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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

odinNJ

odinNJ

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This thread is more for comedy and fresh opinions than anything related to tiers.
 
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stavie33

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So anyone care to give me more detalied information? Went through Marth matchup threads today, and most marth players in the threads, and in the other character threads don't even see spacies as disadvantageous matchups, just sheik. Regardless of whether that's true or not, I'm still confused as to why the MU's knocked him down THAT much. Jiggly has way worse matchups and is higher due to his recovery, wall of pain, brutal aerial game, and gay *** camping. So why do Marth's IMO fantastic other attributes not help him above Sheik or Jiggly?

On another note, friends and I are debating looking at recent tourneys and Armada being amazing whether peach has the potential to move up or Armada's just that good. Or both.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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Other than Fox and ICs*, Sheik and Puff are the same or better than Marth vs everything else in the field. And often it's the latter.

Marth is bad at actually killing his opponents. Sheik and Puff aren't. That's the difference.

*This one is under revision right now. But I think Marth is better than Sheik vs ICs (Puff I'm less sure because of how gay she can play on paper with platform camping and based on how Wobbles describes the MU).

I'm not explicitly mentioning Falco because he's a grey area. I'm not sure whether people think he ***** Puff or Puff ***** him or it's close right now. Sheik vs Falco seems to have a bunch of opinions on it too. Same with Marth vs Falco. So I'm not touching that one.
 
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stavie33

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Bing said:
You say he's fallen so much... but he hasnt...

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_NTSC_tier_lists
Click to expand...

he went from 2 to 5, completely out of S tier, meaning that there is a large enough gap between him and the other S tier characters for him to be considered a different tier. I don't see the difference. Actually, I think Marth does pretty well against Falco and Fox, has a bit more trouble with Fox though if you know how to deal with lasers but still. I mean it's not that big a deal so I can move on and all I'm just wondering when this 'gap' appeared, if any new openings were found in marth that are punishable or weren't realized before (or vice versa other characters were found to have traits far more capable a la JP), that's all. Cause yeah dropping 4 places is kinda big IMO.
 
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stavie33

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KirbyKaze said:
Other than Fox and ICs*, Sheik and Puff are the same or better than Marth vs everything else in the field. And often it's the latter.

Marth is bad at actually killing his opponents. Sheik and Puff aren't. That's the difference.

*This one is under revision right now. But I think Marth is better than Sheik vs ICs (Puff I'm less sure because of how gay she can play on paper with platform camping and based on how Wobbles describes the MU).

I'm not explicitly mentioning Falco because he's a grey area. I'm not sure whether people think he ***** Puff or Puff ***** him or it's close right now. Sheik vs Falco seems to have a bunch of opinions on it too. Same with Marth vs Falco. So I'm not touching that one.
Click to expand...
k that's true and makes sense for Sheik. I thought Puff had worse matchups all around the board than Marth? Guess the matchup charts I've seen are old

EDIT: Not being able to kill is a big deal, though he can't gimp like JP and Sheik, I always thought his edge guarding was great, his knockback got him a good amount of cheap kills, and he can gimp and has platform advantage. I don't really understand 'can't kill people', but I can understand that he doesn't gimp as well as JP and Sheik. Guess I just don't know. But yeah not killings a big deal.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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Puff gets a big boost for being one of the only characters that's good against Sheik. She also seems stupidly good against Peach when you get to higher levels (at the moment).

The MU charts are largely terrible, don't trust them.



edit:

By "not being able to kill", I'm basically referring to the fact that he doesn't have 'safe' moves he can throw around to get kills a la space animal back air, Fox dair (because it links to shine, which links to up smash), Falco dair, shines, Jigglypuff's bair, Sheik's everything, Peach nair, Falcon knee, Falcon bair, etc. He also doesn't have a guaranteed, reliable 2-step (throw) combo like Fox's up throw > up air or Sheik's d-throw > fair that enables him to end stocks at a reasonable percent.

Requiring him to edgeguard every single stock away makes him have to do work in situations where other characters can just slot one of their 2-steps in and finish the opponent. Having a 2-step that kills like that also makes completing combos in a really successful way really easy because you can just look for a way to set up that finish (or a similar one). Marth's finishers are way more situational and require a lot of planning and responsiveness that the other good characters... don't need.

I could get stretch this explanation further with various ideas on how Marth has to strike a balance between going for kills and not going for kills but that's largely pointless at this point. The fact is, all that nonsense above is work that Marth has to do but his competitors don't. This is a weakness. In a game where people can kill each other from one hit for seemingly no reason, having your combos not kill is a problem.

