Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Archangel]

If only that were the case...but most of what I see is "Marth doesn't win nationals" and "people have figured him out," without really elaborating on why as it relates to his weaknesses.

I have been in the Marth boards. Niko made a very good post compiling a LOT of Marth's weaknesses. I just don't see that same rational approach to evaluating why he is a bad character in here.

As far as I know, almost no one has really been explaining on the boards his character weaknesses.

You said it yourself. Pointed out "twice" in the last two years. :\

...it's been pointed out over an over again since 2004 when "Marth is Broken" was the subject of discussion....

 

[Kimimaru]

Actually most characters, except Fox, can't do much about it.

Just curious, but what can Fox do about shine grab? All I can think of is jump OOS.

One big weakness I think Marth has is his recovery. He's forced to recover low most of the time so he gets edgeguarded easily.

Note: I actually think Marth is one of the most well-balanced characters in the game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Shine oos.

 

[choknater]

If only that were the case...but most of what I see is "Marth doesn't win nationals" and "people have figured him out," without really elaborating on why as it relates to his weaknesses.

I have been in the Marth boards. Niko made a very good post compiling a LOT of Marth's weaknesses. I just don't see that same rational approach to evaluating why he is a bad character in here.

As far as I know, almost no one has really been explaining on the boards his character weaknesses.

You said it yourself. Pointed out "twice" in the last two years. :\

can u link to niko's post on marth's weaknesses? i wanna read it haha

i did this before with ic's haha

 

[Kink-Link5]

If only that were the case...but most of what I see is "Marth doesn't win nationals" and "people have figured him out," without really elaborating on why as it relates to his weaknesses.

I have been in the Marth boards. Niko made a very good post compiling a LOT of Marth's weaknesses. I just don't see that same rational approach to evaluating why he is a bad character in here.

As far as I know, almost no one has really been explaining on the boards his character weaknesses.

You said it yourself. Pointed out "twice" in the last two years. :\

So long as you can admit your folly, there's no harm done. There's nothing worse than stubborn ignorance. Yes most people don't want to go on about every particular matter and like to streamline conversations to as concise, "Hmm, hmm, mm hmm," circle jerks of similar opinions as they can, but worse than that is when the opposition demands elaboration on arguments without elaborating their own first, then gets pissy when no one wants to go through the effort of carefully explaining something that is better discussed in conversation rather than debate.

Which is why I'm glad you aren't one of those people. Just don't expect the instant gratification of a dignified essay when it's really not in the nature of message boards and try to keep from trying to discredit the opposing side. If there's something you don't agree with, don't take it up with the value of the opposition's statements, just put your own take on the matter; if it really is more sound of an argument it should hold against the other without having to devalue it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@Choknater: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13949871&postcount=1518

It's rather long, but worth it, imo.

@Kink: Yeah, I agree. I just...like explanations a lot, lol. I'll keep that in mind, though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dude Shrouded asks for like a million elaborations and clarifications

I talked to him for like 4 hours last night and half of it was examples

But I love Shrouded so s'all good

Sup baby

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hi Kirbykaze <3

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah marth sucks. Top 5 in the game is pretty awful.

 

[Archangel]

Yeah marth sucks. Top 5 in the game is pretty awful.

Is he still top 5 in the game?....I think it's at least open for debate.

even if he is 5th best that would make him mediocre because...lets face it out of 26 characters only top 10 are really worth looking at. 11-12 maybe. So if he's 6th, or 7th out of 10-12 tournament viable characters that really doesn't mean much.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah, he was 4th on the MBR preliminary tier list compiled this summer. Hes also 4th on my personal list. I don't think anyone credible is really arguing him being lower than 5th, though I could double check my data.


double checked, VaNz was the only person who had marth below 5th. His list had marth below falcon.

