Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[The Good Doctor]

People never catch my trolls...

It's because you suck at it. =)

 

[Bing]

Shuddup D:

You're a meanie D:

 

[Xyzz]

It's because you suck at it. =)

actually, people not catching the troll means he did well

@ShroudedOne: One could argue, that we got Dtilt -> nair (or sometimes fair is possible, too), which works pretty decently

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

People never catch my trolls...

A good troll is never caught. Your doing things right.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@Xyzz: More often than not, I feel like that just sets up for an edge guard position, which comes down to 50/50 at best (but that does work from time to time, yes).

 

[JPOBS]

@ShroudedOne: One could argue, that we got Dtilt -> nair (or sometimes fair is possible, too), which works pretty decently

Peach has the luxury of just throwing herself at people and getting trades that somehow result in the other person dying.

 

[ShroudedOne]

She's rather easy to deny, though. She's got no range, and requires more setup than most, for her game.

(Don't get me wrong, her pressure and stuff is amazing. She just doesn't trade much if you don't let her.)

 

[The Good Doctor]

LMAO
No one saw wut i did dar?

Peach also is the character in the game to trade with others. It's annoying.

 

[Xyzz]

She's rather easy to deny, though. She's got no range, and requires more setup than most, for her game.

(Don't get me wrong, her pressure and stuff is amazing. She just doesn't trade much if you don't let her.)

^this. I always fail to see how people are angry at that part. Sure, trades are in her favor most of the time. But most top tiers got sooo good hitboxes to straight up beat her stuff, when used correctly.

@downtilt -> aerial. They just need to be at a high enough percent! :D

edit: been ninja'ed, entered the quote to correct it (:

 

[unknown522]

How many of those Foxes are actually "better" players than Axe? You also have to think about how they played the match up.

Ex. If they're following pikachu to the ledge, then yea, they're probably going to die. I'm pretty sure Mango and Lovage (?) do well vs Axe as fox.

hehe. I was saying that cuz of what you said about why jiggs should be lower. Sounds exactly the same to me, seeing as armada is the only person to beat hbox with Y.link.

I don't believe that pikachu beats fox (that would be stupid). But the same arguments could be used for why hbox loses to armada. Most foxes lose to axe due to a lack of matchup knowledge. But the best foxes still lose to him. At apex 2010 fox example, I was giving Jman a lot of advice vs pika when he was playing friendlies with axe. Most of the stuff he said he didn't know about (sadly he lost when they faced in bracket ).

Still. I think that hbox is having the same problem (where he doesn't know what he's doing), Whereas armada actually practiced the matchup for months to specifically beat him. There are some pretty visually obvious things that hbox isn't doing in the matchup. But instead is dead-set on timing him out for some reason

Also iirc, mango beats axe with falco. But you are right that lovage usually beats axe.

 

[Wobbles]

FWIW I think YLink is pretty good even when he's not trying to be a campy *******.

 

[Max?]

I think Vanz list and reasoning is pretty solid, tho I disagree with his placement of puff. Sheik should also be below falco imo, since that character is ********.

You know who's the same person? OTG and Niko45

Nah son, you and KK are definitely the same person. At least we don't go posting on each others accounts all cute like and ****.

sucks as in:
not as good as the top 5
not even close to the spacies overall imo (although he has good matchups vs themselves)

i think marth's effectiveness vs the spacies is like the only thing he has going for him these days.

Yep

Lets look at recovery in two stages: 1. getting to the edge/on stage directly then 2. getting back to the stage from the edge.

I think marth is second weakest among the top 6 at part 1 (sheik is probably first), and also second weakest at part 2 (peach) all things considered. Puff/Fox/Falco are all better at both parts than marth, and sheik is better at part 2 because her ledgedash->stuff is more safe/invincible. And Peach is better at part 1 because she can usually go high.
This is all things considered for all mixups for all characters, would you disagree?

