Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Blistering Speed]

The burden of proof, both in tournament data and theory, is with you. You're going to need more than a couple superficial sentence to support such outlandish claims.

NB: This applies to all of you advocating weird **** outside of the status quo.

 

[MountainGoat]

Its a pretty known fact man.

Pretty known fact? I doubt there is anyone except you who would support most of what you're saying.

 

[Tarv]

Quick question for everyone: Is falco's "poor recovery" still cited as the main reason why he isn't at the top of the tier list, or at least ahead of Fox? Honestly just curious.

 

[Stevo]

A: Falco, Fox, Sheik, Jigglypuff
B: Peach, Marth, Captain Falcon
C: Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario, Pikachu
D: Ganondorf, Samus, Mario
E: Young Link, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Link
F: Zelda, Mewtwo, Yoshi, Roy
G: Ness, Mr. Game & Watch, Bowser, Pichu, Kirby

I like this list.
I still think Mario and Doc shouldn't be separated by a whole tier, though I understand that their differences do matter a lot.

 

[Gea]

Being able to grab -> fair goes a long way

 

[Mahone]

Quick question for everyone: Is falco's "poor recovery" still cited as the main reason why he isn't at the top of the tier list, or at least ahead of Fox? Honestly just curious.

no, its mostly his lack of strong kill setups on floaty characters


at least, thats my reasoning, the recovery might be other people's reasoning

 

[Tarv]

Hmm, that's a good point. I mean shining off the top is a difficult kill to pull off and bairing them to death can take a long time, especially against a floatie with a good DI. Then again if you can get above them, Falco's Dair kills all regardless. In my opinion though, overall falco has more reliable kill options and more consistent/easy ways to combo-to-death (or just screw the combo and just Dair them) than Fox does.

On the other hand, the Fox metagame in my opinion has become way too super-aggro. I honestly think if Fox mains started balancing out fox's aggressive gameplay with a more gimpy style approach then Fox would clearly be higher than Falco. I mean it's like people have completely forgotten how good Fox's defense is, and I'm not saying that fox players should stop the aggression entirely. I just think that Fox mains need to find that balance and bring out a vastly superior hybrid fox. Hybrid Fox >> Falco >/= Aggro Fox

 

[oliman]

The reason most people cite is matchups. fox in general has better matchups than falco, notably against peach, puff, and ICs. Therefore, lower

 

[Blistering Speed]

Falco's recovery is decent at worst.

 

[Tarv]

Hrm, interesting. That's certainly a good point, and I guess I have to agree with you. Are MU the only thing contributing to the tier list? I honestly never really considered IC's to be a tough match for Falco but I suppose it could be difficult, and I'm still on the fence on what I think of the Peach/Falco MU.

And while we're at it as a Marth main I'm genuinely interested in what people think are his tough matches and even matches. In my opinion Marth loses to: Falco, Ice Climbers (debatable), Shiek and Puff. Then he goes even with: Peach, Fox, Falcon, and Ganon. This is just my opinion and probably not technically correct by any margin.

Edit: @Blistering Speed: I personally don't think Falco's recovery is that bad at all. It just seems like a common complaint.

 

[BTmoney]

This is me defending myself:
Thank you strong bad for at least responding to me with some sense, I almost got discouraged enough to not post on this thread again just because of all the bias fallacies and ignorant responses...

Lower post count indicates less experience with the game, yes.

No, I think that's evident now.

I have been playing melee in tournaments actively for over 4 years. Your argument is invalid.

