I think this is what you mean.
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Wake
Smash Master
Ganon should be top of low tier. Maybe bottom of mid.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
No, i don't think that's what I meant.
I think Yoshi is a little underrated, but he's got glaring weaknesses that make him bad.
I think Yoshi is a little underrated, but he's got glaring weaknesses that make him bad.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
COMING SOON TO A THEATRE NEAR YOU: 15 tier breaks.
Yoshi definitely has his weaknesses, but being trapped on the ledge and CC aren't any of them. He has a good CC of his own, an aerial grab, and multiple ledge stalls and ECEs to deal with these.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
As a character, I think Game and Watch > mewtwo, roy, DK, maybe even Zelda.
The problem is though, GnW has literally never had a player like Taj, Bum, Cosma, Germ, etc to play him. DireVulcan was ok, but if there was a Taj-level GnW, I think he would be top of Low Tier easily. He has a lot of good tools.
The problem is though, GnW has literally never had a player like Taj, Bum, Cosma, Germ, etc to play him. DireVulcan was ok, but if there was a Taj-level GnW, I think he would be top of Low Tier easily. He has a lot of good tools.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,559
G&W sucks
No defensive options and light as hell
No defensive options and light as hell
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
If G&W had a useable shield and maybe a few other minor buffs, he would easily be ganon's level or so. This is the type of G&W I hope to create in SD remix (plug)
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Yes, those are his two biggest weaknesses. But every character in that tier has 2-3 glaring weaknesses that you could easily go "X sucks, no ___ and ___"
My point was that every character in that tier has had atleast one national level player, GnW is the best char that never had any rep.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
All we've got is that ancient Bombsoldier video 
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I'd be willing to bump Yoshi up to the top of D tier or something but I don't buy the hype completely yet.
He just seems kind of limited in how he can respond to feints, baiting, etc. When I play against Yoshis, his character feels like it's entirely counterfighting (CC, parry, DJ armor). But then his low priority on his high duration moves (aside from bair, I guess) makes it awkward to defend with him without either predicting or doing ridiculous (unrealistic) reactions all the time. He seems really vulnerable to timing changes by the opponent.
I also play the version where Sheik 0-deaths him. So maybe I'm biased because of that. I'm also not entirely sure how he gets through a good shield game because of how crappy his grabs are on non-FFers (or at least they seem really crappy - maybe I'm just missing something?).
I dunno, maybe it's a mistake to put him below Mewtwo and Mr. Game & Watch. Heck, maybe he should even be above Roy and the low end Zelda characters. But he just seems so... limited. Kind of reminds me of Ness, except Ness can't even counterattack.
The only new stuff that's really got me excited about Yoshi at all are the platform stuff. Because it sounds like the kind of stuff that might actually have potential to interact with baiting & feint strategies due to the limited ways you can go about hitting someone on a platform (and Yoshi bypasses a lot of the typical weaknesses involved in the easier modes of platform drops [the shield angle doesn't affect him] so this kind of thing seems especially good on him). But I've never seen anyone actually use any of it and the counter strategies haven't really been fleshed out either so I don't want to incorporate it into my evaluation until someone gives me a reason to do so. I've got some ideas on how it changes how characters need to interact with him but it's all theory; and going super duper theory mode on these things tends to make bad discussion.
edit:
I honestly think G&W's biggest issue is that he's a fairly 'normal' character with no real gimmicks, useful unique traits (aside from a crouch that beats some tall grabs), or BS to toss at the opponent. You can fight G&W exactly how you'd go about fighting a Marth or Ganon or similar 'standard' ranged character and be successful. With characters like Yoshi, ICs, Pikachu, and Luigi there are a lot of silly nuances you need to know because they have weird moves, awkward body contortions, multiple recovery options, fairly unique character traits, etc. that can throw you off. G&W has some really quality tools but fighting him is really straight forward so it's hard to produce cheesy wins with him - this is unattractive in a low tier AFAIK. He's also soft to grabs that force techs and space animals run him over very easily.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Armada, why do you think Ganon is so bad?
1: Bad recovery: Pretty much impossible to not kill him when he is off stage. A very slow recovery from a big char is really bad.
2: Have to guess/read a lot: This makes the combo game way worse for him especially on high level of play when one hit pretty much means to be death.
3: When he is in the air it is no secret what Ganon is locking for. Not that hard to space it and then grab especially with chars that have at least decent running speed.
4: Bad under pressure: What is Ganon best option during pressure? Upp-b or roll. Both of those are not good options and he struggle a lot once you understand Ganons range exc.
5: Really easy to combo because he is so big and he also have slow moves and that makes it even harder to get away in late part of many combos. Easy to combo and bad recovery means it will be even more stupid because putting him offstage means dead and he is so easy to get offstage.
I really don't see how Ganon is a better char then Samus/Pika/Luigi/Yoshi cause for me it feels like all those chars is better because they have some really strong things and Ganons range is probably the best he has (and tons of really bad stuff) and that is not as good as those chars good thing and they also have less bad things.
2: Have to guess/read a lot: This makes the combo game way worse for him especially on high level of play when one hit pretty much means to be death.
3: When he is in the air it is no secret what Ganon is locking for. Not that hard to space it and then grab especially with chars that have at least decent running speed.
4: Bad under pressure: What is Ganon best option during pressure? Upp-b or roll. Both of those are not good options and he struggle a lot once you understand Ganons range exc.
5: Really easy to combo because he is so big and he also have slow moves and that makes it even harder to get away in late part of many combos. Easy to combo and bad recovery means it will be even more stupid because putting him offstage means dead and he is so easy to get offstage.
