smarter than any other Ice Climbers player (a pretty bad example but that's the best I got). Also, Sheik has about the same representation as Marth (Amsah outplacing M2K at pound 4).
huh? Almost all of Sheik's attacks eventually combo into forward air, which sets up into a needle edgeguard or back air edgeguard. You can argue that this is similar for Marth as well, but after 120ish%, Marth has no real way to kill. He's got no combos at that percent, and most Marths end up getting a lucky hit that sets up into an edgeguard. Sheik at least has needles and can afford to be patient and camp while waiting for an opportunity. Marth ends up just getting poked around and projectiled. Sheik's dtilt and jab also combo into forward air at higher percents, and Marth doesn't have any of that.
Also...
Yeah, he's got a chain grab. On Fox and Falco. Sheik can chain grab half the cast.
"mean edge game"? Sheik's edge game is better, mostly because of needles.
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I understand that Sheik has flaws, but you are overrating those flaws. Sheik is an all around better character than Marth. She's got better matchups, a better edge game, a better grab game, a more reliable way to get said grabs, and she's got a projectile.
Nothing like smash bros theory early in the morning.
And needling > grab only works if they approach, and as you point out, the only people who need to are not her worst and not her most common matchups. And on platform stages, this technique becomes much less viable.
Tech chasing with sheik is really hard against ox and falco, and even top level sheiks mess it up. That's why you'll see them go for usmash or dash attack to rack up damage, because they can't tech chase perfectly forever. Human reflexes just aren't that good.
And I've never seen anyone smash DI an nair and avoid the shine, maybe I'm just not looking.
All I was trying to say that a really smart person playing marth is more effective than a really smart person playing sheik. That's just imho though, based on the thousands of videos I've watched and all the matchup guides I've read (and I used to main marth... lol now I hate him with a burning passion).
Alright then, it is hard to get a grab against any person, but marth does have a long inital dash animation and can pivot grab a lot easier than say, sheik, whose dash dance is a lot trickier and much shorter. I also feel like because marth can control your spacing so well because of his priority that he can force you into a lot of bad positions (on ledges, right near the ledge, into a roll) that sheik can't force you into. thus making a grab easier when you're forced to roll or do some other stupid thing.
And needling > grab only works if they approach, and as you point out, the only people who need to are not her worst and not her most common matchups. And on platform stages, this technique becomes much less viable.
There is camping on one platform (see m2k in the beginning of most matches w/ platforms; he forces people to approach and probably frustrates them a little as well). then there is platform camping. Going from platform to platform to force your opponent to jump in the air and get out of position or something. Sheik can't go from platform to platform well because none of her moves hit below her with priority. Sure you can stay on one platform, but what that takes is for someone to run under the platform, shield the needles when you inevitably sh and throw them, and then you are over them on a platform. That's bad.
It's definitely smaller than marths. Whenever I play marth I feel like his is huge and sheiks feels tiny. Idk about that one though.
So jc shining til you break someone's shield or perfect drillshine shield pressure being hard is irrelevant then. Too bad nobody can do either of those consistently because they are way too technically demanding. If someone could, then fox breaks the game.
Tech chasing with sheik is really hard against ox and falco, and even top level sheiks mess it up. That's why you'll see them go for usmash or dash attack to rack up damage, because they can't tech chase perfectly forever. Human reflexes just aren't that good.
You don't have to approach to get a shine. And why drill anyway? You can approach with running shine to. You can spotdodge shine. follow a tech, and shine. And at low to mid percents, late nair shine works on sheik and can't be CC punished.
And I've never seen anyone smash DI an nair and avoid the shine, maybe I'm just not looking.
No, people do know how to avoid them a lot. That's why sheiks don't win major tournaments, because good aren't going to run in recklessly and give sheik an easy tilt. She has to work or them at high levels. N00bs fail at everything, I'm talking about high level play, where sheik becomes less of an unstoppable force and people think while they play.
And to that I would say: ok, but doesn't that just say that there aren't a lot of amazing projectiles in this game? Sheiks needles are ok but they aren't game-breaking (depending on the match up probably: vs falcon if she didn't have them, it'd be a lot harder).