Evidence, etc. blah blah

You put Zelda in bottom tier because you've never seen her played
That is not true and no one said that. Also I'm sorry there is not a large pool of Zelda data or any serious Zelda threat currently. I suppose I could concede that point even though I was justified to think as I did.
you actually used the argument "Fox is #1 because he is #1"
No I didn't. You didn't read the post before that. You just said something basic and illogical so I responded with something basic. My basic response fundamentally and obviously disagreed with your logic. I thought that was clear and I thought you could understand its simplicity. Even if you didn't read or understand the post you could just look at the language I used in the post that you wanted to pick apart and see clearly that I did not say or mean "Fox is #1 because he is #1"
and you're assuming that YL destroys ICs because the MU chart says so.
This comment almost literally made me mad

And that could very well be true lol but if the MU says 80:20 in Icies favor I'm going to assume that Icies wins that convincingly lol
I've never seen a Icies vs YL match myself however

You are either being ridiculous or are not comprehending what I am saying. It is reasonable to assume that if the MU is popularly accepted to be 80:20 then it is probably true that the character who has the 80 probably has a sizable advantage over the disadvantaged character.
I never even said it has to be as skewed as 80:20.

I can't believe that you have a problem with that logic.
I even took it a step further and conceded to the fact that I have not seen YL versus Icies ever at a high level. I said I made an assumption. A logical assumption

"If the boot fits", as they say. It wouldn't bother me if you weren't so sure of yourself.
I even included "lol"s so you wouldn't take this so personally. Did I use offensive language or call you out on your credibility? No. I'm not sure why you countered me so adamantly in the first place.

Take every person on this board with less than a 100 posts and see how many of them know what they are talking about.
"And see how many of them know what they are talking about."
If you want to use that kind of language, you acknowledge the fact that some people with X posts do indeed know what they are talking about. Unless you meant to say something else, which I don't think you did, you aren't within your own logical to discredit everyone with X posts.

I could do this all day but I really don't want to.
Can we go back to being reasonable people??
Hopefully I won't be perceived as stupid from now on.
I mean ****, that was just rude.
Sigh............
I'm trying hard not to sound pretentious or rude myself.
If you had a hard time understanding me, take this post literally.




This is my response to the rest of thread/new posts:

A: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth
B: Peach, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon
C: Ice Climbers, Young Link
D: Dr. Mario, Samus, Pikachu, Ganondorf
E: Luigi, Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Link
F: Zelda, Mewtwo
G: Mr. Game & Watch, Roy
H: Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu

I'm not a fan of this list. I don't think there is any justification for Marth rising. You rose Peach but kept her below Marth which makes less sense imo.

Also I don't believe YL is better than Doc and Pikachu or better than Doc or Pikachu.
YL does however have his role. I'd place him behind ganon or tied with ganon.

 

[Laijin]

This is me defending myself:
Thank you strong bad for at least responding to me with some sense, I almost got discouraged enough to not post on this thread again just because of all the bias fallacies and ignorant responses...

Spoiler

If you want to use that kind of language, you acknowledge the fact that some people with X posts do indeed know what they are talking about. Unless you meant to say something else, which I don't think you did, you aren't within your own logical to discredit everyone with X posts.[/COLOR]

I could do this all day but I really don't want to.
Can we go back to being reasonable people??
Hopefully I won't be perceived as stupid from now on.
I mean ****, that was just rude.
Sigh............
I'm trying hard not to sound pretentious or rude myself.




This is my response to the rest of thread/new posts:




I'm not a fan of this list. I don't think there is any justification for Marth rising. You rose Peach but kept her below Marth which makes less sense imo.

Also I don't believe YL is better than Doc and Pikachu or better than Doc or Pikachu.
YL does however have his role. I'd place him behind ganon or tied with ganon.

Marth wins against Peach and I like Marth vs Sheik, Fox and Falco more so than Peach. It is in my opinion that Young Link has better match ups than both Doc and Pikachu. Neither of those characters fair as well as Young Link does vs Ice Climbers, Peach and Jigglypuff. They don't have bad match ups vs them, no but YL has better match ups vs them. I also like very much like Young Link > Ganon, but I don't think Ganon is better than Doc and Pikachu.

 

[Griffard]

I want to post my list soon, but for now I just want to say that I agree that it's important to have lists come out with some more frequency.

If nothing else, a new, slightly more accurate tier list gives us a snapshot of the state of the game at a high-level when we look back from the future.

