Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Bob Money]

@Bob$ I don't get the tier division between A and B, mostly because you have Peach/Puff in both A and B and I was thinking tier divisions were used to indicate a significant difference in viability (or however these tiers are defined).

Also, could you explain a bit more about Shiek > Falco? Like, how Shiek is able to compete against more variety of playstyles or how Falco gets zoned out a bit harder than Fox/Shiek (I think this is what you implied, anyway)?

I just think they could both fall into either tier, I'm not so sure myself. I am leaning towards B tier for Peach and Puff though. Actually yeah marth has his own tier.

Shiek and falco are pretty close, basically falco zoning out falco i think limits him as a character MUCH more than zoning out shiek because falco dies alot quicker during this process. Shiek can be played aggresivly or a zone character without being dismantled quite as easily. For example if Puff /marth are getting single hits on falco during the zoning process he risks being tech chased and out of position off the stage to a higher degree than Shiek and fox. This is why falco IMO is very tricky to play vs a high level player that knows the matchup and understands a high level falcos mentality. When more players start understanding what falcos look for as openings I think we can objectively say that playing against falco is more about push and pull than character viability. When falco has foxes run speed and dahs dance then his dilemna will be solved, but until then falcos usually have to outplay someone to get past zoning. Now this is the case right now with PP and Mango and some other high level falcos zhu etc. making it look like getting in with falco is relativly easy but this is only because they outsmart thier opponents/read movement extremly well. We have only a few examples of high level zoning vs falco which doesn't necessarily discredit falcos viabilty (however small that might be) but it does expose a hole in the character that doesn;t get shown enough.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@KK: Why not?

 

[odinNJ]

super secret tactics. too deep for plebs. but on a serious note i completely agree with the ganon bair thing. of the hundreds (possible every) ganon vs puff match that i have watched the bair is just a great spacer and a great option vs the little pink *****. comes out pretty fast and is at a great height in compariosn to his body.

btw, kk, gravity falls is awesome

 

[KirbyKaze]

Gravity Falls is pretty good

 

[Jockmaster]

No.

Rude

10rude

 

[tarheeljks]

Marth and Falcon disagree.

I actually was going to say Falcon and Jiggs, so it looks like we have a little trend here

in what sense in falcon overrated? which characters are comparable but get less respect? pimping people who play falcon is different than pimping falcon

also happen to think marth is pretty underrated at this point, but i also think that's more debatable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

@KK: Why not?

I don't explain concepts like that on the boards. I try to limit the amount of super duper vague theory I verbalize in open areas because:

1) people don't seem to like it
2) it never goes anywhere
3) a lot of people don't understand it

So I prefer discussing these matters on AIM and such. It's nothing personal against you - I just don't talk about that stuff here.

IIRC I have you on both AIM and Skype so if you want to know I shouldn't be hard to track down...

 

[Jockmaster]

in what sense in falcon overrated? which characters are comparable but get less respect? pimping people who play falcon is different than pimping falcon

also happen to think marth is pretty underrated at this point, but i also think that's more debatable.

He literally can't recover, gets comboed, and has weak approach options compared to those in his tier area

 

[unknown522]

KK knows what it is

 

[Divinokage]

I don't explain concepts like that on the boards. I try to limit the amount of super duper vague theory I verbalize in open areas because:

1) people don't seem to like it
2) it never goes anywhere
3) a lot of people don't understand it

So I prefer discussing these matters on AIM and such. It's nothing personal against you - I just don't talk about that stuff here.

IIRC I have you on both AIM and Skype so if you want to know I shouldn't be hard to track down...

Well I tried to, even as vague as it is.. I guess that's where I excel at, huh? lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

And for that you get a gold star!

 

[Deleted member]

you know ganon vs marth is a bad match because ganon's best form of mobility in that match is roll dodging.

this game isn't that hard TBH

 

[Archangel]

Marth is like...the only top 8 character that you can roll, spot dodge, and air dodge against constantly and still win.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And for that you get a gold star!

>:/

Marth is like...the only top 8 character that you can roll, spot dodge, and air dodge against constantly and still win.

It's much more powerful to mix it in against Marth than most characters.

 

[Bones0]

Idk what you guys are talking about. Marth is practically designed to beat roll/spot dodge antics.