He has problems killing in a lot of situations and lacks simple things like launcher->garuanteed kill move at high percents that other top tiers have. So he's limited to killing directly out of combos which is good and bad. Everyone can kill directly out of long combos, but when the other top characters drop combos, they can often fish for *easy launcher*->*easy finisher*. Marth has to do stuff like grab-> pivot tippered fsmash 0_o

His out of shield game leaves a lot to be desired compared to the rest of the top 6 which all have the same stuff he does, but also have shines, nairs, and DAT 2 FRAME PUFF ROLL, that marth just kinda has to deal with it

his matchup spread isn't so bad. I think he gets a huge boost going evenish with spacies. But (again, unlike the other top tiers) he doesn't dominate the mid cast. Like, marth arguably stuggles with ganon, falcon, doc, ice climbers on top of his top tier matchups. The rest of the top tiers either win these matchups significantly, or only has an odd problem here and there (like puff vs doc and stuff).

Like to hear your thoughts on this stuff.

TL;DR marth is good, but the things he does good, everyone else also does good, and the things he does bad, they don't do bad. So marth is significantly worst fox/falco/puff/sheik/peach in my humble opinion.

p.s. any recent vids of your marth?

Good post

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lets look at recovery in two stages: 1. getting to the edge/on stage directly then 2. getting back to the stage from the edge.

I think marth is second weakest among the top 6 at part 1 (sheik is probably first), and also second weakest at part 2 (peach) all things considered. Puff/Fox/Falco are all better at both parts than marth, and sheik is better at part 2 because her ledgedash->stuff is more safe/invincible. And Peach is better at part 1 because she can usually go high.
This is all things considered for all mixups for all characters, would you disagree?

He has problems killing in a lot of situations and lacks simple things like launcher->garuanteed kill move at high percents that other top tiers have. So he's limited to killing directly out of combos which is good and bad. Everyone can kill directly out of long combos, but when the other top characters drop combos, they can often fish for *easy launcher*->*easy finisher*. Marth has to do stuff like grab-> pivot tippered fsmash 0_o

His out of shield game leaves a lot to be desired compared to the rest of the top 6 which all have the same stuff he does, but also have shines, nairs, and DAT 2 FRAME PUFF ROLL, that marth just kinda has to deal with it

his matchup spread isn't so bad. I think he gets a huge boost going evenish with spacies. But (again, unlike the other top tiers) he doesn't dominate the mid cast. Like, marth arguably stuggles with ganon, falcon, doc, ice climbers on top of his top tier matchups. The rest of the top tiers either win these matchups significantly, or only has an odd problem here and there (like puff vs doc and stuff).

Like to hear your thoughts on this stuff.

TL;DR marth is good, but the things he does good, everyone else also does good, and the things he does bad, they don't do bad. So marth is significantly worst fox/falco/puff/sheik/peach in my humble opinion.

p.s. any recent vids of your marth?

Part 1, at times Falco can be worse. For example, if both Marth and Falco go low, different things happen. If they're closeish to the edge, Marth gets a better airdodge recovery than Falco. If they're farther away, Marth gets side B mixups(sometimes effective for some characters) and Falco has to up-B, which is usually death. If they are at edge height then Marth still gets edgeguard and Falco gets side B and up-B, but side B is the only real concern here again usually because up-B can be reacted to. Side B is really tough to beat here so I'll definitely give that to Falco. If they are both high up, Falco could try to platform cancel, up-B and control his angle, or do side B tricks. Marth can just fall lol. Marth's side B is actually a kinda neat visual trick here. Depending on how far out he is, he can just mix up how many side Bs he does, and exactly where he does them. With the first side B especially, the one that grants more height, he can avoid lots of spaced jumping attacks into him. If people learn to respect this option, then Marth can just fall and attack(if they're waiting for side B/recovery) or airdodge(if they wait and then try to beat the attack) or counter(if they try to intercept the high side B, kinda rare but solid option situationally). This is all without DJs, which make Falco a little better close by the edge due to Dair but Marth's Fair is big so he can still swat people away with less worry about lag and dying if he calls a move wrong. Falco is kinda **** farther out with a DJ though because of how many heights he can side B at.

