Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Kimimaru]

Kimimaru: Watch some Fly Amanita vids, then come back and say they rely on grabs.

Thanks; he changed my perspective on them a little bit. It still seems like they need to use grabs more often than most other characters to get something good going, and their binary nature is still a problem.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No worries, my opinion on ICs is always changing so I don't have anything else really to add, just thought I should point out the strength of wave-smashes and bair haha

 

[Kink-Link5]

Thanks; he changed my perspective on them a little bit. It still seems like they need to use grabs more often than most other characters to get something good going, and their binary nature is still a problem.

What a character relies on doesn't really give any indication of how good they are as a character. Puff relies on bair almost entirely and is still easily an S tier character (Not necessarily an SS tier character). The fact is, they can get something good going.

I wasn't arguing about the tierlist at all. I was just commenting on falcon having a pretty good approach, because that was the trending topic at the time.

Hence, "appeared to be."

 

[The Star King]

Marth relies too much on his sword, C tier at best IMO

 

[john!]

marth is amazing

ppl just can't play him correctly

because he's harder than the rest of the top 5 except possibly puff

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'll add an asterisk to my previous statement

*unless what the character on is the opponent being bad, in which case the character probably isn't very good.

 

[Bob Money]

If falcon cant approach no character can...come on people we dont play FD 100 percent of time and stand in one place. Dont be dumb his movement and speed are part of what lets him in, Play S2J then tell me Falcon can't approach. There are many angles one can approach in as well as different timings etc. Stop thinking like bad player/2004 people use platforms and way better movement to "approach". For not having an "approach" S2J and Hax sure do quite well vs much better characters AND better players. C'mon Fkn Ridiculous.

 

[phish-it]

^^ This.

People seem to be inclined to talk about Super Theory Bros. when we are actually playing Super Reality Bros.

 

[KirbyKaze]

"Smash is played in venues, not vacuums." - Lovage

 

[Kimimaru]

What a character relies on doesn't really give any indication of how good they are as a character. Puff relies on bair almost entirely and is still easily an S tier character (Not necessarily an SS tier character). The fact is, they can get something good going.



Hence, "appeared to be."

That's why I think Jigglypuff is A or B tier at best (there's no need for an SS tier, by the way). One good option isn't better than multiple options. She also dies ridiculously early and doesn't have a good answer to the opponent's OOS options. That's Jigglypuff, though.

The Ice Climbers on the other hand don't have a recovery nearly as good as Jigglypuff, and they're not very good without Nana. To get the most out of Nana you have to grab. Once you get rid of Nana they suddenly become a lot easier to fight since they no longer have their strongest tool (chain grabs, wobbling) or a good recovery anymore. There is no other character in the game that suffers from such a big weakness. It also doesn't help that Nana has like a Level 5 CPU AI when separated from Popo and does random things that can mess you up. Since they're reliant on grabs it makes them predictable, which isn't a good thing. As far as I know, they don't have a good approach that doesn't involve grabbing, so if you can stay in the air or shield pressure them well you should be fine. This is also most likely one of the reasons Peach does so well against them.

 

[Kink-Link5]

There's no need for an S tier either but we made that **** up too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

At top level play, most characters lose a stock when they are put in a decently disadvantaged position.

Ice Climbers lose Nana instead; not too shabby if you ask me.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What? Losing nana is the disadvantaged position. Like fox shine splits you two, you are automatically in a disadvantaged situation on top of stage position. If he kills her, you are stuck in that situation for the rest of your stock.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not sure what you're getting at. I was just saying that when a lot of characters flat-out die, ICs just lose Nana.

 

[john!]

i'm peach and fox shines me, putting me in a disadvantaged position. he proceeds to drillshine-usmash me and i take about 40%

i'm falco and fox shines me, putting me in a disadvantaged position. he proceeds to techchase me into uthrow-uair-whatever, i take 40%

i'm ice climbers and fox shines me, putting me in a disadvantaged position. he proceeds to kill nana because she is a ****ing dumb *****. i am now playing a bottom tier character for the rest of the stock

 

[JPOBS]

marth is amazing

ppl just can't play him correctly

because he's harder than the rest of the top 5 except possibly puff

For like the first 8 years of melee's existance, marth was the most dominant character in the game. 2 of the 3 recognized "Kings" of melee mained marth.

To imply that people "can't play him correctly" is ludicrous. Its far more likely that marth has just been exposed for fraudulence as the metagame has progressed.