If we want the community to survive and continue growing like I think it's totally capable of doing, it's important to maintain an ever-evolving image. The scene has grown from 2010 to now, at least from what I can see based on tournament attendance and overall involvement, so it would be nice to see the Back Room try and support that growth. Otherwise, it may as well be stripped down and re-created with the currently involved Tournament organizers and community growers that are so active now. (Scar as an example of someone who has gone above and beyond to try and increase knowledge and involvement recently)

 

[Bones0]

Quick question for everyone: Is falco's "poor recovery" still cited as the main reason why he isn't at the top of the tier list, or at least ahead of Fox? Honestly just curious.

First of all, I think most people consider Falco the best in the game regardless of what the old tier list says. Secondly, I think the main reason his recovery is so controversial is that it is very matchup-dependent. Peach, Sheik, Marth, Samus, and Puff all have pretty solid edgeguards on Falco. A lot of the other characters seem to struggle at it, and idk what to say about spacies since sometimes it seems like they can cover all the options, and sometimes it just seems impossible or too difficult to do consistently. I guess if you think that the spacies are good at edge guarding Falco then it makes sense you'd consider his recovery bad, but I can also see why people would think it's pretty good if they believe Falco can recover just fine against spacies. That's my take on it anyway.

Another perspective is that virtually every top/high tier character's recovery is better than Falco's except maybe Falcon. So some people probably compare his recovery to other characters' in which case, yeah, his definitely sucks. But just because his sucks relative to other characters doesn't mean it's why he's losing, so I guess that's the other side to it.

no, its mostly his lack of strong kill setups on floaty characters


at least, thats my reasoning, the recovery might be other people's reasoning

I've always thought his lack of speed was the biggest thing, but that might be an issue with my own game play. Aside from Peach being hard and Falcon being easy (and I guess Jiggs being hard, but I don't think the matchup's that bad), all the fast characters seem to give him the most trouble. Fox rush down and Sheik/Marth having superior defensive dash/WD speeds seem to make the biggest differences in the matchup.

Hmm, that's a good point. I mean shining off the top is a difficult kill to pull off and bairing them to death can take a long time, especially against a floatie with a good DI. Then again if you can get above them, Falco's Dair kills all regardless. In my opinion though, overall falco has more reliable kill options and more consistent/easy ways to combo-to-death (or just screw the combo and just Dair them) than Fox does.

On the other hand, the Fox metagame in my opinion has become way too super-aggro. I honestly think if Fox mains started balancing out fox's aggressive gameplay with a more gimpy style approach then Fox would clearly be higher than Falco. I mean it's like people have completely forgotten how good Fox's defense is, and I'm not saying that fox players should stop the aggression entirely. I just think that Fox mains need to find that balance and bring out a vastly superior hybrid fox. Hybrid Fox >> Falco >/= Aggro Fox

Dair to dair definitely allows for quick kills, but I think Fox's are way more consistent. Waveshine usmash and uthrow uair are just so good, and those options come up all the time (any time you grab or shine basically...). Falco can get early dair kills or shines/uairs off the top, but it kinda requires your opponent to **** up massively on their DI.

Idk why people think the Fox metagame is too aggro. Every good Fox I saw at Apex played campy as **** except vs. FFers.

 

[Griffard]

^
You're underrating Yoshi and Zelda imo. Both are definitely at least above the N/A tier.

Agree totally, also, my Zelda's too legit

Possibly, seeing as I have never seen anything to make me think otherwise lol

hilarious counter-argument lololol

 

[Bose]

On the other hand, the Fox metagame in my opinion has become way too super-aggro. I honestly think if Fox mains started balancing out fox's aggressive gameplay with a more gimpy style approach then Fox would clearly be higher than Falco. I mean it's like people have completely forgotten how good Fox's defense is, and I'm not saying that fox players should stop the aggression entirely. I just think that Fox mains need to find that balance and bring out a vastly superior hybrid fox. Hybrid Fox >> Falco >/= Aggro Fox

The thing about Fox vs. slower characters (Peach, Marth etc) is that most slower characters has an insane punish game vs. Fox. Chain grabs, gimps, stage combos and techchases are really strong against him. Fox' punish game isn't as severe on floaties, but he has the advantage that he has really good approach options, a great ground game, and blistering speed. You HAVE to play your character around his strenghts for him to shine. (no pun intended)

For Fox, his strenght is to be in his opponents face. He also has to, because if you sleep on a good Marth/Sheik/floaty, and don't apply pressure, they will take the control of the game away from you, and punish super hard.