 

[Archangel]

Not unanimous = debatable. Not to mention a great deal of people who aren't part of the BR Country club see marth as below 4th as well...and...do personal lists mean much? I guess they do. Everyone has their own opinion. I personally think the only improvements left for marth are the same improvements every character can make as well so I don't see him climbing any higher. He has only 1 direct to go from here...down. His Peers seem to have out preformed him overall the past few years...given another year or 2 with his kind of performances of late and I'm not sure he'll keep his 5th spot much longer personally.

I still like to play marth though so...IDGAF.

 

[Purpletuce]

Lots of hate on Marth, I don't think he stands to go down. . . yes Marth has weaknesses, but he also has strengths, and from the strengths he has a character, down to his frame data, and the metagame that has already been developed for him, I think Marth will always be very viable, although not top tier,. I would definitely say he is 4 or 5.

I also think people should consider the amount of affect the tier list has on tourney play. . . character MUs are not absolute, and (for the most part) the better player will win, even if they're character isn't top tier. (more true when looking at players with lower skill, but I believe the tier list is for top level play.) It isn't like Marth can't win matches. . .

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth can win matches, sure. But can he win a National? :O

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNN

 

[Kink-Link5]

The only real point of contention I can see against Marth dropping is, well look at the characters right under him. The only ones making real strides forward in his place are IC's and ShroomeD-oc; I can personally see IC's capable of making that jump, but that might just be the IC main in me.

Falcon has been doing the same **** for 11 years so any movement of his is a direct result of other characters moving forward rather than him moving back. That's where the "Marth problem" comes from. Sheik, Marth, Falcon, Ganon, and to a much lesser extent, Fox are not necessarily doing worse, even relatively, other characters are just being pushed forward and explored more, while these five "hype machines" are sticking with the same guns, trying to show they still work even with the new blood.

Now, whether they do still work, and if they do, if they work as well, is entirely where the root of the argument unfolds. The fact of the matter, and one that I'm sure every backroom member looking at tentative votes is focusing on, is that there are players of characters preforming equally against and out-preforming the best players the characters currently above them can throw out, and that matter can't simply be ignored.


I'd really like to discuss Fox Falco more unless that has been done to death with recent matters taken into account.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Judging loosely from my own results and seeing who winds up placing above Sheik in general, I think Sheik's stuff still works just fine

 

[Kink-Link5]

Judging loosely from my own results and seeing who winds up placing above Sheik in general, I think Sheik's stuff still works just fine

I agree; I think Sheik still needs to be proven a lot weaker than she shows currently to warrant any negative movement. She just has that same stigma of "always on top, but why?" and she's always going to be controversial because people are stupid and want to try to find any excuse they can so a character that combos as easily as Sheik can be lowered in placement or tier break, while controversially hyping up Falcon for comboing D-throw into fair like it's the internal combustion engine.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think anyone questions why Sheik is so high.

She has strong MUs across the board and solid representation throughout the bracket (iirc someone took a count of the characters in P4 bracket and there were something like 7 Sheiks in a 48 man bracket, which isn't bad at all).

She has very obvious strengths. And weaknesses that can be mitigated by player skill and smart play (although they're still weaknesses and they can't be fully worked around).

Etc, etc.

Marth and Puff are the only good characters where a reasonable chunk of people seem to want them to drop a few spots (when Sheik is shuffled around the top 4 or 5 spots I don't really think she's being dropped). And it's been this way for a while.

Ganon and the mid tiers are basically a flavour of the week dealio. I thought we all kind of figured this out. Anyone else remember when Kage placed 5th at ROM and 3rd at ROM2? And how Ganon suddenly shot up and was the coolest kid on the block? Basically same thing with Pikachu and stuff. Except Pikachu keeps doing pretty well aside from a wacky APEX 2012 performance.

Pikachu, Yoshi, and ICs are honestly the only characters where I think much development has gone down in recent years. Or enough to warrant the kind of scrutiny you seem to be talking about - I don't see what Shroomed really does that's brand spankin' new with Doc aside from u-smash at good times. When I played him he struck me as a pretty typical aggressive Doc... just a fawkload better.