Point is, I could see Falco being below Marth on this list or tied with him.....or at least close to him on this type of thing.

Part 2, yeah I suppose I can agree besides maybe Puff. Unless I'm mistaken, Puff can just jump and Bair(and sometimes Pound I guess) and maybe eventually try to go over people. That takes like 3 of puff's 5 jumps to really get over people though, and hitting her away after those leaves her with her two worst jumps, which is bad for her. Puff's panic when this stuff happens lol I feel like she's not edgeguarded well enough tbh. I guess she could be better than Marth at this area but I feel like it's close/in Marth's favor here honestly. I don't think Sheik's stuff is too much better than Marth's because of CC(whereas Marth can avoid CC to some extent by delaying Fair tippers or doing Fair tippers then regrabbing the edge) but yeah I agree her's is better.


Absolutely, 100% DISAGREE with him lacking kill potential. If Marth knocks someone in the air at high percent, then he can outrange/bait and beat their aerial options from below easily and either kill with Uair(smaller stages), Utilt(any stage), or start knocking them off with Bair(any stage). Grabs throw the opponent up into this situation or offstage. Marth is amazing in all of these situations, and only needs one successful read following these situations which are easy for him to exploit to get a kill. Side B to Utilt still kills, Ftilt tippers can kill and catch lots of people on SHs(especially Sheik I've found), and of course you have Fsmash kills and Dsmash tippers can kill as well(also shield stab).

And pivot tipper Fsmash should be something every good Marth can do. If they can't, then they gotta get with the times, a recurring Marth main problem I feel. Personally I can get pivots about 75% of the time when I really want to, and this is without practice. I'm hoping to raise that number as I get better with Marth and actually start using his pivots lol.


Marth's shield is still good, and he does get the nice chance he could grab and kill someone(more likely than you think). Peach tries to jab to grab, Falco and Fox have holes in their pressure, and Sheik can do a move to grab or jab as well(which is a CC grab in this case obviously). Heck, Marth has a better practical OOS game vs Puff and maybe Peach I'd say(due to his long range and disjoint that can "trade" with a floaty move as well as looong WD OOS into any of his big ground moves/grabs that make floating/running back after pressure much less likely or hard to pressure off of if Marth moves backward). Yeah he lacks some of the nice stuff and I don't deny that, but his nice shield still allows for great use of shield DI(still underused, admittedly by myself too) as well as the ability to wait longer for an opening without worry about getting ***** by shield stabs so often.


I think Marth beats Falco. Not entirely sure of it due to lack of experience, but it feels so true in theory and when I play some of the other Falcos I have played. My main point is that Marth is one of the best characters at shutting down Falco's laser game with his long reach and counter, as well as how he can powershield/take lasers to do moves and further disrupt Falco's laser game. Once Marth has that conditioning, he can just outrange Falco straight up. Gimping and CG'ing/death comboing Falco is nice too. The current stage list further makes Marth great vs Falco(and everyone really) because DL can be banned/played fine on and PS is perfectly playable(transformations can be camped out). Marth beats Falco for sure(imo) on YS, BF, FoD, and FD. If CPs are on Marth gets a ban anyway, but RC is doable imo because Marth may not get CGs but he does get easier kills because there are no edges for Falco to save himself with.


No comment on Fox. I really like that matchup though lol.


I do agree with the struggle with Falcon(very very doable though), but I'm not so sure about vs ICs. Doc I know Marth solidly beats, and Ganon....Marth wins but I dunno by how much. Either way, winning a matchup is winning one and I don't believe that Marth should be punished in terms of tiers for winning a matchup by less than another character. I'd say Marth should only be punished tier-wise if he goes even of loses where someone else wins(like Marth losing to Sheik whereas Fox or someone else beats her).

