Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Nogzor'z]

So help me out here...
I'm hearing gimmick being used to describe yoshi, I'm confused about what is gimmicky? And what exactly is gimmick meaning in this sense. That the things only work when the opponent doesn't know about it or that they are hardly applied in current yoshi playstyle?

Gimmick

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Haha I had this exact discussion with Scar last week. There are many levels of gimmicks. Usually I just think about Tactical gimmicks and Strategic gimmicks. Tactical gimmicks are things like peach dsmashing on a platform. Linear tactics that "shouldn't work". Strategic gimmicks are broader, such as picking a certain character because you think the opponent won't know the match-up; once you play someone who does know the match-up, you lose.


I wouldn't worry about someone calling your yoshi gimmicky. It just sounds like someone complaining, like saying, "your sheik is gay," or something.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Heh I wouldn't let it get to me if I was called gimmicky but thanks )

I'm more interested in if people would say the tactics yoshi has are gimmicky. Things like DJC counter, Parry tactics, light shield mechanics, little shield stun, and stuff like that. And if so why and under what category of gimmicks would they fall under.

 

[Bing]

Basically I think its simply that characters such as Yoshi dont have auto combos and simple options and that you have to rig random **** together half the time to be affective.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Basically I think its simply that characters such as Yoshi dont have auto combos and simple options and that you have to rig random **** together half the time to be affective.

I feel like "simple options" is a vague statement that covers up uncertainty in what yoshi can actually do...

I also dislike "auto combos". You mean like U-air>U-air>Uair>.... or perhaps D-throw> Nair. or B-air >D-smash? Yoshi seems to have plenty of "Auto combos" (they rely on the opponent not combo DIing and even then may still combo)
If you mean completely inescapable, then I feel as though there are really not that many "auto combos" in general.

 

[Bing]

Yeah im refering to combos that arent exactly escapeable.

Yes Yoshi does have Uair-Uair-Uair etc etc. But you said it yourself that you dont like using Auto combos which could be why it been called Gimmicky.

 

[Beat!]

When I hear "gimmick", I basically think of something that only works because your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it.

There's nothing "gimmicky" about auto-combos, as long as they're true combos.

 

[leffen]

The only "gimmick" yoshi has is spamming rolls (look at how vman uses them) and egglay


egg lay is ****ing horrible

parry and everything else is really fkn legit but 99% of yoshi mains are not using anything to its potential because playing on your opponent not knowing **** works better if you're not aiming for the top

 

[Nogzor'z]

The only "gimmick" yoshi has is spamming rolls (look at how vman uses them) and egglay


egg lay is ****ing horrible

parry and everything else is really fkn legit but 99% of yoshi mains are not using anything to its potential because playing on your opponent not knowing **** works better if you're not aiming for the top

That's sort of what I wanted to get at...

 

[Divinokage]

Everything can combo if the DI is right. =P

 

[stavie33]

sorry to be a total nub here but can anyone explain to me why Marth dropped so much in the recent tier list?

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

cuz Ken died

 

[Deleted member]

real talk, fsmash is zelda's best move.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Usmash, bro

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

grab is obv better

 

[Bing]

sorry to be a total nub here but can anyone explain to me why Marth dropped so much in the recent tier list?

Because the characters above him are better and have better MU's

real talk, fsmash is zelda's best move.

lolol Yessss

 

[stavie33]

According to the info I know, they don't all have better MU's. He has better MU's than jiggly puff on average, and while Sheik has a great MU against Marth, and better MU's against low tier characters, Marth has only 2 unfavorable MU's and 2 even MU's iirc, where Sheik has 3 unfavorable MU's and 2 even ones? Could be wrong though. But it's more than just the MU's, last time I checked Marth still is considered to have among the best grabs, ariels, SHFFL's, knock back/KO power, wave dashes, mix ups, and just is an overall threat. Not saying that Jiggles and Sheik AREN'T better than him, it's just last time I played intensively and was paying attention was when Marth was number 2 on the tier list. I stopped for a while, and now came back and noticed he dropped to 5. I'd be curious in a little more detailed explanation than 'bad MU'. And I'm sure there's reason I'm not saying he should be higher, I just am curious about the new specifics that have come to light. It could be due to his recovery being easy to edge guard and not having a ton of options, but I don't think that by itself is the cause.

And if it is strictly due to the MU's then k I guess I don't know current MU's well.

 

[Bing]

Im sorry, I ment to write more, its not just about MU's... There are other factors, like recovery, punishes etc. Marth does only have two bad MUs

I do think that he should maybe be switched with Sheik...

 

[stelzig]

It is all about matchups. Matchups are influenced by the other things you mentioned. Alot of people seem to place him alot lower than they should if you look at their opinion on his individual matchups.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So help me out here...
I'm hearing gimmick being used to describe yoshi, I'm confused about what is gimmicky? And what exactly is gimmick meaning in this sense. That the things only work when the opponent doesn't know about it or that they are hardly applied in current yoshi playstyle?

Gimmick

I feel a gimmick is some aspect of the character or style that deviates strongly from conventional play. Usually they're way more effective in the short term, but this is not always the case.

If you are upset by my choice of wording, then I'm fine with choosing another one. That said, I feel the fact that Yoshi is weird is one of his best features. He comes with some fairly strong mechanics (in some respects) that demand a different strategic approach (for some characters). I feel it's easier to find people that 'suck' versus Yoshi than versus a lot of the other low tiers just because fighting him requires consideration of his weirdness. This is an advantage in competitive play. The fact that a lot of his weirdness is actually solid is just gravy.