 

[ZoSo]

This gif is ****in amazing. Miss you dude.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I miss you too baby.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ice isn't an example of high level Marth?

I didn't get to this...but I'm still rather uncertain on Ice. He seems to be kind of inconsistent, I think?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't see what Shroomed really does that's brand spankin' new with Doc aside from u-smash at good times. When I played him he struck me as a pretty typical aggressive Doc... just a fawkload better.

Reading this with that avatar of yours was mindblowing. Like the subtlety of that ellipsis falling into such a blunt statement was so beautifully wry I can't help but appreciate it.

 

[Archangel]

I spent the last few years gathering info on Marths around the planet....from what I found...there are alot of very good marths out there. Some I would even put on a M2K level(with Marth only). They just lack a strong enough fox/Sheik to place as high as he does. Going Marth only at a major tournament is simply considered a risk. Most people's thoughts on Marth are assuming you can 0-death a spacie on FD which EVERYBODY bans/strikes vs Marth. I think it's sort of...silly.

The only thing more silly is questioning Sheik's position...she's pretty much stuck where she is. Sheik is what I call the Gate keeper of S-tier. She only loses to the 3 characters above her. She beats everyone below her, some of them more convincingly then the 3 above her. A top level Sheik for example would laugh in the face of a young link trying to beat her. Marth? FD? no problem lol. I think at this point everybody below sheik is having a battle for 5th place at and the remaining places under that. If more IC players show up and Wobbling is unbanned everywhere it could get really interesting.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Spacies tend to ban FD against even non-Marth characters too; well, at least depending on their knolwedge of the opponent, their skills as a player, their opponent's skills as a player, and the characters their opponent can use at their highest skill. Like Marth would make a great combination with another character to force a ban on FD or whatever stage the other character can use well, but he's forced to BattleFountainofYoshi'sDream on his own.

 

[Armada]

Archangel: Marth players hane TONS of stuff to learn. The mentallity that nothing more if left is a reason that push players back. It is great examples what EVERY Marth can do tons better (and I don't talk about Tas ****).

1: Combo game: The most important thing that every Marth in the world lack some information tbh. Marths combo game is REALLY strong and one hit basically means death (especially on FD) but many Marth players seems to not understand the char to 100%. Some thing that can be worth remebering for marth mains is that u-air is underrated and u-tilt is overrated in combos. Many Marths that is useing uair into another one do it in a completly wrong way (against spacies mostly). The stun from the hit is actually kinda long even then Marth players back another one directly.

This means they will lose a bit potentcial every single combo because hit them again will mean they (the opponent) are a bit higher because you don't use the advantage of them beeing unable to jump/move correctly. Another thing is that if you wait a little bit extra with hit again Marth will be in a lower position =closer to the ground so you actually have the best possible position/time for doing the next step (those things on FD and really good understanding should mean 0-death at least 75% of the time for really good Marth players)

2: Shield drop is very good especially with a char that is bad OOS. Shield drop u-air is extremly good vs moves/chars coming from above. The move is extremly good for combos aswell and a lot of things working with this is still to explore. I know this is one thing every char can work with but the few that does is mostly spacies and Marth actually benefit from this way more then most chars.

Will possible mention more stuff later but don't have time atm.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ice isn't an example of high level Marth?

Ice goes Marth vs spacies. We already know Marth is fine vs spacies.

 

[Archangel]

Archangel: Marth players hane TONS of stuff to learn. The mentallity that nothing more if left is a reason that push players back. It is great examples what EVERY Marth can do tons better (and I don't talk about Tas ****).

1: Combo game: The most important thing that every Marth in the world lack some information tbh. Marths combo game is REALLY strong and one hit basically means death (especially on FD) but many Marth players seems to not understand the char to 100%. Some thing that can be worth remebering for marth mains is that u-air is underrated and u-tilt is overrated in combos. Many Marths that is useing uair into another one do it in a completly wrong way (against spacies mostly). The stun from the hit is actually kinda long even then Marth players back another one directly.

