Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Tarv]

I'm guessing you main marth?

Yes indeed.

 

[MountainGoat]

lol im hella tempted.

i did win a tournament this weekend with yoshi without dropping a game so...


if evo/g3 was in PAL i'd main yoshi 100% :/

What makes Yoshi so much better in PAL? Or are other characters worse and thus make Yoshi more viable?

 

[Ripple]

lol. Why would you jab -> d-smash with Mario?

you don't, because it's worse. like I said earlier.

And why does doc's jab -> d-smash not work on good players?

it does. FRAME DATA says its a combo on the good characters except fox and falco.

 

[The Star King]

lol im hella tempted.

i did win a tournament this weekend with yoshi without dropping a game so...


if evo/g3 was in PAL i'd main yoshi 100% :/

go Yoshi at Beast then

 

[leffen]

What makes Yoshi so much better in PAL? Or are other characters worse and thus make Yoshi more viable?

both

hes the character that gains the most from pal by a huge margin


@the star king: I might. Practicing a whole new character when EVO/G3 are coming up after beast 3 is kinda counter productive though.

 

[Purpletuce]

vmans yoshi aint ****, he really needs some fundamentals.

yoshi is top tier in pal, not kidding. i've found so much previously undiscovered tech with yoshi the last week or so that i'm pretty convinced that hes actually top tier in pal.

He wins vs Marth/Sheik, goes even/wins vs falcon/fox/puff, loses to peach/falco. hes so ****ing good and he has got such insane potential.

if you doubt me then you haven't played my yoshi in pal, everyone i play pretty much agree that he's underrated as **** and i've yet to implement most of his good stuff.

Talk doesn't mean much. Do it.

Also, Yoshi doesn't get CGed by Shiek is the only huge difference that I know of. Then again, I've never played PAL, so who knows. There are lots of subtle things, who knows, maybe Leffen actually found a way to use those subtle things?

Seriously though, people need to stop thinking of vman's yoshi as yoshis potential. People should also stop thinking of him as the character's standout player (Armada's Peach, SB's DK, Axe's Pika, Taj's M2 kind of thing doesn't apply here.) At the moment, Yoshi doesn't have a standout player. Leffen might fill that role, but for now he is a Fox main who occasionally picks Yoshi back up as a secondary then goes back to Fox only.

Yoshi has a lot of potential, and if you mess around with him you might see that, but it takes a while. I've played him(and smash) for nearly a year now and I still mess up on a good amount of his prerequisites, and can't play him consistent/well with the things I do know. A good amount of things you will take for granted as a higher tier become challenging with Yoshi, which you have to get past.

For example, Yoshi generally has pretty small/short(time)/low priority hitboxes. So if he is trying to edge guard, lets say Fox, and compare how hard it is for Falco. Ignoring Falco's options for coverage/ability to get into the position, they both guess Fox is going low for a sweetspot. Yoshi can use D-smash for the kill, Falco can use F-smash. Falco has high priority so he doesn't need competent spacing, Yoshi does. Falco has a 12(I think) frame window, Yoshi has 2. Same applies for Falco edge guarding in the air, vs Yoshi in the air. Falco I think also has 12 frames of spike, with high enough priority to go through. Yoshi has a good amount of hitbox time for his N-air, but only the first 2 frames have enough priority to do anything.

Things like the above are all around playing Yoshi, which don't limit his potential, but make him harder to play compared to a character like Falco.

 

[leffen]

Yoshi is like Akuma in sf4, he requires insane amounts of work, i would never have time to reach his full potential by beast 3, that would take years.

Aside from the fact that hes the most technical character in the game by a landslide, he is also extremely underdeveloped. You have no one to steal stuff from.