 

[TheLake]

Marth is so bad lol

falcon has bad approach options lol?

maybe compared to falco but thats just cause he has lazers

falcons nair is like the best approach in the game by far

besides like...approaching with yoshis neutral B

aerial grab = OP

 

[JPOBS]

For real, I don;t get the "falcon can't approach" thing.

Nair->gentlemen is pretty damn good. Bonus points for spacing. what do sheik and marth have for approaching that even comes close to the godliness of nair gentlemen?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falcon's nair is awful for approaching LMAO

Seriously, if you are a falcon player and you are still moving forward with nair more often than fair, you're doing it wrong. Nair is easily CC'd or shield grabbed, and don't say "space better" because that is a two player activity. Knee is safe on shield, safe on hit, combos better, and KOs at stupid early percents. If you're going to be reckless, at least make it worth your time.



Oh yeah, and Uair is good on block and hit and covers your head. Pretty good move with good range.

 

[Vudujin]

Why Bother Tier: Falco/Fox, Sheik
Jesus Christ Tier: Peach, Puff, Marth, Falcon
You've Got To Be Kidding Me Tier: Doc, IC's
This Tier Only Exists Competitively From Outside Fandom Teir: Samus, Pikachu, Ganon, Luigi, Mario
Everybody Else Tier: Everybody Else. . . . except Pichu, Ness, Kirby, and Bowser. They should NEVER win a match.

Sausage links, misfire, and lasers are the best approaches.

 

[KirbyKaze]

All I hear is "Falcon has approach options"

 

[Purpletuce]

Best approach: Yoshi's jumpcancel jump -> confused opponent -> kill yourself.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Best approach: Yoshi's jumpcancel jump -> confused opponent -> kill yourself.

 

[tarheeljks]

He literally can't recover, gets comboed, and has weak approach options compared to those in his tier area

doesn't really answer my question, though the last part is getting there. who is falcon worse than iyo that he is commonly perceived as being better than?


don't agree w/the recovery part either, esp when there are platforms, but that's a diff discussion

 

[Deleted member]

Marth is like...the only top 8 character that you can roll, spot dodge, and air dodge against constantly and still win.

if you're stupid i guess lol

 

[Kimimaru]

I also think that the Ice Climbers are a bit overrated. They're just too binary and superficial; without Nana they're really bad, and with Nana they're good. Aside from grabs they have very few combos, and losing Nana hurts them a lot, perhaps too much. They just seem so reliant on getting grabs that it's obvious what they're aiming for when fighting you. Any player with decent knowledge about the game would know how to fight them even if the player hadn't even played an Ice Climbers main. They have to be concerned with keeping themselves together when they get separated in addition to focusing on the opponent, which is an unfavorable annoyance.

I just don't see what justifies their position. Every character in the game has moves that separate them, including grabs.

 

[JPOBS]

All I hear is "Falcon has approach options"

says the sheik main

 

[Kink-Link5]

So is there any argument for Falcon that doesn't revolve around "He's cool/manly/whatever the ****"? Falcon seems to have no reason to approach since he gets much better damage and reward off camping and waiting for the opponent to come at him poorly so he can get his easy mode auto-combos on them and win hype for playing like a Down's Syndrome Sheik.

 

[Pink Reaper]

says the sheik main

Sheik has needles

Falcon has a gun

That he cant remember how to use

 

[JPOBS]

Falcon doesn't use his gun beacuse he's too proud to lower himself to that level of lameness.

So is there any argument for Falcon that doesn't revolve around "He's cool/manly/whatever the ****"? Falcon seems to have no reason to approach since he gets much better damage and reward off camping and waiting for the opponent to come at him poorly so he can get his easy mode auto-combos on them and win hype for playing like a Down's Syndrome Sheik.

There have been successful arggo falcons Darkrain, S2j, Scar, most notably. Aggresive/Approach heavy seems like a perfectly legitimate strategy with falcon and has been for like a decade. I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The percentage of successful DK and Ice Climber mains is quite more than the successful Falcons.

In either case, it doesn't matter who is using the character to get success; any single player doing so is plenty enough to show what they are capable of. What matters is how that compares to the proven capability of other characters.

I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that there are Falcons, and players of other characters, that have achieved a notable degree of success using intimidation-focused offensive gameplay, but I could not disagree more with your reasoning as to how that warrant's Falcon's current spot on the tier list, if that is in fact the reasoning behind said placement.