 

[john!]

For like the first 8 years of melee's existance, marth was the most dominant character in the game. 2 of the 3 recognized "Kings" of melee mained marth.

To imply that people "can't play him correctly" is ludicrous. Its far more likely that marth has just been exposed for fraudulence as the metagame has progressed.

so you think that, instead of better players coming along that simply don't happen to play marth, the most dominant character suddenly dropped off the radar because of the metagame? you think the metagame changes more rapidly than the top players themselves? that's not even possible, since top players define the metagame.

i still think marth might be 5th best, but he's definitely around sheik/puff level... none of this "peach/falcon tier" nonsense

 

[Kink-Link5]

so you think that, instead of better players coming along that simply don't happen to play marth, the most dominant character suddenly dropped off the radar because of the metagame?

Yes.

The only Marth that left the scene was Ken, and like 3 other, better Marths took his place.

you think the metagame changes more rapidly than the top players themselves? that's not even possible, since top players define the metagame.

I don't know where this logic follows. The top players of other characters began to outplay the top Marth players as time went on; that is a prime indicator of a metagame evolving past a character. No one ever said the metagame goes faster than the players, and this series of incoherent statements is absolutely obtuse.

 

[DerfMidWest]

On the subject of ICs:
Sopo can still punish the **** out of fox lol. Its a weakness, but it doesn't make the character bad.

On marth:
Metagame change is a thing. Oldschool style marth doesn't work anymore. Marth platers try to emulate ken or m2k then complain when they don't do well. Marth is good but marth players don't adapt to the current metagame or focus on advancing their character enough.

 

[choknater]

my sopo vs fox game is getting so good lol

falco on the other hand............. **** is soooooooooo hard

 

[Kink-Link5]

On the Fox Falco topic while we're here, I've always felt that Fox has a much more forgiving spread of even and advantageous matchups, while Falco has much better "good" matchups with a few, less forgiving, harder matchups than Fox. Thoughts on these spreads?

 

[Mew2King]

singles:

Top:
1)falco
2)puff/Fox

Sheik tier:
4) Sheik

High:
5)Marth/Peach or Marth > Peach

7) ICs
8) Falcon
9) Doc

-----

teams:

Top:
1) Puff
2) Fox

Next:
3-4) Sheik/Peach

Next-Again:
5) Falco/Pikachu, then maybe Doc, or Falcon/Ganon.

 

[Purpletuce]

Sheik tier. . . seems legit.

I like the idea of separate tiers for singles and doubles, although I feel like the nature of doubles shortens the distance of any characters because of the other players on stage can compensate, ex: CGs don't work if a teammate breaks it, you can't always wait for an edgeguard, pressure can be broken by teammate, etc.

It makes me sad to see top level players not considering anything past top 9 not worth mentioning in the tier list. . .

 

[KirbyKaze]

In a lot of cases, it's not so much that they're not worth mentioning so much that we have much less data on them so we can't give an accurate placement.

I wanted to lump the low tiers together into separate groups in the last few tier updates and leave them unranked because there's so much ambiguity with certain placements. But then everyone said it was a cop-out, and then got mad when their characters weren't ranked the way they wanted.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not to mention that bringing up low tiers always causes stupid, theorycraft fueled discussions that detract from meaningful ones about top tiers.

 

[cannedbread]

zelda is so much better than mewtwo

 

[Max?]

For like the first 8 years of melee's existance, marth was the most dominant character in the game. 2 of the 3 recognized "Kings" of melee mained marth.

To imply that people "can't play him correctly" is ludicrous. Its far more likely that marth has just been exposed for fraudulence as the metagame has progressed.

Agreed.

singles:

Top:
1)falco
2)puff/Fox

Sheik tier:
4) Sheik

High:
5)Marth/Peach or Marth > Peach

7) ICs
8) Falcon
9) Doc

-----

teams:

Top:
1) Puff
2) Fox

Next:
3-4) Sheik/Peach

Next-Again:
5) Falco/Pikachu, then maybe Doc, or Falcon/Ganon.

Interesting lists, especially your teams list. I find it interesting that you have Pikachu so high, and I agree that Doc is massively underrated in teams

 

[Divinokage]

And for that you get a gold star!

Ya buddy! I'm invincible!!

you know ganon vs marth is a bad match because ganon's best form of mobility in that match is roll dodging.

this game isn't that hard TBH

It is? Marths can't even handle my DD, and WD, CC, WD OOS.. and moves OOS at times. It's not a bad matchup, it's barely even.