Puff also shares the weakness in that her combo game kind of dries up at times but her ability to spontaneously kill out of nowhere (Rest & bair chains) and resistance to death & nonsense helps cover this up.

He's still above some of his competitors because even though that weakness is a big one, Falcon is more vulnerable to death (in a general sense) and has much worse time with Falco and Puff than Marth does (IMO). Peach is debatable at this point but I think her crappy MU with Fox (and horrible MU with Puff) keeps her below for now.
 
JPOBS

JPOBS

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Bing said:
This is not true, once and awhile we have serious character and tier related discussions. Like a little while ago we discusses the Mario/Doc thingymabob.
Click to expand...
I'd like to humbly announce myself as being the catalyst for all worthwhile discussion in this thread.

My peach > marth synopsis a while back lead to some good debate. And I also brought up the doc discussion of which you speak.

For my next trick, I put forward the notion that Falcon is top tier. Beats peach and marth, even with puff, fox and sheik, and losing slightly to falco.

Discuss.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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john! said:
what do you mean by "marth has a hard time killing people"?

sure, he doesn't have an easy-to-land kill move, but his combos are great and his edgeguarding is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Other than vs space animals and Falcon, his combos are very DIable and send people up. Up is survivable. His aerial combo finishers suck unless you set up a spike or the most perfect reverse up+B ever.

His edgeguarding isn't better than the other top characters (except Puff maybe). I personally think that vs most of the relevant characters, the spacies and Sheik have better edgeguarding than Marth. I only think Marth's edgeguarding is stupidly ridiculous omg godlike vs spacies. After that, it becomes pretty meh (relative to spacies and Sheik). And, as I've stated, his issues with being so high have nothing to do with how he fares vs spacies (well, I said Fox, but Falco is a grey area in terms of power level).

Not having a kill move you can safely fish for sucks.

Any other questions?

JPOBS - no.
 
Kal

Kal

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I would've taken that bait. Good thing I've been preoccupied with Dead Space.
 
Kal

Kal

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Adam Baldwin is in it, right? I liked him as John Casey in Chuck. Chuck was pretty awesome.
 
Kal

Kal

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There is this new thing called BitTorrent that I would happily suggest. The details are probably not able to be discussed within Smashboard's terms of service. In which case, I would be happy to help via AIM.
 
D

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the amount of bad from this thread in the last 24 hours is overwhelming.
 
stelzig

stelzig

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KirbyKaze said:
Other than Fox and ICs*, Sheik and Puff are the same or better than Marth vs everything else in the field. And often it's the latter.

Marth is bad at actually killing his opponents. Sheik and Puff aren't. That's the difference.
Click to expand...
If marth still doesn't lose the other matchups, then it matters a whole lot more that marth is better at a matchup that the others actually lose. Especially when this matchup is against the top tier. But I take you do think that marth actually losses some matchup that they win - just wanted to to point out (once again), that it isn't really all that important how much you win with as long as you win.

Stavie: Last time I pointed this out, I actually started hearing alot of marth mains saying he does have losing matchups. I still think some people do place him wrongly relative to how they place his matchups. Recovery, abbility to kill, whatever, it is all already reflected in the matchups. I don't understand how people can convince themselves to place a character that low when they only think he loses to sheik.

(idk what to think about marth myself anymore, but I think people who want to claim him as bad/falling, at least need to specifically point out where in his matchup chart this is actually the case instead of just pointing out his general weaknesses)
 
TheLake

TheLake

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vmans yoshi rocks

firefly is god tier

and ZELDAS BEST MOVE ISNT F SMASH GOD DAMNIT

STOP SAYING THAT

ITS NOT TRUE

AND YOU WILL BURN IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE!!!

I want to start watching game of thrones and reading one piece

but thats where im at in life.
 
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KingofCereal

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Even if Marth is falling, the farthest I can see him fall is to below Peach. He will still be beating Falcons and ICs. FFJSPMCfIcDGSPYlDLLMYZGMNBPK
 
D

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TheLake said:
and ZELDAS BEST MOVE ISNT F SMASH GOD DAMNIT
Click to expand...
everyone i play says that zelda's fsmash is broken/stupid/ something to that effect. i agree with them. pullback crazy range/priority hits on the edge and kills really well. at the very least it's better than her bair, which is still better than all of her other moves.
 
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