I really don't see how Ganon is a better char then Samus/Pika/Luigi/Yoshi cause for me it feels like all those chars is better because they have some really strong things and Ganons range is probably the best he has (and tons of really bad stuff) and that is not as good as those chars good thing and they also have less bad things.
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
I feel like you are underestimating the sheer strength of a Ganon hit once he gets in. Like I think he needs to be lower than he is now (mainly because I think Pika should be higher), but not below Luigi or Yoshi. At least, not until I actually see a Luigi or Yoshi player actually do like...anything (Vudu is good but he seems like an extreme outlier, much more so than Kage).
Dan Salvato
IE
I'm not arguing about the tier list but I'd just like to point out that a single outlier is enough to demonstrate the viability of a character. A single example of a character playing very well is enough to say that the character is good.(Vudu is good but he seems like an extreme outlier, much more so than Kage).
Theftz22
Smash Lord
Not to mention EDDY ****ING MEXICO
Nah but ganon is better than luigi.
Nah but ganon is better than luigi.
Max?
Smash Champion
There are a number of solid Luigis, and one **** Ganon. They are both still *** tho.
Main Falco
Main Falco
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Hehe, Yoshi discussion...
/continues to lurk
carry on gentlemen....
so I can be humored..
/continues to lurk
carry on gentlemen....
so I can be humored..
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Well the way I see it, the outliers are important but should honestly be viewed on a larger scale. For instance look at the (general) top ten players in the world...there are one MAYBE two foxes (if Mango is considered a Fox main now). That is a surprisingly low number considering his tier list placement. The thing is, once you expand the sample to the top 50, all of a sudden there is a huge explosion of Fox mains. This attributes itself to the fact that he is generally the best character in the game.
Essentially, the "best" player of any main (the outlier) is never going to be a good representation of the general meta. Look at Armada: Peach is a great character, but once you get past Armada it may be hard to find another Peach in the top 25 players. Armada's status as an outlier doesn't attribute itself to Peach's potential...yes because Peach is capable of doing these things Armada was able to abuse her potential, it is more connected to the fact that Armada is just an amazing player. This is even more accentuated in Hbox and Jiggs; while he is amazing at abusing Jiggs' potential, Jiggs isn't inherently THAT good of a character. This shows in the general distribution pattern of Jiggs in relation to top players...or maybe a better way of putting it is a lack thereof.
Why are you comparing the number of "solid" mains of a character to the "****" mains?
The way I see it
**** Luigis:
Eddy Mexico
Vudu
Solid Luigis:
Vist (?)
-edit- Abate
I'm admittedly lacking in knowledge of many Luigi mains, but this kind of speaks for itself in terms of me not knowing anyone (I like to think I keep up with Melee a lot).
**** Ganons:
Kage
Linguini
Solid Ganons:
BizarroFlame
RockCrock
G. Vice
While the numbers aren't that far apart, the results of tournies definitely favor the Ganon players.
Max?
Smash Champion
Abate's Luigi is freaking ****, so is Blea Gelo in Florida. Guini and Bizarro are retired iirc
PGH Carroll
Smash Master
Abatttttteeeee such a good looking guy.
Luigi so good. BLUIGI
choknater
Smash Obsessed
keep in mind PAL ganon is mad weak
Theftz22
Smash Lord
Linguini still plays he just plays more fox than ganon.
Stevo
Smash Champion
I think Roy should be moved up on account of his Bread and Butter combo.
Grab > Verbal Insults
Grab > Verbal Insults
SleepyK
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,871
this in its entirety. game and watch is so straightforward ;_;
Triple R
Smash Lord
I'm jumping on the train that Ganon is bad. He's not low tier bad, but he's bad mid tier.
I mean, Kirby wins the matchup against Ganon. How much worse could you get?
I mean, Kirby wins the matchup against Ganon. How much worse could you get?
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
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- Messages
- 9,632
you could be roy
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Wake
Smash Master
We try not to talk about Roy in MN.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Linguini's rusty Ganon is still better than basically every Luigi around today except perhaps Eddy Mexico.
Ganon sucks but worse than Luigi? Do you have any idea how bad Luigi actually is? Any at all?
Ganon sucks but worse than Luigi? Do you have any idea how bad Luigi actually is? Any at all?
JPOBS
Smash Hero
^Real talk. Its like you guys don't even play melee.
Triple R
Smash Lord
Crouch single-handedly wins the matchup.
unknown522
Some guy
@ jockmaster: I'm prett sure that rockcrock is at least as good as vudujin. If not better.
My point is, if you have vudujin listed as **** Luigi, rockcrock should be one (still I think by your standings of that list vudujin should be solid, but meh).
Also yeah, abate is pretty solid too
My point is, if you have vudujin listed as **** Luigi, rockcrock should be one (still I think by your standings of that list vudujin should be solid, but meh).
Also yeah, abate is pretty solid too
Wake
Smash Master
Crouch is a really KO move I heard.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Luigi is worse than ganon, imo, but not by a whole lot. Ganon is pree crappy though. Worse than Pika for sure.
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Wait what?
Well even if that's true, it simply reinforces my point -_-
Yes I agree that Pika is better than Ganon. I think Pika is better than Samus and maybe Doc as well.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
I think samus kinda sucks, tbh...
Like.... Who does she even do well against?
She's ok vs spacies...
And pree good vs ICs...
But who else does she do well against?
Like.... Who does she even do well against?
She's ok vs spacies...
And pree good vs ICs...
But who else does she do well against?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
She's fine vs peach as well... like pretty even actually.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Spacies and Peach are manageable
That's worth a lot tbh
That's worth a lot tbh
kyaputenfarukon07
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2011
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- 267