 

[BTmoney]

Marth wins against Peach and I like Marth vs Sheik, Fox and Falco more so than Peach. It is in my opinion that Young Link has better match ups than both Doc and Pikachu. Neither of those characters fair as well as Young Link does vs Ice Climbers, Peach and Jigglypuff. They don't have bad match ups vs them, no but YL has better match ups vs them. I also like very much like Young Link > Ganon, but I don't think Ganon is better than Doc and Pikachu.

I've always been a marth advocate but I can't place him higher than jiggs for sure
I'm not a fan of marth vs sheik but is certainly not as dramatic as the MU chart suggests

Marth is such a hard character to gauge though. I feel as if he goes even or better with the entire cast other than sheik, but a lack of disadvantaged MUs would imply him being the best character in the game. Or 1 below fox who is allegedly even or better with everyone.

 

[Mahone]

I've always thought his lack of speed was the biggest thing, but that might be an issue with my own game play. Aside from Peach being hard and Falcon being easy (and I guess Jiggs being hard, but I don't think the matchup's that bad), all the fast characters seem to give him the most trouble. Fox rush down and Sheik/Marth having superior defensive dash/WD speeds seem to make the biggest differences in the matchup.

ya, idk, thats the problem with my falco too, but i think most people would say that u just need better lasers and i just sorta assume they're right since i don't know **** about laser stuff

 

[BTmoney]

I say it's time for a new MU chart

 

[ShroudedOne]

Just dash dance like Pound V PP.

Boom, fast Falco.

 

[Griffard]

Just dash dance like Pound V PP.

Boom, fast Falco.

Yap. Also, apply that to every character.
My favorite quotation from APEX 2013:
"The thing about dash-dancing is that you never know when your opponent is going to attack." LOL

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Having a 3-year-old tier list kinda reinforces the misconception that the game is dead/dying, or at the very least not evolving. A lot has changed since 2010, but then again, no one will admit it so here's a sneak peek at what the 2013 tier list would look like for those who care (I hacked Sveet's account to obtain it; no one tell him):

A: Falco, Fox, Sheik, Jigglypuff
B: Peach, Marth, Captain Falcon
C: Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario
D: Samus, Pikachu, Ganondorf
E: Luigi, Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Young Link
F: Zelda, Yoshi
G: Mr. Game & Watch, Mewtwo, Roy
H: Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu

uhh no. If you were in the BR you would be able to see it (its not hidden)

 

[Tarv]

The thing about Fox vs. slower characters (Peach, Marth etc) is that most slower characters has an insane punish game vs. Fox. Chain grabs, gimps, stage combos and techchases are really strong against him. Fox' punish game isn't as severe on floaties, but he has the advantage that he has really good approach options, a great ground game, and blistering speed. You HAVE to play your character around his strenghts for him to shine. (no pun intended)

For Fox, his strenght is to be in his opponents face. He also has to, because if you sleep on a good Marth/Sheik/floaty, and don't apply pressure, they will take the control of the game away from you, and punish super hard.

These are pretty good points.

I agree for the most part. Although, regarding your first point it really depends on the stage. For example Fox loses hard to Marth on FD because of Marth's chaingrab/gimp game but Fox's overwhelming offense combined with proper platform play gives him a big advantage on BF (in my opinion at least). Although the same could be said for Falco, and that's probably the biggest argument for the spacies not being "perfect" is that they're gimped so easily.