Imagine if most up and coming falco players could only watch one player that barely get out of pools and only record friendlies. That's the case for me right now. Of course he is gonna look like a ****ty character if you don't think of what a top tier player could do with the character.


also LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL at saying "SB's DK" in the same sentence as Armada's peach and Axe's Pika. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU.

edit: as a yoshi main how can you not know the differences between pal and ntsc lmfao. that **** is in our guide

 

[Stevo]

People should also stop thinking of him as the character's standout player (Armada's Peach, SB's DK, Axe's Pika, Taj's M2 kind of thing doesn't apply here.)

no offense intended to Strong Bad but.... why was Strong Bad included there?

I mean, you are basically trying to say that those playesr such as Armada, Axe, or Taj have pushed the limits of their characters potential ( I think), but Vman hasn't pushed Yoshi's potential to the same degree.... but, how has Strong Bad pushed DK's metagame more than Vman's Yoshi?

seems unfair to include Strong Bad's DK but not Vman's Yoshi. What has Strong Bad introduced to DK's metagame?

Again, no offense Strong Bad lol.

 

[leffen]

when people think that "barely getting into bracket" = pushing a characters metagame to the limit i just sigh and realize how stupid the average person is

 

[Purpletuce]

I was just listing standout characters, characters that I think of off the top of my head. I took like 2 seconds doing it. I don't know anything about DK and haven't seen SB play before except in P:M and a crew battle at Apex. I'm probably about as uninformed about DK as most of you are uninformed about Yoshi.

Me including SB in that list I took 2 seconds to make was definitely not the take home message.

Think about what I was saying, don't simply nitpick on superficial details, like you're trying to prove you know more about the metagame than I do. You probably do (random current reader) but I probably know more about Yoshi than you do (still random reader). Think about what I'm saying about the character.

Leffen: I've read the guide, and I know some of the differences, although how the game changes is far beyond the guide, because it doesn't include any other character's changes. For me to atempt to understand PAL metagegame based off of only Yoshi's part in the changes that I happened to remember for novelty would be silly.

 

[Divinokage]

Also again this is the NTSC tier list not PAL. Yoshi is bad in NTSC.

 

[leffen]

yoshi is still better than ganon in ntsc lmao

 

[Ripple]

maybe you should be the proof to back up that claim. otherwise, I'm going to say that's a ******** claim

 

[leffen]

what makes you think i give a **** about what you think

just because you're too stupid to know anything about the game and/or think for yourself does not mean you can go spouting your ignorant bull**** like you matter.

 

[Xyzz]

I like how it's always the same: High tier players claim their character isn't as good as people believe, and low tier players claim their character is far better than everybody thinks :D

 

[leffen]

most low tier players are ****ing terrible tbh. taj is the only exception.


and taj plays marth too.

if you focus on being a low tier hero (read:******) then in 100% of cases you will get nowhere and you probably have god awful fundamentals and only rely on gimmicks

 

[Ripple]

what makes you think i give a **** about what you think

I don't think you care what I say, never said I did. if fact you've given pretty much everyone the impression that you don't care what anyone else says.

just because you're too stupid to know anything about the game and/or think for yourself does not mean you can go spouting your ignorant bull**** like you matter.

If I'm too stupid to know that Yoshi is high tier in NTSC maybe someone should show that he is. until that time, he deserves to be labeled as a mid tier at best.

 

[john!]

Game and Watch is definitely better than Zelda, Bowser, Ness, Kirby, and Pichu and in the tier above them imo

^ this, except zelda is in his tier IMO

 

[Laijin]

what makes you think i give a **** about what you think

just because you're too stupid to know anything about the game and/or think for yourself does not mean you can go spouting your ignorant bull**** like you matter.

most low tier players are ****ing terrible tbh. taj is the only exception.


and taj plays marth too.

if you focus on being a low tier hero (read:******) then in 100% of cases you will get nowhere and you probably have god awful fundamentals and only rely on gimmicks

Wow. No wonder no one likes this Leffen guy. He seems like a complete d-bag . He truly does deserve those boos he got at Apex. I'd boo him too.

 

[leffen]

I don't think you care what I say, never said I did. if fact you've given pretty much everyone the impression that you don't care what anyone else says.




