Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Griffard]

Personally I think they're better than Falcon by a wide enough margin to be in a different tier, and putting them above everyone else they're over on my list is pretty easy I think.

edit: just looked, in the "current" list they're 8th, only a one spot change.. *shrug* don't think that's so dramatic.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's only dramatic because of the tier difference between Falcon and ICs basically

 

[Griffard]

It's only dramatic because of the tier difference between Falcon and ICs basically

lol okay I feel you. Fair enough haha

 

[JPOBS]

Why ICs so high? They've done jack **** in recent times.

I mean I feel like they have a lot of potential, but it seems hasty to put them that high.

Strangely, one could say the same thing about fox.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fox sees a lot more success than ICs though.

Just not solo Fox.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Young Link counters Ice Climbers? You're cute.

.

Just going to ask this: Has any player that can claim to place in the top 20 consistently even played the IC:YL matchup?

They still poo all over him in a vacuum but you know what I mean.

 

[CanISmash]

There is no way fox is better than falco point blank. Again im of the opinion calling fox the best is like givig a 7 year old a chainsaw and telling them to fight an adult with a wooden plank.

Fox mccloud: 12 years of potential to dominate tournaments and be the best character when do we stop gauging potential and look at results....

Falco has control, range, safety, and combos. Its a lot safer to d-air than shine spike. Its a lot safer to approach while pinning ur opponent with lasers immobilizing opponents. (in b4 powershield) nobody can win with fox consistently because he simply doesnt have the range or safe approaches.

Imo top 5 in order. Jiggs (what matchup does she lose?) falco. Peach. Fox. Sheik.

 

[Tarv]

Doesn't Puff lose to Shiek and Fox ? Also, I'm decided how the Young Link/Puff MU goes. Apparently Armada and Hbox both think it's even but I kind of feel like it's a bit more difficult for Puff.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I thought it was Puff loses to Fox but wins against Shiek. CC rest so awesome.

 

[Get Low]

Jiggs (what matchup does she lose?)

Fox, Falco, Marth, Young Link, Ganon.

 

[BTmoney]

I personally don't buy falco beating jiggs at all. Not sure why people say that.
Jiggs vs fox isn't even that bad for jiggs. I think the fact that hbox beats everyone's fox other than 1 testifies against the MU not being as skewed as 30:70.

The only characters I say beats jiggs are sheik and marth. (and pikachu apparently now that I am checking. I have no opinion on pikachu).


EDIT:
Yeah it is definitely time for a new MU chart.

 

[Laijin]

Just going to ask this: Has any player that can claim to place in the top 20 consistently even played the IC:YL matchup?

They still poo all over him in a vacuum but you know what I mean.

Young Link wrecks Ice Climbers no matter how you look at it. This has been a known fact since like 2006 for us Young Link players lol. Its a match up we don't lose. Ever. Because its fairly easy.
Its not difficult to throw bombs at a character that has such a huge hit box(two of them'), pressure them easily because of the huge hitbox allowing for bomb regrabs to not get punished easily, and then combo them to oblivion because they are floaty. Add platforms to the mix now. Young Link is one of the best characters in the game when it comes to platform control, while Icies are pretty bad in the air, making them really easy to just sit on a platform and camp it against them.


No matter how you look at it. Its pretty free for Young Link. I'd even go out and say Jiggs has an easier time than Ice Climbers only because she has a way better air game.

Edit: Also YL beats Jiggs.

 

[ShroudedOne]

A word of advice: Don't consult the MU chart regarding anything you might think about this game. No exceptions.

 

[Mahone]

i don't think its 30:70, i hope no one thinks that

but i do think fox wins that mu

If sheik breathes u can rest her lol...

if u think sheik-jiggs is evenish, i could get behind that, but i don't see why ud think sheik beats jiggs, id be curious to know ur reasoning

pikachu might do well vs jiggs on paper, but idk how much of that stuff works in practice, im really not sure on that one, but i used to beat chu's pikachu when he was a lot better than me, so i might just be biased


i think jiggs only notable bad mu is fox, there are some mus like marth that might not be her favor but i think they are all so close that it doesn't really matter...

what i don't like more about her is that she struggles way more than other top tiers with mid/low tiers that she probably beats technically, but its annoying/hard to do so...

those characters are doc, luigi, ylink, ganon, ics, pika, g&w... and probably some more that im not thinking about right now

 

[Bones0]

I personally don't buy falco beating jiggs at all. Not sure why people say that.
Jiggs vs fox isn't even that bad for jiggs. I think the fact that hbox beats everyone's fox other than 1 testifies against the MU not being as skewed as 30:70.