I think Puff vs Doc is worse for Puff than any of Marth's mid tier matchups. It almost looks like Puff may lose to Doc, but I don't really feel that way about any of Marth's mid tier matchups. Marth could lose to Falcon but I don't know much about that and Falcon is high tier anyway.


I'd write more about what I think about Marth's stuff outside of these points, but I want people to actually read this post lol.


Oh, and no I have no new Marth vids. =(

 

[unknown522]

FWIW I think YLink is pretty good even when he's not trying to be a campy *******.

indeed. The spacies and falcon annihilate him though. I don't think that sheik is THAT bad for him either.

@ otg:

But yeah I don't think that vanz's list is terrible by any means, but I just wanted to point out what I posted.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm going to respond to this now because I had classes until 9 PM and a club meeting until 10:30.

Regarding planking Puff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPk1MRX0SD4

No offense to the Falco, but I can't help but feel ledge drop DJ lasers would have hit chibo from the other side of the stage. She has far from Brawl invincibility on the ledge.

 

[Wake]

Oh god, I really hate the stage list when I play a Marth since all they have to do is ban and strike DL, but I don't think the actual MU is that bad for Peach. Slightly in Marth's favor.

 

[Hax]

jiggs planking with the lead is really that good, anyone who thinks otherwise should give m2k a 1-stock lead and try to beat him. matchups increasing by about 30% sounds about right, jason. especially vs characters who aren't spacies or don't have disjointed hitboxes or projectiles that go down/diagonal down; really the only way for such characters to beat this strategy is to either A. jump offstage and bair or B. wd onto the ledge really quickly -> ledgehop -> bair. a single aerial (usually bair) is the best punish you can get each time since you can't chain anything on an offstage jigglypuff, and you pretty much have to go offstage to get the bair because you'll never hit her from onstage if it's being done right. each time you attempt this, you run the risk of being intercepted and gimped by fair, side-b, etc. most low-risk, high reward strategy in the game.

the roll data jason posted is really relevant, too. jiggs' roll is incredible, especially when it goes right into her crouch vs characters who can't grab it.

NJzFinest, jiggs had evenish matchups vs some low tiers until top level technique moar bair was discovered. now she ***** all low tiers free and wins the doctor mario matchup which was previously thought to be bad for her. imo her worst matchups are 45-55 vs both spacies and 50-50 vs young link. maybe ice climbers

 

[ShroudedOne]

Could Peach's dair stop this? Seems like it. But I don't ever fight Puffs, not to talk of planking ones.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach could just throw turnips at Puff's head where her hitboxes don't cover that well.

But then Puff remembers she doesn't need to plank Peach to **** her and then spams bair and it's lololol.

 

[Wake]

It really isn't "lololol" though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It is for Puff.

 

[Wake]

You'll have to forgive me, but I cannot possibly see that situation being "lololol" for either party involved. It's just evil.

 

[Max?]

So close to adding a number of "Top" players to my ignore list

 

[Kink-Link5]

*image removed*

 

[Kink-Link5]

oh right hotlinking and what not

 

[Warhawk]

I still think Dr. Mario gives Puff a bit of trouble. She wins the matchup still but I think he can be a pain for her.

 

[Gea]

Well yeah, but it's still a MU where the puff can afford mistakes and the Doc really can't. He would win if he wasn't free offstage for her.

 

[JPOBS]

. Doc migt actually be puff's worst matchup, for number of resonss bleh

will respond to to PP tomrow when im sober lol. marth sucks <3



good discusssion thoghug.

 

[Gea]

Pills, dunk, cape (sorta), no extreme jank combos on him. I still think it isn't her worst but whatever I'm biased.

 

[kailo34ce]

the hardest jiggs matchup is jiggs.

matchup is so hard to watch.

 

[choknater]

rofl puff dittos are disgusting

luigi dittos are the worst though.