If I'm too stupid to know that Yoshi is high tier in NTSC maybe someone should show that he is. until that time, he deserves to be labeled as a mid tier at best.

yes, everything that aids not thinking by yourself should be applauded

you're what wrong with the world lmao

if you know that i dont give a **** about what you say, then why are you so eager to say it? you know damn well that you thought(hoped) that someone would care about what you had to say.

 

[Jim Morrison]

lol im hella tempted.

i did win a tournament this weekend with yoshi without dropping a game so...


if evo/g3 was in PAL i'd main yoshi 100% :/

I wanna see you do it at BEAST, or at least record some friendlies, of you using Yoshi on some high level Euro players like Zgetto and Over

 

[leffen]

as I said, I really want to do it just so I can prove to these braindead morons who just follow the status quo what thinking outside of the box can give you.

im just not sure if its worth to spend time on such a hopeless matter though

 

[Ripple]

yes, everything that aids not thinking by yourself should be applauded

you're what wrong with the world lmao

if you know that i dont give a **** about what you say, then why are you so eager to say it? you know damn well that you thought(hoped) that someone would care about what you say.

I don't see how me requiring evidence to back up a claim leads you to believe I'm somehow aiding people in not thinking.

I don't care what you say becuase its always completely negative and you do nothing but insult people. I only respond in hopes that you will eventually stop doing that because it does nothing for the community.

 

[leffen]

You are requiring "evidence" for a claim that does not need any evidence.

you're so stuck in just following what others think that you could never take anything to your head and actually think about it. Yoshi is a top tier? LOL RESULTS OR DIDNT HAPPEN

That kind of thinking is ****ing terrible, and if you weren't so locked in your way of thinking you'd take my critique of your post to heart and not make excuses as to why it didn't achieve the results you wanted (to get validation in your claim). We both know that you did not post to make me stop insulting people, COME ON. If you seriously did, then god damn that was a bad attempt.

I'm not always negative and I don't always insult people, but fine, use that as you go use that excuse to make sure that you will learn absolutely nothing from making such a terrible, pathetic post that was nothing but a desperate call for attention.
If you had actually given any kind of arguments as to why Yoshi isn't that good, then it would've been different. But you didn't. You couldn't just take a minute and think for yourself.

 

[BTmoney]

You are requiring "evidence" for a claim that does not need any evidence.

A lack of evidence does not imply causation nor does it make any sort of positive implication.
So you're just wrong. I'm not saying yoshi is horrible or whatever but the burden of proof is on you.

I don't need to be great at this game to understand how to debate or make sense.

And what are you so mean for lol?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I support the idea of leffen at least playing friendlies at beast with yoshi (and have them recorded).

I also do believe that yoshi is better then he is commonly thought to be.

Also leffen did these vids of u playing yoshi at this Tourney u won?

 

[leffen]

A lack of evidence does not imply causation nor does it make any sort of positive implication.
So you're just wrong. I'm not saying yoshi is horrible or whatever but the burden of proof is on you.

I don't need to be great at this game to understand how to debate or make sense.

And what are you so mean for lol?

You can't PROVE that a character is good. There is just no way. It doesn't matter if I would win a million tournaments, because all of the so called evidence is extremely subjective.

A tier list is a matter of theorycrafting and when you imply that you need evidence to support a theory that cannot be proven you're just doing it wrong.

 

[Ripple]

You are requiring "evidence" for a claim that does not need any evidence.

our tier list was (is?), at least mostly based on results, if yoshi has no results why put him at the top of the list? its completely ********. if we never see an example of a good yoshi, or even a yoshi placing well, why would you claim he's top tier. the best you can do is call him underrated and try to prove it.

you're so stuck in just following what others think that you could never take anything to your head and actually think about it. Yoshi is a top tier? LOL RESULTS OR DIDNT HAPPEN

do you even know my thoughts on yoshi? I doubt it. so how you you say that I'm stuck following what others say about him when I haven't even told you what I think?