Edit: OT: Pika definitely owns in teams, he's awesome! I even saw proof from DJN's Pika. He can disrupt things very quickly, he can gimp, he can help recover his partner very well.. he can cover the edge very very well too. Your partner can get basically saved every time if he didn't get killed. His weaknesses other than being a light character is much easier to handle... like getting CG, that wont happen or it will happen with little damage. He has a pretty strong KO move too.

 

[ShroudedOne]

What high/top level Marths started to get outplayed by top players of other characters? Ken quit, Azen had momentarily retired, so there was only M2K...so M2K's own Marth falling off is enough to say, "Ah well, the character must suck." Forgive me if that sounds rather unbelievable.

 

[Divinokage]

What high/top level Marths started to get outplayed by top players of other characters? Ken quit, Azen had momentarily retired, so there was only M2K...so M2K's own Marth falling off is enough to say, "Ah well, the character must suck."

The other top players are simply better and know how to handle that Marth. But that definitely doesn't mean there isn't any room for improvement. I even thought before that I skill capped with Ganon but I was wrong and I kept pushing limits. With that said, it's proof enough everyone can do that with enough care at the game. At that level, you need to play A LOT to keep a great consistency level and not fail one little technical mistake. It makes a HUGE difference. Those players punish every little mistake and you are not allowed to do that.

 

[ShroudedOne]

That as well. Because M2K lost to Mango's Puff, can we definitively say, "Oh Marth sucks, guys." Can we say that after his loses to Peepee, or Armada? Or, should we instead acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, those players are simply playing better and have kept up with the metagame, and developed new strategies to deal with the old style of Marth?

Something else I want to touch on: M2K is the ONLY evidence we have, currently, of high level Marth (I'm not counting Peepee yet, even though his is mad good). The skill level of Marth players just isn't as high, and this is clearly evident. Marth's need to catch up with the metagame, and develop new ideas and strategies, and new answers to the issues that other characters have brought against them.

I think that explaining Marth's character flaws is a MUCH better argument than saying, "Well, there haven't been any top Marths, so..." Most of his relevant hitboxes don't cover his bottom quickly, his recovery is mediocre at best, he has a difficult time, probably moreso than anyone else, regaining his footing after being hit or knocked into the air, he is just obscene combo food...but these are difficulties that Marth players can overcome.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ice isn't an example of high level Marth?

 

[Mew2King]

I actually legitimately honestly think marth is not as good as people think due to lack of top level options compared to the other characters with better up close moves. I've never really found marths difficult to fight either, for like 6 years now. This is including Ken/Azen's prime. I've beaten both Ken and Azen in sets with Fox and Marth both, in all 4 combinations possible, this was before I picked up a good sheik also or got to try my other characters out. In fact I've 4 stocked Azen in tourney in marth dittos in his prime (end of 06).

Despite this, I still believe my 07 marth could **** a lot of things back when I practiced and didn't play brawl. I think brawl messed me up. Not a lot. Just a little, but enough that i lose a lot of close games that i otherwise probably wouldn't due to small errors that add up that wouldn't happen in old days before brawl. It probably made me lose tons of sets I would have otherwise won. Anyway, that's my honest opinion on marth, overrated, but still extremely good. In 07, I used to be able to jv 5 stock a LOT of players, even good players, with marth, in both friendlies and tournaments. I did it like once or twice every tournament on average, and i went to a lot of tournaments.

I also was a lot better with marth overall when i only used him and didn't play other characters. I stopped cuz:
1) got bored (I get really bored of using only 1 char in this game that's why I use like 7, but I never really focus on just 1).
2) brawl
3) I believe he's limited in his options (or good options, and overall risk/reward scenarios in many important high-level situations. Sheik for example, has a fast nair OOS, a faster roll, faster dodge, and better shield. That's 4 superior shield-based things. It's honestly very significant vs fox and especially falco).

I do believe if this game was ONLY Final Destination, and no other stage, then Marth would be the best character in the game, losing head to head vs sheik, but going 55 45 or better with all the other top tiers and high tiers. Marth struggles a lot with KOing when fox/falco aim for the top platform, and chain grabs are also really bad in those situations with a top platform.