This means they will lose a bit potentcial every single combo because hit them again will mean they (the opponent) are a bit higher because you don't use the advantage of them beeing unable to jump/move correctly. Another thing is that if you wait a little bit extra with hit again Marth will be in a lower position =closer to the ground so you actually have the best possible position/time for doing the next step (those things on FD and really good understanding should mean 0-death at least 75% of the time for really good Marth players)

2: Shield drop is very good especially with a char that is bad OOS. Shield drop u-air is extremly good vs moves/chars coming from above. The move is extremly good for combos aswell and a lot of things working with this is still to explore. I know this is one thing every char can work with but the few that does is mostly spacies and Marth actually benefit from this way more then most chars.

Will possible mention more stuff later but don't have time atm.

I don't think I said Marth has nothing more to learn...did I?

I get what you are saying but honestly none of it is exactly unknown. Same thing happened about a year ago when someone thought of fthrow-pivot-fsmash and they just started saying it everywhere. Shield drop-Uair is a good move though especially vs characters you need to keep above you at all costs.

What exactly do you mean by Uair and Utilt being overrated?

 

[Divinokage]

I don't think anyone questions why Sheik is so high.

She has strong MUs across the board and solid representation throughout the bracket (iirc someone took a count of the characters in P4 bracket and there were something like 7 Sheiks in a 48 man bracket, which isn't bad at all).

She has very obvious strengths. And weaknesses that can be mitigated by player skill and smart play (although they're still weaknesses and they can't be fully worked around).

Etc, etc.

Marth and Puff are the only good characters where a reasonable chunk of people seem to want them to drop a few spots (when Sheik is shuffled around the top 4 or 5 spots I don't really think she's being dropped). And it's been this way for a while.

Ganon and the mid tiers are basically a flavour of the week dealio. I thought we all kind of figured this out. Anyone else remember when Kage placed 5th at ROM and 3rd at ROM2? And how Ganon suddenly shot up and was the coolest kid on the block? Basically same thing with Pikachu and stuff. Except Pikachu keeps doing pretty well aside from a wacky APEX 2012 performance.

Pikachu, Yoshi, and ICs are honestly the only characters where I think much development has gone down in recent years. Or enough to warrant the kind of scrutiny you seem to be talking about - I don't see what Shroomed really does that's brand spankin' new with Doc aside from u-smash at good times. When I played him he struck me as a pretty typical aggressive Doc... just a fawkload better.

Well again I got 5th at FC and RoM 4 before too, am I cool again? I definitely had the potential to get 3rd too at FC, I was 2 games away from that. =(

 

[Bob Money]

Marth doesnt win nationals because all the people(top end of bracket) that play against them are much better at the game. easy to rationalize.

Pool of equal/comparable skill marth players doesn't exist with the exception of PPU (doens;t travel alot) and M2K ( multi character main). obvious.

 

[Archangel]

Marth doesnt win nationals because all the people(top end of bracket) that play against them are much better at the game. easy to rationalize.

Pool of equal/comparable skill marth players doesn't exist with the exception of PPU (doens;t travel alot) and M2K ( multi character main). obvious.

I do agree with players deciding outcomes of characters most of the time. However to say so boldly that the players are much better at the game and that is why they win is sort of...idk...strange to me. It is also strange to me that everyone who's considered good at the game play someone other than marth. It's also strange to me that top players who have gone from fox, falco, Puff, or Sheik over to Marth for the sake of "proving he can win a national" have noticed a considerable drop in success overall and have yet to win a national....It is also strange that some of these same players have lost to those who did the opposite and switched from Marth to Fox, falco, puff or sheik. Everything about this is just...strange to me.