That kind of thinking is ****ing terrible, and if you weren't so locked in your way of thinking you'd take my critique of your post to heart and not make excuses as to why it didn't achieve the results you wanted (to get validation in your claim). We both know that you did not post to make me stop insulting people, COME ON. If you seriously did, then god damn that was a bad attempt.

critique of my post? you use ad hominem on me and you call that critique?

and no, my post was not entirely to make you stop posting. did you read it? I was saying why I don't care what you have to say. (because you're extremely rude)

I'm not always negative and I don't always insult people

you will learn absolutely nothing from making such a terrible, pathetic post that was nothing but a desperate call for attention.

I thought this was funny.

If you had actually given any kind of arguments as to why Yoshi isn't that good, then it would've been different. But you didn't. You couldn't just take a minute and think for yourself.

you didn't give any for anyone to think that yoshi is top tier or even high tier. burden of proof is on you

 

[Laijin]

Leffen is the reason people don't like the smash community.
This dude is almost Inui tier.

 

[Mic_128]

You can't PROVE that a character is good. There is just no way. It doesn't matter if I would win a million tournaments, because all of the so called evidence is extremely subjective.

Fox isn't good then?

Anyway, I'd suggest you all drop this. Getting a bit too heated for my liking.

 

[phish-it]

Guys, you should know better. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; as long as they comply with Leffen's. Otherwise you are a ****ing worthless piece of feces that that doesn't deserve the privilege of life. We mustn't disobey our Savior.

 

[Hax]

I really don't understand what it takes to get banned from this website

past few pages have been downright disgusting

 

[john!]

you guys realize that giving an intelligent theorycrafted argument for why a character is good or bad counts as evidence, right?

 

[Laijin]

I really don't understand what it takes to get banned from this website

past few pages have been downright disgusting

The mods are asleep. Leffen should have received like a 12 month ban already

 

[Mic_128]

And we're done.

EDIT: Alright, it's been a week. See if you can discuss tier lists without flaming each other.

 

[Purpletuce]

So this is back. I'm going to start things back up with some Yoshi propaganda. Yoshi has several things going for him which are rarely developed, and probably haven't been seen often, such as:

Can throw eggs from ledge so safely that many players will resort to letting yoshi on (I scared Bladewise away)

Can shield drop without any shield stun, making his U-air so potent, I've scared Washington PR level players away from attacking it.

Can juggle very well + huge damage means many players will take major damage instantly

His main spacing tool (B-air) can do 20% and combos well, so he can get really strong nearly-guaranteed damage even if he misses the follow up

Can parry out of tech chase(even grabs), making him one of the harder characters to tech chase.

After an aerial attack on shield, he can parry with varying timing to stop and counter attack

Combine above with his F-smash being safe on shield, jab cancels, a good poke (D-tilt/smash), and good grab follow ups on fastfallers for strong pressure

Instant ledgehog is super quick and can cover options well.

 

[Varist]

don't explain why yoshi is good, explain why he is better than the characters above him.

 

[Mic_128]

You'll probably find the two are connected.

 

[Varist]

You can say Yoshi has all these cool things. You can call him good. You can convince everybody he's amazing. But a Mewtwo or a Zelda or a Roy player can do the same thing.

They are connected, but serve different purposes in a discussion. In a tier list discussion, explaining why one character is good in an effort to move him up the tier list is not a substitute for saying whom he should be moved above and why.

 

[Mic_128]

They are connected, but serve different purposes in a discussion. In a tier list discussion, explaining why one character is good in an effort to move him up the tier list is not a substitute for saying whom he should be moved above and why.

Would you not conciser 'several things [...] which are rarely developed, and probably haven't been seen often' as potential reasons for a move? I'm not saying it's conclusive evidence, far from it, but you have to start somewhere, and it's much better than posting 'Yoshi should be higher' or tearing own higher tiered characters. If need be I'm sure he could add 'which [insert relevent higher-tiered char] can't do' at the end of each point.