Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

I think tournament results are a good indicator of general power level.

 

[R:U:N]

I prefer not to look at tournaments results religiously when making a tier list because they're influenced more by player skill than character viability. Armada has consistently placed higher in national/international events than anyone in our current era, and he does it with a character that is clearly not the best in the game. It ends up being a case of "This character is good because a really good player uses him" rather than "This character is good because this character is good"

I'd definitely agree with this, while it might be apparent that there's a trend that a lot of people who play fox win tournaments, it's important to keep in mind that if the only factor to tournament wins was the character played, then anyone could play fox and win a tournament. The fact is that there are plenty of really skilled smashers out there who can beat a fox with a character considered to be far worse than him according to the tier list, like mario or something, but that's no reason to change the tier list, the fact remains that fox is overall a better character, the fox was just outplayed by the mario.

 

[odinNJ]

I think tournament results are a good indicator of general power level.

This is only true if the character is played by a feasible amount of people.

 

[The Star King]

How is Luigi underplayed? I always thought he was weirdly popular - I see a ****ton of people playing him compared to other characters around his level. It's just that most of them don't make it far and you don't see the in bracket.

 

[odinNJ]

Ive only seen a few weegs who are good, most recently a weeg named Abate won a local tourney that included teczero, but besides that, I see a lack of them.

 

[Kal]

I don't like Luigi. Everybody uses him at low tier events. Kind of takes the fun out.

 

[tarheeljks]

This is only true if the character is played by a feasible amount of people.

how much do you believe character selection reflects character viability? i think it is safe to consider character popularity to be at least somewhat linked to character strength. there is some wisdom in crowds--obv up for debate how much lol-- but if players will tend to gravitate to stronger characters, then the results will offer general info about character ability (as long as they are taken on a wide range of players of course). so basically i agree w/him

edit: a character's representation within the player pool, or the lack thereof, says a lot

 

[Varist]

I think tournament results are a good indicator of general power level.

i think saiyan scouters are a good indicator of general power level.

 

[-TK-]

Personally... I think they have to update this Tier List...

 

[Deleted member]

I'm really proud of you guys as a group. The tournament results vs character goodness always comes up with newer posters and tier lists, but this is the first time I've seen the majority of posters agree that tournament results are the best method to judge characters by. Good work guys.

For newer players, you have to understand that character goodness is decided by many things, including players, the current rule set(s), metagame considerations, and so on. The tier list is fairly dynamic and changes with the game's life span if done properly. It is simply easier to assume that characters draw equally skilled players so as to dismiss it as a variable. From there, the MBR adds some subjective voting as a check to freedom of movement, so for example Peach can't be the best character in the game right now even though she's winning the big events. Tournament results offer irrefutable evidence of these character shifts and keep us honest in our evaluations.

 

[Renth]

I'm really proud of you guys as a group. The tournament results vs character goodness always comes up with newer posters and tier lists, but this is the first time I've seen the majority of posters agree that tournament results are the best method to judge characters by. Good work guys.

For newer players, you have to understand that character goodness is decided by many things, including players, the current rule set(s), metagame considerations, and so on. The tier list is fairly dynamic and changes with the game's life span if done properly. It is simply easier to assume that characters draw equally skilled players so as to dismiss it as a variable. From there, the MBR adds some subjective voting as a check to freedom of movement, so for example Peach can't be the best character in the game right now even though she's winning the big events. Tournament results offer irrefutable evidence of these character shifts and keep us honest in our evaluations.

If you're newer players listen to this guy ^

Do yourselves a favor, don't say anything stupid in his presence.

 

[odinNJ]

It is simply easier to assume that characters draw equally skilled players so as to dismiss it as a variable.

This is what I was worried about.
If we can actually assume this then tournament results are a very good basis.

 

[Kal]

I have to admit, I find "the majority shares my opinion right now, good work" to be a hilarious sentiment.

 

[Strong Badam]

For the record, I disagree with using tournament results so religiously to determine character viability. I think if Melee was a more widespread game with more top level players, it'd probably be pretty accurate, but historically there's been a lot of character density toward Fox/Falco/Falcon, and not so many for others, so it skews tournament results due to talented players using popular characters. Hell, it took us until 2010 to finally put Jigglypuff up there. It wasn't because the character was bad, but because no one wanted to play the boring pink puff ball until Mango/Hbox showed us what was up. We also put Marth up at 2nd, even though I've never thought Marth was that good. And lastly, Falco was placed at 4th, which is laughable, as there are people even now arguing that Falco is the best character.

 

[The Star King]

I have to admit, I find "the majority shares my opinion right now, good work" to be a hilarious sentiment.

This Umbreon guy is almost as obnoxiously arrogant as I am

 

[Kal]

You're actually quite lovable, The Star King. Like Wall-E.

How can you not love that little guy?

 

[Strong Badam]

I thought you hated Disney

 

[The Star King]

You're actually quite lovable, The Star King. Like Wall-E.

How can you not love that little guy?

Tempted to sig this and make Wall-E my avatar but I JUST changed my avatar and sig so maybe later

 

[Kal]

I thought you hated Disney

Does Pixar count as Disney?

 

[JPOBS]

And lastly, Falco was placed at 4th, which is laughable, as there are people even now arguing that Falco is the best character.

