Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[past_b]

i just wanted to address something i was reading from a handful of pages back in regard to falco's placement on the tier list.

it was being argued that falco could very well be the best player in the game. i believe this is true in lower level and intermediate play. falco has lasers, a great spacing game, can really rack up damage due to a good combo game, great pressure game, etc...

however, i dont think he is the best in top levels of play. in top play, players know how to maximize punishment to falco when he messes up, unlike in lower play. the cost of missing a waveland, tech, l-cancel, etc is huge. you tech wrong (or not at all), you can die. when getting hit off stage and you di poorly (down or whatever), you die due to poor recovery. falco can die at 30 percent due to this reason. falco cannot trade hits with other characters because the other character will always live longer than he.

falco gets punished too hard in top levels of play to be the best character in the game. i guess all the top tier characters have their flaws though! falco is awesome though, i like him haha.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

At top levels of play, every characters gets punished stupidly hard for the slightest mistake, not just Falco.

 

[Strong Badam]

ppl try to CP falco against me and get wrecked
i only lose the the legit falco mains

vanz and i almost took down eggm & shiz in friendlies LOL it was tight wish that **** was recorded

real talk tho falco-dk is 90-10
gotta outplay 'em

 

[past_b]

Well yeah I understand everyone gets punished at top levels I just think falco gets punished the hardest

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah
it's too bad that making mistakes is harder
because if you make a mistake you have a frame 1 invincible move that 0-death combos

 

[KingofCereal]

I wanted to ask this before the conversation inevitably (and too quickly) moved back to Joe Flacco Lumbirds, but is it inconceivable that the Links do better than Mario/Luigi? I feel that especially YL and especially now have proven themselves. They have better projectiles, better range, (arguably) better kill moves... Could it be Pika, YL, Link, DK, Luigi, Mario? or something like that?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

They all might as well be tied, their MUs against the top tiers are so close to one another.

 

[Strong Badam]

Pika > DK
DK ~ YL/Luigi
Mario > Link

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What does the ~ mean?

 

[Max?]

I'm pretty convinced DK is just above the non usable characters, and at the bottom of the "somewhat, not even, sorta kinda not really viable" characters.

 

[Strong Badam]

What does the ~ mean?

about the same level as

 

[past_b]

yeah
it's too bad that making mistakes is harder
because if you make a mistake you have a frame 1 invincible move that 0-death combos

Blah
10 blahs

 

[Bones0]

i just wanted to address something i was reading from a handful of pages back in regard to falco's placement on the tier list.

it was being argued that falco could very well be the best player in the game. i believe this is true in lower level and intermediate play. falco has lasers, a great spacing game, can really rack up damage due to a good combo game, great pressure game, etc...

however, i dont think he is the best in top levels of play. in top play, players know how to maximize punishment to falco when he messes up, unlike in lower play. the cost of missing a waveland, tech, l-cancel, etc is huge. you tech wrong (or not at all), you can die. when getting hit off stage and you di poorly (down or whatever), you die due to poor recovery. falco can die at 30 percent due to this reason. falco cannot trade hits with other characters because the other character will always live longer than he.

falco gets punished too hard in top levels of play to be the best character in the game. i guess all the top tier characters have their flaws though! falco is awesome though, i like him haha.

Your reasoning is lost in a sea of bias, I'm afraid. Falco is extremely popular, feels broken vs. noobs, and has good representation from top players (Mango and PP, primarily).

 

[Geenareeno]

Not saying that I agree with him, but you didn't exactly address his point. Which was at the very top level of play Falco gets punished too hard. I mean PP beat Armada at Pound 5 so I guess that kind of serves as reasoning against that.

 

[Bing]

I really disagree with the whole make a mistake and you're dead + the recovery thing.

1. At top levels, the reason why these people are pros is because they RARELY make mistakes (like RARELY = almost never)

2. When somebody gets a ko,they are either gimped via dairs or shines, or they get smashed off the the side or top... so Falco's ****ty recovery isnt a viable excuse to drop him on the tier list.

3. A Falco only loses when the opponent is better and/or outplayed them

 

[Bones0]

Not saying that I agree with him, but you didn't exactly address his point. Which was at the very top level of play Falco gets punished too hard. I mean PP beat Armada at Pound 5 so I guess that kind of serves as reasoning against that.

How is it reasoning against it? Even though PP won, he still got destroyed almost every time Armada touched him, and just like he said, PP was unable to trade with Armada because Falco dies so much earlier.

I really disagree with the whole make a mistake and you're dead + the recovery thing.

1. At top levels, the reason why these people are pros is because they RARELY make mistakes (like RARELY = almost never)

2. When somebody gets a ko,they are either gimped via dairs or shines, or they get smashed off the the side or top... so Falco's ****ty recovery isnt a viable excuse to drop him on the tier list.

3. A Falco only loses when the opponent is better and/or outplayed them

1. If you got hit, obviously you made a mistake. Derp. Even the best make multiple mistakes every stock. The game is not just a 0-death fest like 64. Go pick any GF set and you can find multiple mistakes from either player within the first 5 seconds. It's part of Melee. It's a game that can almost never be played perfectly. The best we ever get are glimpses into 5-10 second scenarios where a player happens to make all the right decisions and execute everything in just the right fashion.