So many things wrong with the assumption of player skill and imo. There is at least some evidence that spacies for example are better than the rest of the cast as a whole. I'm not sure there is any evidence to say who's the better player unless you gathered all the highest placing players around the world and had them do best of 3 with every possible character match-up combination and tally the results. Aside from that...all you have to go on is placements...but how much a placement involves the player and how much involves the character? Do you believe any of the current top 20 in the world can take a national tournament as Kirby for example? If you do believe this then...ok.

On another note PPU Is a talented kid.

 

[twizzlerj]

I still don't think marth is in top 5 if anything hes tied with peach for 5th but shield drop u-air sounds nice

 

[Boat Mode]

Lesson I learned from this thread:

**** Marth main Falcon

 

[Kink-Link5]

Falcon is bad. Just use Ice Climbers.

 

[Warhawk]

Well for Marth to drop one of the characters below him has to be better than him and between Peach, Falcon, and ICs I just don't see it. What technology or advancements have they gained over the last few years that would really make them deserving of leapfrogging Marth? To me, he just seems to be a good deal better than them still. I think Marth still competes just fine still, maybe not on Fox, Falco, Shiek level but he can definitely keep up.

 

[JPOBS]

Improving technology is not a prerequisite for moving a character up, or likewise, moving other characters down. There is usually a correlation observable because a new player may come along and teach us things about a character we never appreciated (read:axe with pika) but it is not a requirement.

What did mango do that was revolutionary with puff that King didn't do? Apart from being a better player. I ask this in earnest, because mango has even said his puff was modeled after King. Yet we moved puff up after mango started performing with her.

Further, I think its unfair to say that IC and Peach have not had developments recently. IC in particular almost never stop developing, and as for peach, I would argue that Armada has demonstrated uses of moves like D-tilt and Upair to extend combos that where not seen in the days of Cort/Vidjo etc and so he has brought that to the table.

 

[Archangel]

Peach has done significantly better not just Armada but in general Peach players have done really well in MU's that were once considered near impossible for the character. IC's in a wobbling legal world are probably better than Marth. Wobbling banned and IC's are still questionable. Falcon like the IC's is another questionable thing. Overall the past 2 or 3 years Falcons in general are doing better than Marths.

If you disregard Mew2King and Armada and Mango since those 3 will always be used in arguements like this. Then look at the 2nd highest placing players over the past 3 years Peach is still out placing Marth. Falcons in the past 3 years have gone from placing about even with Marth to pretty much always outplacing him. I think all things considered...you could put together a very strong case for Marth going down. It seems like his position now is too honorary. It's like a badge given to him for everything he's done in the past...but as time goes by it makes less sense to me.

 

[Warhawk]

I think they've had developments (especially ICs) but I don't think its significant enough to trump what Marth already had. I just have trouble moving him down when he has so few losing matchups (1 or 2), especially when the 3 characters below him have not only have more losing matchups (generally 4), but also a pretty bad matchup that define why they are where they are and hurt their ability to move up. I guess you can try to argue that his generally accepted matchups are overrated but even M2K seems to agree with most of them. ICs are the only ones I can ever see taking Marth's spot at this point and that's if they continue to make advancements, certainly not now.


Also I prefer to talk about what changes have come for the characters to avoid the circular argument of whether its Marth or the players using Marth who cause him to have problems placing high outside of M2K.

@Archangel if we wanna argue about Marth's placements minus Mew2King I think it indicates a lot on the status of Marth players compared to players of other high tiers that Ice is often talked of as one of the best Marths in the world and he's maddeningly inconsistent. Also if we go by that Puff should probably go back to being tied with Falcon.

 

[odinNJ]

i agree that compared to the other top tiers (but not marth) falcons approaches dont look so great. and the nair can be good for crossups but a knee onto shield at the lowest possible height gives falcon a frame advantage of 3 right?

 

[Battlecow]

**** pp has a girlfriend?

This CANNOT mean good things for his smash. It's like Rocky. Women weaken legs. His dairs are gonna be stale forevermore.

 

[JPOBS]

It seems like his position now is too honorary. It's like a badge given to him for everything he's done in the past.

My thoughts exactly.