Unfortunately he sucks on counterpick stages, and really sucks in teams. His main use is on FD. It's not even that marth is bad either, it's just he's not in the same class, option wise, as the 4 above him. His frames aren't good enough once you get inside him. Like sure, he has options to get away, but I'm talking risk/reward ratios. It's overall very bad in those situations, and they are forced upon him a lot. Sheik does not suffer this weakness. Marth can't really do anything about shine-grab. Actually most characters, except Fox, can't do much about it. Even if I rolled away, Falco's not at a disadvantage, it's just an evened out situaton. If falco shine-grabs, he has like a +2, and +1 when stale, advantage for grabbing even before I can frame-perfect grab. It's pretty dumb. If falco hits me with shine, and misses the grab part of the shine-grab, I am still in enough hitstun to be comboed off of it with falco's double jump Uair after the grab-lag ends. I think Fox's shine-grab is not as good because if I get shined by Fox and fox's grab misses, unless he is REALLY close and ALSO sliding towards me (meaning it can't be done after a Nair for example), i just get shined away for 4 damage and it's not a big deal.

 

[Max?]

Good post m2k.

Kage, I can see what you're talking about. While I'm a little surprised to see his placement so high, I can believe it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, M2K, that was more of what I was looking for, when I was curious about his weaknesses. Very informative. Thanks.

I don't exactly agree with Puff being tied with Fox, can you explain what your reasoning is there, if you don't mind?

 

[Deleted member]

kage if you seriously think that marths can't handle ganon's dashdance, you are way outplaying the marths. that's a good thing for you IMO, so take it as a compliment.

i really don't think that a single ice climber is bottom tier.

 

[knightpraetor]

that shine grab only matters because freaking lasers make it too easy to get pinned and powershielding is too hard to do consistently unless you practice it daily which no one wants to do for tourneys

btw, since it was mentioned, how much faster is sheik's nair out of shield compared to marth's nair out of shield? does marth's nair not come out after shine before another aerial and sheik's does?

 

[Divinokage]

kage if you seriously think that marths can't handle ganon's dashdance, you are way outplaying the marths. that's a good thing for you IMO, so take it as a compliment.

i really don't think that a single ice climber is bottom tier.

I know they can but that doesn't mean I can't do it either just because Marth is faster in general. Doing tricky things like that can mess up people's mind very quickly, especially in close situations or positions. If Ganon stands still in that matchup, it's very bad. You always have to keep the Marth guessing. It's almost like you make it seem all I can do is Fair. lol.

I dont know the exact frames but Sheik's Nair OOS comes out almost right away since her hitbox comes out low at first. However for Marth if you Nair OOS, his jump is far slower already and the time it takes for the hitbox to come out is also kinda slow.

 

[Archangel]

That as well. Because M2K lost to Mango's Puff, can we definitively say, "Oh Marth sucks, guys." Can we say that after his loses to Peepee, or Armada? Or, should we instead acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, those players are simply playing better and have kept up with the metagame, and developed new strategies to deal with the old style of Marth?

Something else I want to touch on: M2K is the ONLY evidence we have, currently, of high level Marth (I'm not counting Peepee yet, even though his is mad good). The skill level of Marth players just isn't as high, and this is clearly evident. Marth's need to catch up with the metagame, and develop new ideas and strategies, and new answers to the issues that other characters have brought against them.

I think that explaining Marth's character flaws is a MUCH better argument than saying, "Well, there haven't been any top Marths, so..." Most of his relevant hitboxes don't cover his bottom quickly, his recovery is mediocre at best, he has a difficult time, probably moreso than anyone else, regaining his footing after being hit or knocked into the air, he is just obscene combo food...but these are difficulties that Marth players can overcome.

go to the graveyard a.k.a. Marth boards and dig through past post. All of Marth's flaws and have been pointed out twice in the past 2 years. Go do some homework...most likely nobody is going to explain it to you hear because....it gets tiresome explaining the same things every day for years.

Edit: I was wrong. Jason still feels like explaining it. Good Job M2K.

 

[ShroudedOne]

If only that were the case...but most of what I see is "Marth doesn't win nationals" and "people have figured him out," without really elaborating on why as it relates to his weaknesses.

I have been in the Marth boards. Niko made a very good post compiling a LOT of Marth's weaknesses. I just don't see that same rational approach to evaluating why he is a bad character in here.

As far as I know, almost no one has really been explaining on the boards his character weaknesses.

You said it yourself. Pointed out "twice" in the last two years. :\