Although I do disagree that Fox's greatest/only weapon is his blistering speed against Marth, Peach etc. etc. I mean he does have some fairly easy/gimpy kills against the entire cast/ Applying pressure is certainly something you want to do in every match up but I think a lot of Fox's make the mistake of trying to "overrun" their opponent and a lot of times characters like Marth or Peach can set up easy kills because Fox's want to blitz through their defense. Perfect example of this is Mango trying to overrun Armada in Apex 2012 and getting crushed because of it. I'm not saying that Fox's should be passive or forget about their huge speed advantage just saying they could be more position-oriented, maybe slightly more defensive at times, ... I'm a huge proponent of the whole "Camp in their face" mentality when it comes to playing Fox. All I'm saying is that the whole blitz them to death mentality of Fox is an inferior way to play the character.

@Bones0: You bring up some good points, and I'm not really sure it just seems like Fox's like Mango. Silent Wolf, Javi, Leffen etc etc. always try to overrun their opponent with a super-aggro offensive. I could be wrong though. Like I mentioned before though I'm not saying that Fox's should sit back, take a passive approach and not apply pressure. Just that people should realize that Fox has more strategically efficient strategies than trying to overrun their opponent i.e. Playing a balanced strategy.


Edit: @Tactician: I agree wholeheartedly. I'd actually like to see a new MU chart way more than a new tier list.

 

[Griffard]

uhh no. If you were in the BR you would be able to see it (its not hidden)

What are the things that are wildly different? Post that ish Joe

edit: seconding a collaborative match-up chart/new all-inclusive match-up thread. That would be really nice, and more useful for actual gameplay than a new tier list imo

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sorry griff, i can't release it yet. Whens the next time ur in town?

 

[Stevo]

Being able to grab -> fair goes a long way

grab -> fair -> tech chase F-smash is pretty cool though

no but I agree, having an aerial kill move is really good. Some matchups it matters a lot less though, and having a good ranged forward smash can be really helpful. It can be hard to get grabs in some matchups with Doc/Mario too.


I think Mario can handle spacies as well as Doc, though you have to play it slightly differently (opinion). Might be better in the Ice climbers matchup too, but I am not entirely sure.

If only Doc had Mario's F-smash and his Fair was Mario's until kill percent lol

 

[Tarv]

Mario/Dr. Mario fusion character would be top tier. Just like if Link had Y.Link's speed he'd easily be in the top ten.

 

[Gea]

I mean when it comes down to it doc's dsmash and fair do more for him than anything Mario has over Doc. That's really what it comes down to. To a lesser extent I also think Doc's usmash is better but it's debatable. A fusion would be good but he would still struggle with a lot of the stuff he currently does, like being able to get grabs in the first place or utilizing high platforms effectively, or making good aerial trades.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Mario lacks dem KO moves.

 

[Stevo]

I mean when it comes down to it doc's dsmash and fair do more for him than anything Mario has over Doc. That's really what it comes down to. To a lesser extent I also think Doc's usmash is better but it's debatable. A fusion would be good but he would still struggle with a lot of the stuff he currently does, like being able to get grabs in the first place or utilizing high platforms effectively, or making good aerial trades.

Of course. Everybody agrees Doc is better. I just think it's not by as big of a margin as the tier lists people are giving would suggest. Nobody plays Mario though, as Doc is of course the better choice, so it is hard to prove anyway, and does it really matter?

I didn't realize Doc's downsmash was different from Mario to be honest.

I would also agree Doc's usmash is better, especially in conjunction with his Fair.

 

[Ripple]

Doc's jab is also better, which leads directly into those better smashes.

mario's jab doesn't guarantee a smash

 

[The Business]

Of course. Everybody agrees Doc is better. I just think it's not by as big of a margin as the tier lists people are giving would suggest. Nobody plays Mario though, as Doc is of course the better choice, so it is hard to prove anyway, and does it really matter?

I didn't realize Doc's downsmash was different from Mario to be honest.

I would also agree Doc's usmash is better, especially in conjunction with his Fair.

Also doc's bair is better, cape is better, utilt is better, pills are better.

and he has his go-go gadget extender hands that can grab the edge from a lot further away than mario

 

[Griffard]

Sorry griff, i can't release it yet. Whens the next time ur in town?

Naw I feel you, I know I know. Juuuuust checking. I'll be in town end of March I think for spring break. (Probably)

edit: also everyone talk more about how sexy Doc is, I like dat shiz

 

[Gea]

Doc is sexy as long as you're discussing everyone under him.