 

[Bones0]

Marth's recovery is pretty bad. As far as his recovery vs. spacies goes, I honestly don't think he can do anything about getting edgeguarded once he reaches a certain distance/damage threshold. If he's low enough that he can DI a LH bair and make it further on stage he can live, but usually he's pretty doomed. I think it should be pointed out, however, that most of the time his recovery is god awful, Sheik and Falco don't even have a fighting chance because of sheer distance. So yeah, his recovery is bad, but not as bad as most people think because they are comparing Marth's furthest recovery to Sheik/Falco's furthest. Marth's recovery also becomes a lot better if his opponent is at a high enough % that he can swat him away with an aerial or hit them with up-B and avoid getting punished. Recovering with a reversal like that isn't really an option for Falco. The last thing I think is relevant is short range recoveries when you just barely get knocked off. Marth's short recovery is pretty damn good. His fair, side-B, and up-B all severely punish anyone who tries to grab the ledge when he's within reach, and his ledge grab distance is borderline Brawl status (shoutouts to the Marios) making it really safe. Fox/Falco don't have any counter-attacks they can use vs. opponents when they get knocked off at mid-%, and their ledge grab sweetspots are quite close to their hurtboxes, so DJing to the ledge when your opponent is right there isn't usually an option. So yeah, Marth's recovery at 100%+ is pretty awful, but so are most characters. At least he has an above average lower % recovery, which is much more common at the top level than any character recovering at high % when they can barely land on the stage/grab the ledge.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think, personally, that Sheik's recovery is one of the most underrated recoveries in the game...

 

[JonnyW]

I think, personally, that Sheik's recovery is one of the most underrated recoveries in the game...

Its pretty bad imo. Her Up-B doesn't get a lot of distance anyway but up it seems. When you hang on the edge it forces her to recover on the stage which is terrible because her up-b has a lot of landing lag. Its pretty easy to punish even if you factor in platforms. Fast characters like falcon, fox, falco can edge hog and cover wherever she appears on the stage. On some stages like YS and FoD Falcon can knee her through platforms she lands on with her up-b like 100% of the time.

 

[stelzig]

and then some native swedish speakers show up at an international and decide to coach in swedish, disguising it as simple cheering. so you have to make an "english-only" rule

and then someone texts a player after the first match, giving them tips on the phone. so you have to make a "no-phones" rule

it's really a lot harder than it sounds

Or you could just have a "no coaching" rule, and let people, who attempt those things, risk getting disqualified if they get caught. Because they are quite clearly breaking the rule and there is absolutely no questioning wether the person is breaking the rule or not (unlike the mentioned stalling issue). If there is suspicion that someone might be coaching by talking in a foreign language, and you can't find out what they are actually talking about, THEN ask them to stop talking (in swedish), but you do not need a general rule for something like that. The more common breaking such a rule becomes, the more control you may need to add, but no reason to be too precautious here.

You seem to think the possibility to get away with something, means that a rule can't be easily defined and enforced. A whole lot of rules need to go away then. In football/soccer (and sports in general), it is quite common to see players try to work around the rules by pretending they got kicked in the face or by hitting the ball with your hand. For some teams, you might even think it is part of the teams strategy to do so. Just because they sometimes get away with these things, it doesn't mean we stop enforcing the rules against them.

The actual small problem with coaching rules would be the crowd cheering stuff in general and possibly even commentators being too close to the players. Even people from the crowd could get warnings or direct disqualifications here though.

I still think Dr. Mario gives Puff a bit of trouble. She wins the matchup still but I think he can be a pain for her.

If you still think she wins the matchup, then it shouldn't really matter for the tier list anyway. Don't understand why people start discussing how much two different characters win a matchup... As long as they win it, it's fine. It's the losing matchups and how hard they lose them that matters. That is unless they're absolutely even and there's nothing else left to decide it by than to look at how hard they beat others, lol. (some people may argue that this is, in fact, the case for fox/falco hah)

This is actually the only problem I have with people trashing marth. I can understand all the arguments they give, but then sometimes people seem to mention at the same time that he doesn't lose matchups and that he just has trouble (but doesn't lose) matchups lower in the tier. That should really not make a difference at all for his tier placement if he still *should* win those matchups. The whole point of all the other arguments should be that he starts losing some matchups, and if he doesn't then he clearly still is top tier.