Falco being at 4th actually makes sense from a perspective of cumulative matchups though. His matchup scheme is like, 50-50 all the way down to Falcon, and then stuff like stupid pikachu being decent against him, and low tiers in general having silly 0-death combos on him in a lot of situations, I could see falco being anywhere from 1st-5th honestly.

Considering that a lot of people argue that tournament results shouldn't be the deciding factor, and we should look as "the character" in a vacuum, falco should actually go down. His matchups are hella mediocre. (not this isn't my opinion. I'm playing devils advocate for people who dont want t use tourny results)

 

[KirbyKaze]

i think saiyan scouters are a good indicator of general power level.

I disagree. They seem kind of flimsy and explode a lot.

 

[Kal]

Do they explode? I thought you had to crush them in your hand.

 

[odinNJ]

the old models had to be crushed by hand, but the newer ones explode automatically after 9000, Im really glad, I used to get hand cramps from crushing the darn things.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Do they explode? I thought you had to crush them in your hand.

Zarbon's exploded because it was reading Vegeta's power level.

 

[Kal]

What's a Zarbon?

 

[Strong Badam]

Falco being at 4th actually makes sense from a perspective of cumulative matchups though. His matchup scheme is like, 50-50 all the way down to Falcon, and then stuff like stupid pikachu being decent against him, and low tiers in general having silly 0-death combos on him in a lot of situations, I could see falco being anywhere from 1st-5th honestly.

Considering that a lot of people argue that tournament results shouldn't be the deciding factor, and we should look as "the character" in a vacuum, falco should actually go down. His matchups are hella mediocre. (not this isn't my opinion. I'm playing devils advocate for people who dont want t use tourny results)

lol
low tiers having death combos on him is silly because it applies to Fox too
and Falco has even match-ups with the characters that matter; that's a good thing. especially when marth loses to sheik, and puff loses to fox, and Peach loses to puff/fox, i can't see him being argued any lower than 2nd.

 

[choknater]

i like the new latest brawl tier list haha

 

[odinNJ]

I like the new melee list...
oh wait

 

[KrIsP!]

What's a Zarbon?

Kal, I know your bored but please try to keep up.

 

[Kal]

k, sorry, ill do my best

 

[KrIsP!]

I think I did it wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3BQu1vpPKU

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

We should just have separate lists for the different ways of ranking. Matchup chart, character ranking list (do we need a new name for this? I stole from brawl's), and percieved ranking by overall strength.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

I think I did it wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3BQu1vpPKU

Hyper-linking the words in the first post would've been epic.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think Peach beats Falco. And Marth's uthrow ***** her really badly. And Fox isn't quite as bad as we thought. Puff is also sort of kind of maybe manageable, imo.

So, I mean, it's not farfetched that she should be above Marth on the tier list, if only it weren't for weird things that could come up but don't.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How many players do we need playing a character at a certain level in order to say the character is that good?


The great thing about Peach is that she can consistently look for trades and win with that alone. That is something Marth cannot do and probably a major reason why Marth does poorly; he is the worst top tier at trading hits.

 

[t3h Icy]

Can we have a new tier list too?

Something liiiiiiiike

Fox, Falco
Jigglypuff, Peach, Sheik
Marth, Falcon, Ice Climbers
Doc, Samus, Ganondorf, Pikachu
Luigi, Mario, DK, Link, Young Link
Zelda, Yoshi, Mewtwo, Roy, Mr. G&W
Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu

:D

 

[Armada]

How many players do we need playing a character at a certain level in order to say the character is that good?


The great thing about Peach is that she can consistently look for trades and win with that alone. That is something Marth cannot do and probably a major reason why Marth does poorly; he is the worst top tier at trading hits.

Win with that alone?
Ofc that is something Peach is really good at but I think you overrate it a bit.

And yeah Marth is not good when it comes to tradeing hits. But all the chars have something they are kinda weak at.

And about the first qoute. If 50% start playing Pichu (and simillar results to MK in brawl) will Pichu be the best in the game even if the potencial with him is the worse and it only is many good players that are playing him.

Im not saying that will ever happend but think IF it would happen. I think tier discussions is more and more about results and not understanding and that is why people have harder to improve.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

People are too hard on Pichu.

Fastest character in the game shouldn't be underrated, even if his character design is balls.

The better player can almost always win with Pichu if luck is on his side, can't really say the same for Bowser.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Win with that alone?
Ofc that is something Peach is really good at but I think you overrate it a bit.

And yeah Marth is not good when it comes to tradeing hits. But all the chars have something they are kinda weak at.

And about the first qoute. If 50% start playing Pichu (and simillar results to MK in brawl) will Pichu be the best in the game even if the potencial with him is the worse and it only is many good players that are playing him.

Im not saying that will ever happend but think IF it would happen. I think tier discussions is more and more about results and not understanding and that is why people have harder to improve.

Am I overrating peach's success with trades? If every hit in a match was a trade, who would beat peach? In some matchups/situations I've seen you just look to trade hits and it works really well.

I don't think the other part was directed at me, but I can't cut it out on my phone

 

[Warhawk]

People are too hard on Pichu.

Fastest character in the game shouldn't be underrated, even if his character design is balls.

The better player can almost always win with Pichu if luck is on his side, can't really say the same for Bowser.

You can't really say that about Pichu either in all honesty, especially since luck usually plays so little a role in matches that its hard to define something as luck over something that could have been prevented by the other player.