The only characters I say beats jiggs are sheik and marth. (and pikachu apparently now that I am checking. I have no opinion on pikachu).

Falco has some stuff vs. Puff, plus I think Puffs tend to be bad at it because so many Falco players go Fox. I'd probably just consider it even, but not until high level where Falco stops getting hit by avoidable traps.

All that Hbox beating a bunch of Foxes really says is that he has more matchup experience than them and is better in general. Even with a vast margin of experience, Hbox still comes close to losing to high-but-not-top level Foxes (Unknown and Leffen come to mind). I don't think it's as bad as 70:30 though. lol That's insane.

 

[Griffard]

Falco has some stuff vs. Puff, plus I think Puffs tend to be bad at it because so many Falco players go Fox. I'd probably just consider it even, but not until high level where Falco stops getting hit by avoidable traps.

All that Hbox beating a bunch of Foxes really says is that he has more matchup experience than them and is better in general. Even with a vast margin of experience, Hbox still comes close to losing to high-but-not-top level Foxes (Unknown and Leffen come to mind). I don't think it's as bad as 70:30 though. lol That's insane.

Wait.. Unknown and Leffen aren't top level foxes? Who is then? Just Mango?

 

[Ripple]

I thought most people who actually have played the ICs puff MU say that its in ICs favor

 

[The Star King]

no just choknater

 

[Bones0]

Wait.. Unknown and Leffen aren't top level foxes? Who is then? Just Mango?

My point was they've never placed as high as Hbox has been for years. Hbox beats M2K and frequently takes Mango and PP to last games (and took a set from Armada, but not sure what that really means...). Can't say the same about Unknown or Leffen (yet ). There are no top level Foxes because Fox is pretty bad.

 

[unknown522]

Doc's jab is also better, which leads directly into those better smashes.

mario's jab doesn't guarantee a smash

c'mon man

 

[BTmoney]

If sheik breathes u can rest her lol...

if u think sheik-jiggs is evenish

Yes let me change my mind and agree with that. lol
I have no issue changing my mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jCZZE7h70U

I've always just heard sheik beats jiggs. It made sense in my head.

And Unknown and Leffen are both great foxes. Esp Unknown who I think is underrated (best in canada )

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Mario's jab > doc's jab, but doc's jab is still one of the best in the game (almost always has a follow up, even if they CC)

 

[unknown522]

Edit: ^ c'mon, you can't really believe that

@ bones: I guess fox vs marth is bad for marth too

 

[iRobinhoood]

Pichu goes about even with Pichu

 

[Gea]

Mario's second jab is significantly faster than Doc's, but their first jabs are the same minus Doc's having an extra %. How much they pop you upwards may be different but I doubt it is significant. Jabs don't auto-give you anything. I don't understand why you guys think a jab = a smash.

 

[Stevo]

Mario's second jab is significantly faster than Doc's, but their first jabs are the same minus Doc's having an extra %. How much they pop you upwards may be different but I doubt it is significant. Jabs don't auto-give you anything. I don't understand why you guys think a jab = a smash.

They think that way because a jab usually does = a dsmash with doc/mario lol
In practice it seems to work that way (at least for now)

even recently with high level players. Watch Shroomed vs M2K even. Jab Dsmash is good because it works and it works because it does.

 

[Gea]

I get that it's a solid followup to jabs that often works, but it isn't guaranteed, especially if they are on the ground/CCing. It's like saying Sheik always gets a grab off of her jabs.

 

[Stevo]

amost nothing in smash is guaranteed, that's one reason why We all love it.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Got me mildly emotional. ^

 

[unknown522]

Mario's second jab is significantly faster than Doc's, but their first jabs are the same minus Doc's having an extra %. How much they pop you upwards may be different but I doubt it is significant. Jabs don't auto-give you anything. I don't understand why you guys think a jab = a smash.

thank you

 

[Ripple]

Lol, wow.