 

[Stevo]

Doc's jab is also better, which leads directly into those better smashes.

mario's jab doesn't guarantee a smash

wtf, how did I not know this? lol
does it do 1 more % or something? (at work and cannot test it)

Also doc's bair is better, cape is better, utilt is better, pills are better.

and he has his go-go gadget extender hands that can grab the edge from a lot further away than mario

I'm pretty sure Mario's up-tilt is better, no? In my experience Mario's has been more useful as it always sets up combos.
Mario's Dair is also better than Doc's from my experience.

I think more importantly here though, is what about Pika, Ganon, and Samus makes them not as good as Doc but better than Mario? Perhaps we don't have enough "proof" of Mario so we just have to assume he is worse than those 3. I guess I can agree to that. I should play Mario some more.

 

[Gea]

The utilts are both situational. Doc's actually is better vs spacies while Mario's is better vs normalweights and floaties. Mario's dair has 2 frames less of landing lag and a wider hitbox if he lands with it. Both dairs are good fullhopped in certain situations.

Doc's jab does indeed do 1% more but has the same framedata otherwise. I think both jabs are overrated but people react to them poorly so as long as it works, hey. Mario is sorta tested if you count Mango. For your other question I think Pika/Ganon/Samus all have people pushing those characters farther than anyone thought they could go a few years ago and Mario is pretty much the same as ever. As far as everyone has seen those characters also have better relevant MU tools than Mario has. So it could definitely be exposure issues, or it could just be that small things add up quickly.

 

[Griffard]

Here's my draft of a tier list based on my observations and the observations of others, plus results and just my opinions, man.
S Tier
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Sheik
4. Jiggs

I think this is pretty much what the top tier looks like as of 2013
A Tier
5. Peach
6. Marth
7. ICs

I think grouping these 3 together makes the most sense.
B Tier
8. Falcon
9. Doc
10. Pika

Call me crazy but I think these three are closer than a lot of people want to think. There aren't a ton of Doc or Pika players but I think soon we're going to see some more top players using these characters.
C Tier
11. Samus
12. :ganonmelee: Ganon

D Tier
13.-17. Luigi
13.-17. YL
13.-17. Mario
13.-17. DK
13.-17. Link

Okay this tier I really have no idea the order of. I think these 5 can be pretty approximately grouped together though.
E Tier
18. Zelda
19. Yoshi
20. Mewtwo
21. :gwmelee: G&W

All characters that have some representative players that can excel with them, but these characters have very clear limitations that are pretty difficult to overcome.
F Tier
22. Roy
23. Ness
24. Bowser

F Tier is an appropriate title, these dudes pretty much blow, but definitely not BOTTOM of the barrel.
Guuuuuh Tier
25. Pichu
26. Kirby

Bottom two for sure. Pichu can kill though :/

I'm curious how people would order my D tier characters or if there are just general other comments/complaints.

 

[BTmoney]

I like that list a lot other than Roy. I still think the concept of roy is good enough to be better than G&W and yoshi. And I'm not sure about kirby/pichu but honestly who cares.

 

[Griffard]

I like that list a lot other than Roy. I still think the concept of roy is good enough to be better than G&W and yoshi. And I'm not sure about kirby/pichu but honestly who cares.

It could be argued I guess, but I think G&W and Yoshi both have some interesting things to bring to the table. Roy is pretty straight forward imo, and he's just a strictly worse version of a really good character. What are his big advantages? A grab game and pretty subpar followup combos? His recovery is also bad enough to make him worse imo. G&W dies super early but has combo potential that's pretty great, nice disjointed hitboxes with some priority, and decent kill moves. Yoshi, as we've seen in recent years, has tons of untapped or uncommonly tapped potential. His combo and pressure game can be unbelievable. I think Roy has pretty much nothing that's really exceptional, which is why I put him where he is.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why ICs so high? They've done jack **** in recent times.

I mean I feel like they have a lot of potential, but it seems hasty to put them that high.