Edit: With my perception of matchups and without reflecting too much on them (and being very generous with "even" because I really don't have too much of an opinion on matchups), I got something like this:

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Puff
4. Marth
5. Sheik
6. Peach

With puff and marth being really close and marth may have actually deserved 3rd. I feel puff is overrated myself though, so I have problems with this list, lol. I placed sheik below marth because she struggles with puff and ice climbers (decided to place them both as "losing", making sheik the only top5 character with a losing matchup outside the top5 and two losing matchups within the top5. I did put y.link as even on puff too though ) and let marth have his even matchups with fox/falco, making him only really lose against sheik.

I suppose you could put the relatively low sheik placement on this list as the classic "I main this character, therefore I think it sucks"... Idk... I'm not too confident in what any matchup is anyway. I just think that some people need to start thinking in matchups first and foremost - before they start to adding in things such as "well, this characters wins these matchups, but not by much".

Edit: Looks like I forgot to directly mention that even matchups do not really tip a character either way, and having multiple even matchups is still much better than having losing matchups. An even matchup still means the better player wins and that you can never blame anything on the character. Like, a character with only even matchups across the board... Would instantly be placed 3rd on my list (since I decided to give fox and falco no losing matchups).

I know, I know. You may have to know a whole lot more matchups well to do well with a well-rounded character, but isn't really important when we're discussing how good the character actually is.

I suppose all this can be related to the "marginal advantage" if anyone ever heard of that

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Jigglypuff has the option to go onstage and maintain a similar matchup to what is expected between Puff vs Falco. Falco does not have the option to go to the ledge and maintain the same matchup. It is unfortunate, but it comes down to Puff abusing a positional advantage while Falco is waiting to play what would otherwise be a normal match.

That Falco is shooting lasers has no real impact to your argument. Falco could be standing still and the effect is the same.

What you think stalling is and what stalling actually is are not the same. You playing campy and never approaching me while I have the lead is stalling. Your actions are serving no purpose other than to waste time. It doesn't have to be a concrete strategy such as lasering Fox to trap him in shine. It can be as simple as inaction.

There is no reason a player at an even percent or at an advantage to the other player should ever have to submit to a situation that is so drastically in the other character's favor. This leads into why we don't allow Peach to wall bomb under stages indefinitely. Sure, you could go down there with a bunch of characters and try to stop her, but why would you? It is extremely unfair, and that is the only definition we can give to that situation.

If Kirby was planking, would you treat the situation differently?

Obviously Falco ***** Kirby on-stage, so Falco is the one stalling by not going off-stage to where it is more even, right?

 

[kailo34ce]

i hate to say it but im thinking about the chars that can deal with planking and the ones that cant and it almost seems like it balances the game a little (by this i mean links can deal with it better than spacies and etc. yoshi? ness? pikachu? kirby?) and i dont mean anything absolutely

too bad puff can pretty much just beat the low tiers.

(actually maybe not too bad cuz if she was just top tier planking people would probably just pick her to plank)

 

[Cactuar]

If Kirby was planking, would you treat the situation differently?

Obviously Falco ***** Kirby on-stage, so Falco is the one stalling by not going off-stage to where it is more even, right?

Interaction, as a standard, occurs onstage. The offstage position counts as a secondary. It doesn't matter what the characters are. Jigglypuff could be the one on stage and Falco off, and it would still be Falco's responsibility to come on stage, as he is the one causing the lack of interaction, especially if the on-stage character is giving the off-stage character the space to do so.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

 

[Cactuar]

Nice counterargument.

Don't waste my time.