 

[Pink Reaper]

There has never been a legitimately successful DK main. There have been DK mains who have done well, but never ones that have won anything.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Kimimaru: Watch some Fly Amanita vids, then come back and say they rely on grabs.

 

[The Star King]

The percentage of successful DK and Ice Climber mains is quite more than the successful Falcons.

No ?

 

[JPOBS]

The percentage of successful DK and Ice Climber mains is quite more than the successful Falcons.

There are also a higher percentage of sucessful DK and Ice Climber mains than there are sucessful Fox and Falcos. This statement proves nothing at all.

In either case, it doesn't matter who is using the character to get success; any single player doing so is plenty enough to show what they are capable of. What matters is how that compares to the proven capability of other characters.

Okay. If consistently placing in top 5-8 for big tournaments for the entirety of melee's history, being spread out between numerous players isn't "proven capability" then idk what to say to you.

I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that there are Falcons, and players of other characters, that have achieved a notable degree of success using intimidation-focused offensive gameplay, but I could not disagree more with your reasoning as to how that warrant's Falcon's current spot on the tier list, if that is in fact the reasoning behind said placement.

I don't know what you're talking about here. I haven't mentioned anything about tier lists?
I was just saying how approach heavy gameplay with falcon has empiracally proven to be successful, despite the "falcon has no approach" jargon that gets thrown around the boards.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No ?

ELO ratings contend the opposite.

There are also a higher percentage of sucessful DK and Ice Climber mains than there are sucessful Fox and Falcos. This statement proves nothing at all.

That's sort of what I said?

Okay. If consistently placing in top 5-8 for big tournaments for the entirety of melee's history, being spread out between numerous players isn't "proven capability" then idk what to say to you.

I don't know what you're talking about here. I haven't mentioned anything about tier lists?
I was just saying how approach heavy gameplay with falcon has empiracally proven to be successful, despite the "falcon has no approach" jargon that gets thrown around the boards.

I never brought up the "Falcon can't approach" issue, but that's what you decided to address using my post; it seems like there was confusion on the context of my post. I merely said Falcon gets better rewards off camping than he does from approaching, not that he can't approach. I also asked what arguments there were for Falcon as a whole, not for his approach. Again this seems to be an issue of context.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Percentage only really means something if there are an equal or almost equal number of players

39 ICs player
11 DK players
130 Captain Falcon players

Let's give an arbitrary success cut off of say, 1600 ELO, which most top/high level players are above.

10 Falcons fit that criteria
3 ICs fit that criteria
0 DKs fit that criteria


Let's calculate percentages

10 Falcons out of 130 is 7.6923069230...% approximately
3 ICs out of 39 is 7.6923069230...% approximately
HOLY **** IT'S THE SAME NUMBER
0 DKs out of 11 is 0%

So there clearly isn't a higher percent of successful ICs and DK players

I got all the numbers from SSBPD

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wait, percentages don't matter unless they have comparable sample sizes, so you come up with a percentage using drastically different sample sizes?

You seem to be missing the point regardless. JPOBS simply misunderstood the intent of my previous post and appeared to be arguing for Falcon's spot on the tier list using a "Number of successful Falcons," to which I countered with "a greater number of successful DKs and ICs," while admitting that the number of players being successful doesn't matter.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ELO is a mean average. The number doesn't reflect how many there are at any given point, simply the mean average between all numbers. There could be 1 DK main and he has 1500 ELO and 5 1500 foxes and 5 1000 foxes. The average for DK will be higher regardless of whether fox has as many or more

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I see, I missed the part where you said it didn't matter.

I apologize for wasting your time with my pointless posts

 

[JPOBS]

You seem to be missing the point regardless. JPOBS simply misunderstood the intent of my previous post and appeared to be arguing for Falcon's spot on the tier list using a "Number of successful Falcons," to which I countered with "a greater number of successful DKs and ICs," while admitting that the number of players being successful doesn't matter.

I wasn't arguing about the tierlist at all. I was just commenting on falcon having a pretty good approach, because that was the trending topic at the time.

I brought up the number of successful falcons being aggresive because you (ambiguously) commented something along the lines of "why don't falcons play campy because its really good".

So i guess what I was getting at, but didn't explicitly say, was that:
Falcon players don't play campy because being aggressive is a legitimate strategy (as evidenced by the number of successful people doing it) and its just more fun.