2. How is his recovery irrelevant, especially when you just stated people get gimped? Go watch Armada play spacies. He gets edge guards that are almost free because Falco has such limited options. Now watch Hbox and see how much he struggles to get back on stage.

3. This is true for every matchup.

 

[Bing]

1. Getting hit isnt a mistake,its apart of the game... I agree players at the top level do make mistakes, but part of the reason they are a top player is because they make less mistakes then lower players.

2. Okay, bad termanology, its not irrelevant, but I dont agree that Falco's recovery is reasoning to drop him down the tier list.

3. Good call.

 

[The Star King]

The game is not just a 0-death fest like 64.

This is almost as bad of a misconception as the notion that Ness is a good character in 64.

ALMOST.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah 64 isn't a 0td fest haha. Its similar in mechanics/strategy to melee, but with fewer characters and a different engine. Also, yoshi can jump out of his shield.

 

[The Star King]

Meh I wouldn't say it's similar in mechanics, all three Smash games are pretty different from each other IMO. 64 is closer to Melee than Brawl though.

And yeah why can't Melee Yoshi jump out of shield not to mention half of his moves being nerfed WTF Sakurai

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well i was thinking more in terms of spacing/zoning

 

[Grim Tuesday]

From what I've played of 64, feels more similar to Brawl.

The slower footsies/spacing game feels almost exactly like when I play Brawl, it just has the major difference in that getting hit actually, well, punishes you in 64 (unlike Brawl).

 

[Bones0]

How did I know people would get caught up on a vague comment about 64's combos instead of focusing on the comparison I was trying to make?

I swear it's impossible to use any sort of hyperbole on the internet with immediately getting corrected...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Then don't make mistakes

 

[The Star King]

Don't get hit.

 

[Deleted member]

I swear it's impossible to use any sort of hyperbole on the internet with immediately getting corrected...

Then stop doing it.

 

[Bones0]

Well for 90% of people it's an effective literary tool. It's just that the 10% who open their mouths are clueless and/or want to believe they know more than everyone else.

 

[Varist]

no way it's as high as 90%. i rarely see hyperbole used successfully to such a degree. it usually discredits the poster.

and they don't want to believe they know more than everyone else. what an overstatement. no one can know more than everyone

 

[Geenareeno]

Stop exaggerating Bones.

 

[Kal]

Your hyperbole wasn't... hyperbolic enough. It just looked like you were bashing Smash 64, honestly. >_>

A hyperbole needs to be extreme, by definition. Like when you claim that players who want Brinstar legal should just play competitive Homerun Contest. That is definite hyperbole.

Just in case anyone wants a reference:

An hundred years should go to praise
Thine eyes and on thy forehead gaze;
Two hundred to adore each breast;
But thirty thousand to the rest...

just super saiyan

 

[KirbyKaze]

Zelda's best move is forward smash.

 

[choknater]

i agree with that

 

[KirbyKaze]

I still have mixed feelings about Yoshi. He seems pretty crap a lot of the time but death combos and gimmicks win games. For all intents and purposes, a stray shield parry --> gigantic combo and/or kill move is probably better than what most low tiers have as far as a shield game goes, even if it comes at the sacrifice of a WD OOS. His CC, light shield, weird shield drop mechanics, and decent evasiveness cover that hole reasonably IMO (though it does suck sometimes).

His resistance to a lot of gimping styles is also kind of nice.

I think he might be about as good as Link. Maybe better. I dunno. I have a really low opinion of Link.

I also have no idea where to place DK because he seems worse and worse every single time I look at him. His gameplay seems so normal yet crappy. Which is a really bad mix...

 

[V3ctorMan]

you know you love Yoshi KK

<3

I sure do

 

[KirbyKaze]

I hate everything.

 

[TheLake]

Zeldas best move is downsmash wtf

dont listen to the sheik guy hes bias cause shieks best move

is in fact

forwardsmash!

wtf it hits twice thats like fighting ice climbers

IN ONE PERSON!

 

[odinNJ]

Zelda's best move is obviously her Down air. Pfft scrubs. (sarcasm)

 

[Krynxe]

LOL Lake

Also, I agree with you KK. DK was last viable at top play quite a few years ago. And of course, his shield is also terrible and there's just not much he can do against characters that can't be combo'd.

I'm not sure what to think about Yoshi. It's usually just a matter of whether or not your opponent understands the MU, which most people don't. From there, it really is about the capitalization and the gimmicks. If they do understand the MU, they'll know how crappy Yoshi's options generally are and have no trouble abusing that.

One huge issue that people often have vs low tier mains is that they don't take them seriously and feel untouchable as a high tier. I've seen gimpyfish stomp a number of players just because they felt like they can just do whatever they want vs bowser. It's also a mindgame in itself, people become disappoint in themselves for losing to a low tier and become more aggressive/careless in their gameplay. Low tier mains frequently net out a lot of wins this way.

 

[Strong Badam]

Zelda's best move is still Down-B

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Zelda's best move is still Down-B

Dude that joke was already old when i joined smashboards