How often do you see mario jab d-smash work?

How often does docs jab dsmash work?

Case closed.

Docs jab gives dsmashes way more often than marios.

Why would we care that marios complete jab is better than doc? Marios gives 10% and some positional advantage. While doc could just jab d smash and get an edgeguard

 

[phish-it]

Mario's Jab, jab, kick is better than Doc's but Doc's first (and second) jab has slightly more knockback/hitstun than Mario's which make it easier for follow ups.

They're different and both have their uses.

 

[unknown522]

Lol, wow.

How often do you see mario jab d-smash work?

How often does docs jab dsmash work?

Case closed.

Docs jab gives dsmashes way more often than marios.

Why would we care that marios complete jab is better than doc? Marios gives 10% and some positional advantage. While doc could just jab d smash and get an edgeguard

lol. Why would you jab -> d-smash with Mario?

And why does doc's jab -> d-smash not work on good players?

 

[Tarv]

So just to beat into people's brains a little bit more, we need a new match-up chart. So in that spirit, here is my extremely biased and uneducated opinion about Marth's match-ups:

Doc: 40/60
Mario: 35/65
Luigi: 45/55
Yoshi: 45/55
Peach: 50/50
Donkey Kong: 30/70
Captain Falcon: 50/50
Ganondorf: 50/50
Falco: 55/45
Fox: 50/50
Ice Climbers: 55/45
Ness: 30/70
Zelda: 30/70
Samus: 40/60
Shiek: 60/40
Link:40/60
Y.Link: 40/60
Pichu:10/90
Pikachu: 45/55
Jigglypuff: 55/45
Mewtwo: 20/80
Game and Watch: 10/90
Roy: 40/60


And as a prediction: Everyone will think I'm wrong.

 

[Ziodyne]

Believable for the most part. There'll be disagreements of course, but I think it's pretty solid overall AFAIK.

EDIT: Though I think Marth-DK is better for DK than 70-30 Marth. I could be wrong, but it seems like DK doesn't have a terrible time getting into Marth's range, has good juggles against Marth, and doesn't die that easily for the most part. Not exactly an expert on the MU though lol

 

[unknown522]

So just to beat into people's brains a little bit more, we need a new match-up chart. So in that spirit, here is my extremely biased and uneducated opinion about Marth's match-ups:

Doc: 40/60
Mario: 35/65
Luigi: 45/55
Yoshi: 45/55
Peach: 50/50
Donkey Kong: 30/70
Captain Falcon: 50/50
Ganondorf: 50/50
Falco: 55/45
Fox: 50/50
Ice Climbers: 55/45
Ness: 30/70
Zelda: 30/70
Samus: 40/60
Shiek: 60/40
Link:40/60
Y.Link: 40/60
Pichu:10/90
Pikachu: 45/55
Jigglypuff: 55/45
Mewtwo: 20/80
Game and Watch: 10/90
Roy: 40/60


And as a prediction: Everyone will think I'm wrong.

I'm guessing you main marth?

 

[Hax]

i just wanted to say that i have Yoshi right below Luigi and above like 10 characters on my tier list now. from playing Vman at Apex i can clearly see the potential in the character/tell he isn't in complete *** tier

Luigi, Yoshi, and Young Link (solely as a counterpick to Jigglypuff and possibly Peach) is a tier

Game and Watch is definitely better than Zelda, Bowser, Ness, Kirby, and Pichu and in the tier above them imo

 

[leffen]

vmans yoshi aint ****, he really needs some fundamentals.

yoshi is top tier in pal, not kidding. i've found so much previously undiscovered tech with yoshi the last week or so that i'm pretty convinced that hes actually top tier in pal.

He wins vs Marth/Sheik, goes even/wins vs falcon/fox/puff, loses to peach/falco. hes so ****ing good and he has got such insane potential.

if you doubt me then you haven't played my yoshi in pal, everyone i play pretty much agree that he's underrated as **** and i've yet to implement most of his good stuff.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Do it in tournament.

 

[leffen]

lol im hella tempted.

i did win a tournament this weekend with yoshi without dropping a game so...


if evo/g3 was in PAL i'd main yoshi 100% :/