Why look at one tourney or an extreme case to prove a point?
All I was trying to say that a really smart person playing marth is more effective than a really smart person playing sheik. That's just imho though, based on the thousands of videos I've watched and all the matchup guides I've read (and I used to main marth... lol now I hate him with a burning passion).
The problem with this is that at mid and high percents, sheik can get a kill and edgeguard off of a dash attack or ftilt (usually). But at low to mid percents, marth can get gimps, chaingrabs, guaranteed tippers from uthrow, and stupid crap like that. The whole thing is also very stage dependent, because at some percents on each stage, character can just platform tech a grab or a ftilt. They both have good kill setups, yes.
No, he has a tech chase on fox, falco, falcon (I guess he has a chaingrab at like 130 % though, but what's the point?). Cg on yoshi, sheik, ganon (<<until like 60%?), and bowser. Maybe I'm missing some, but its not half the cast.
I really don't think sheik is better. You should definitely try and play her seriously (if youre allowed to pick up a secondary). I think when you play sheik you realize her limits a lot more. But I suppose the same could be said for me, cause I haven't played marth in about half a year.
BBQ°
Smash Champion
lol, I honestly can't respond to many of your counter arguments because I don't use Sheik and don't have the experience, so I guess I'll leave it up to someone else to agree with you or to prove you wrong.
And SleepyK will kill me if I pick up a secondary. Especially Sheik. Lololol.
And SleepyK will kill me if I pick up a secondary. Especially Sheik. Lololol.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
@ God, sheik is better than marth.
BluePeachy100
Smash Champion
Everyone should know this by now.
I'm also sigging this because Mew2King just told God he was wrong.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
LMAO. its in the Bible somewhere
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I dislike how I read "sheik is limited" <__<
So my marth got taken to 1 stock and then I used Sheik and on the same stage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QILgpiojn8w&feature=related
and I'm considered a Marth main.
I really feel Sheik is better.
So my marth got taken to 1 stock and then I used Sheik and on the same stage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QILgpiojn8w&feature=related
and I'm considered a Marth main.
I really feel Sheik is better.
Archangel
Smash Hero
It's math.
E=R2
This has always been the formula for smash. Effort=**** Squared.
. Seriously. Match ups can be tilted or bent with more or less effort. As for Sheik. Anyone who uses her with at least mediocre skills will notice it requires less effort to **** with her then it does with Marth or even fox/falco. Fox for instance. When you see combo's like Nair>l-cancel>Shine>S-hop out of shield>Nair...etc>d-attack>Usmash. It's awesome to do and to watch. However it doesn't compare to the ease of Grabbing D-throw>R@PE!!! or Jab>tilt combos usually ended with Fsmash. Saying sheik is limit makes me chuckle. It may seem that way because she doesn't have alot of overly technical stuff except for Vanish-edgehog or canceling needles. However she ***** pretty much everyone of her peers with the least amount of effort. Which makes her overall better by default I guess..
E=R2
This has always been the formula for smash. Effort=**** Squared.
. Seriously. Match ups can be tilted or bent with more or less effort. As for Sheik. Anyone who uses her with at least mediocre skills will notice it requires less effort to **** with her then it does with Marth or even fox/falco. Fox for instance. When you see combo's like Nair>l-cancel>Shine>S-hop out of shield>Nair...etc>d-attack>Usmash. It's awesome to do and to watch. However it doesn't compare to the ease of Grabbing D-throw>R@PE!!! or Jab>tilt combos usually ended with Fsmash. Saying sheik is limit makes me chuckle. It may seem that way because she doesn't have alot of overly technical stuff except for Vanish-edgehog or canceling needles. However she ***** pretty much everyone of her peers with the least amount of effort. Which makes her overall better by default I guess..
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Although showing a match (an awesome match I might add) against a particular character(fox) and player(kels) doesn't really prove much, M2K is right. Sheik simply has better matchups, and I think most will agree that it's easier to master the basics of playing sheik as opposed to marth.
Fortress | Sveet
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Only sheik can just stand in one place for long periods of time until the opponent comes at her.
- Status