Compare this to Mr. Game & Watch, DK, etc. They're such... normal characters. They might have one or two things you need to worry about (DK's giant punch, etc) but overall you can fight them with the conventional bullcrap you use in all your matchups and it will probably work out the same. No weird shield to worry about, no parry to think about, no DJC armor, you edgeguard them the same way you do vs every character, etc.

So, yeah. I feel being weird is an advantage. Puff was argued to be the top of top tier for a while largely because of HBox but also because you can't fight her the same way you fight other characters (which made many people suck against her).

 

[Bones0]

When I use the word "gimmicky" I am usually referring to someone relying on a tactic heavily. So if a Yoshi parries because it's a good decision, that's not really a gimmick. If a Yoshi goes for parries the entire game it makes their play style seem very gimmicky because of how they are relying on that tactic. This also sort of includes the definition of the tactic only working vs. someone who doesn't know how to deal with it. Obviously most Yoshi players won't spam parries if their opponent is dealing with them correctly.

 

[Bing]

We need a sticky that is devoted to Smash termanology.

Would be pretty useful, just saiyan.

 

[john!]

there's a sticky called "official everything thread", it's in there.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97603

 

[JPOBS]

Marth is garbage. should be in the tier with falcon and ics

A gimmick can be literally anything provided these two criteria are filled:
1. Your opponent doesn't know how to beat it
2. There is a relatively easy way to stop it.

High tiers have gimmicks, for example. Falco repeatedly downthrow chaingrabbing fox. This only works insofar as the fox doesn't know how to DI away->shine. So its a gimmick. But you never see it in competitively play because everyone knows about it.

Low tiers are much more reliant on gimmick play by abusing step 1 because the opponent doesn;t know about step 2.

Over reliance on a given strategy isn't a gimmick though. Marth's will dash dance until the end of time, but it's not a gimmick, that's just how the character works.

 

[KingofCereal]

The big distinction you are missing between "gimmicks" and what you call "weirdness" lie in their effectiveness over time. A gimmick will work once and probably never again because it is unexpected and different, but after that first time is easy to read, avoid, and punish. Yoshi having DJC armor is not a gimmick it is weirdness. Even good players may get tripped up by the exact mechanics of it possibly multiple times in a match. (don't mean Yoshi don't get punished to **** too) I think DK punch the same principle, the same way a shine spike is the same principle. They are unique attributes to a character that create advantages.
A gimmick in my mind is more like Pichu's side-b. Fully charged it'll kill ya, but I've only seen that happen once in a match, and didn't find it. If you're woefully unprepared, gimmicks will get you every time. If you're good it'll happen once. Weirdness will always be effective.

Guess we're all saying the same thing.

 

[stavie33]

Marth is garbage. should be in the tier with falcon and ics

 

[Bing]

Didnt Know Falcon shared a tier with ICs(who have their own tier)

 

[KirbyKaze]

The big distinction you are missing between "gimmicks" and what you call "weirdness" lie in their effectiveness over time. A gimmick will work once and probably never again because it is unexpected and different, but after that first time is easy to read, avoid, and punish. Yoshi having DJC armor is not a gimmick it is weirdness. Even good players may get tripped up by the exact mechanics of it possibly multiple times in a match. (don't mean Yoshi don't get punished to **** too) I think DK punch the same principle, the same way a shine spike is the same principle. They are unique attributes to a character that create advantages.

A gimmick in my mind is more like Pichu's side-b. Fully charged it'll kill ya, but I've only seen that happen once in a match, and didn't find it. If you're woefully unprepared, gimmicks will get you every time. If you're good it'll happen once. Weirdness will always be effective.

Guess we're all saying the same thing.

I absolutely loathe your examples. That said, I don't disagree with what you're saying in principle.

 

[JPOBS]

Falcon is in all tiers and he is in none.

 

[Strong Badam]

falcon is probably the best example of a gimmick

 

[Nogzor'z]

Heh thanks for the responses.
Really thought provoking.

 

[Bones0]

Falcon has no losing matchups.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Um....inb4trolling?

But seriously, I thought the ENTIRE community agreed that Falcon loses hardcore to spacies. Frankly, I don't see how he doesn't.

How doesn't he?

 

[Bing]

Falcon can just knee spacies


EZ MU IS EZ

 

[The Star King]

Um....inb4trolling?

But seriously, I thought the ENTIRE community agreed that Falcon loses hardcore to spacies. Frankly, I don't see how he doesn't.

How doesn't he?

Stop. Taking. Obvious. Jokes. Seriously.

You are the worst about this, dude.

 

[Dees]

Um....inb4trolling?

But seriously, I thought the ENTIRE community agreed that Falcon loses hardcore to spacies. Frankly, I don't see how he doesn't.

How doesn't he?

Son I am dissapoint

 

[ShroudedOne]

That's why the "inb4trolling."

But it's Bones. He said "Peach beats both spacies" and said he wasn't trolling. If it were anyone else.

 

[Strong Badam]

shroudedone nooooooo

 

[twizzlerj]

lol the sea of troll posts mixed with the posts of people who don't know what they are talking i feel bad for people who still try in this thread

 

[john!]

trolls, counter-trolls, trolling victims, and trolls of trolls.

all are one in this thread.