Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[john!]

no character can do anything out of peach's fc aerial -> jab

the jab comes out before the shield stun is over

 

[kailo34ce]

dif games dif edge properties. brawl is just broken in that sense. banning the melee ledge would be like banning walls in arcade fighters imo (even if they are a poor game mechanic it isnt game breaking)


btw john try grabbing

 

[unknown522]

You two really are the same person.

lol. I'm just at his house 4 days in a week sometimes.

You know who's the same person? OTG and Niko45

@ warhawk: I think that armada is more consistent because he doesn't have as many random losses to people (SS and amsah are the only sort of random ones I can really think of [and no I don't mean that they're random players. They are just players that you wouldn't expect him to lose to.])

@ John: punish the jab's lag. It's like what? -15 on block? Also cc it if you want

 

[john!]

btw john try grabbing

grab comes out on frame 7

dsmash on frame 5

jab on frame 2

peach has +4 frame priority for all aerials on shield except dair

spotdodge starts on frame 2 for most characters

roll starts on frame 4 i think? dunno

most shieldgrabs come out on frame 7

you guys do the math

@ John: punish the jab's lag.

i worded my last post poorly, i meant that nobody can do any action between the FC aerial and the jab because they are still stunned

 

[kailo34ce]

you should still grab...

and what he means is aerial to jab doesnt matter because when they shield it youre in trub trub, if they dont then you got a poor punishment.

 

[Jonas]

I get what you're saying M2K, and maybe we're all underestimating her, but I still think we need to see all of it in practice before we take some kind of action to limit the character. A game isn't ruined just because a certain tactic turns out to be broken and we didn't ban it "in time" (ie before someone wins a big tournament using only that tactic).

oh and honestly, if it comes to it, I'd rather ban a character with a broken tactic rather than just the tactic. Otherwise it's like asking players to pretend that their character isn't broken. Imagine if the ST community just banned Akuma's air fireball rather than Akuma >_>

 

[choknater]

planking puff still loses to young link and ice climbers lol.

 

[Cia]

M2K's post started with "puff is way better than you all think." and i skipped over it. lol

I really don't want to become apart of this, but just some quick explanation.

Fox - Zero bad Matchups. Zero. Everything is in his favor all of the time. (especially with the current stage list)

Sheik - good control / combos. good initiates. Only Horrible match up is Falco. Slight disadvantage to Fox. Great @ low health Kills.

Falco - Excellent control / combos. Excellent initiates. Slight disadvantage to Fox. Evenish with Peach / Marth.

Peach - Excellent Control vs Non-Fox. Excellent Combos. Disadvantage to Fox / CF. Slight Disadvantage to Sheik / Puff. Evenish with Marth / Falco. good @ low health kills. THE BEST @ trading.

Marth - Almost no control vs the "top tier." They literally have to fall into his traps (dash dance grab) for him to get anything done. His combos are some of the easiest to finish upon landing a grab and probably the most extensive. His weakness is his need to constantly approach to get any damage. The top tier can throw stuff @ you all day until you come within their range.

CF - This character gets NOOOOOO sympathy from me. He has a similar weakness to Marth's in which he "needs" to approach. But he has such incredible mobility and his aerials are ALL safe on the shield. CF get's abused hard if knocked down, or off stage. But his punishment is just as disgusting vs everyone else. I've watched Hax knock down spacies COUNTLESS times @ 0 percent. And it was the end of their stock. Does this happen all the time? No. But it happens often enough to argue that Falcon is definitely not this bottom tier useless champ they all want you to believe he his. Falcon's ability to tech chase on reaction is second to non, and easily one of the top 3 punishers in the game. Disadvantage to Fox / Falco. Evenish Sheik / Marth.

Puff - zzzz. So tired of explaining this char. Ppl just need to get over her BS. She fights differently then every other champ. So naturally you have to fight against her differently. Mess up, and you get *****. It's the SAME concept as fighting anything else. A good example would be KK vs hbox @ Apex 2012. KK's Sheik was VERY different in their winner's set from any other game I can recall from him. He was patient, countered Puff's approaches correctly. He won the set. In Losers, Hbox changed the way he approached. He knew how KK would respond to his approach. He made some changes. He "adapted."
If Jigglypuff was this god champion, It wouldn't be losing to a ****ing low tier @ 3 straight tournaments. The bait and punish style is very effective against Jiggs, ppl are just way to lazy to abuse it. Disavantage to Fox / Falco / Marth / Sheik. Evenish CF / Young Link <_<

ICz - Super Power Chain grabs. Soooo much pontential in this char. No one using. Wobbles needs to start winning everything more.

Dr. Mario - Strong pick. Nothing special. Beats everyone below him.

Pikachu - Great at early kills. Great @ aggression. ZERO defensive game. Pretty much dead on contact. lol Perfect weight for CG and combo from everyone. sad.

Samus - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Ganondorf - Pretty good at camping space. Brutal punisher. Really strong for teams IMO. Complete combo sack if hit. Gets ***** off the stage.

Young Link - Good @ bait and punish. Has an auto-combo that kills Floaties in the double digits. (Bomb > Dair) Strong against all floaties in general (even high tiers) Evenish with Samus / Ganondorf / ICz. His High / Mid tier match ups are closer than most ppl give him credit for. I think this should give him a spot in lower mid tier.

Luigi - Vudujin just *****. Luigi is actually kinda ehh. Like.. idk. He's not a "bad" char. He's just not really WOWing the crowd either. Idk.

 

[Blistering Speed]

read before posting

My reading comprehension is fine. I'll believe it when I see it.

Vanz's list is terrible.

 

[choknater]

lol

i think vanz list is the best, and his reasoning is really good.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Vanz's reasoning is really good, though I'm not sure how I feel about the Sheik placement. Other than that, it's fine. Thanks for the explanations, Vanz.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I like Vanz's list too.

Though I dislike Luigi > Mario

But who the **** cares lol

 

[Lovage]

Lol, smash scene so fake. Your rationale for putting Peach above Marth is literally entirely because the best player in the world mains her. There's absolutely no other reasoning. If you have a trace of objectivity, and can analyse the characters in a vacuum, it's very obvious who the better character is. It's not inertia, or stubbornness, it's because the characters and the metagame don't ****ing change every ****ing five minutes.

if you analyze the characters in a vacuum (********,) it's still pretty damn even and i don't understand why you're so adamant about this.

all armada did was show everyone what can be done if you play peach with complete mastery of the character, this is the same thing that happened when m2k showed everyone how good marth can be, it's the same thing when mango and PP showed us how good falco can be, and it's the same thing as when hbox showed everyone how ****ing gay + unfun puff can be if you put your heart into it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I understand VanZ's list even if I don't agree with it 100%. Thanks for clarifying man

 

[twizzlerj]

if you analyze the characters in a vacuum (********,) it's still pretty damn even and i don't understand why you're so adamant about this.

all armada did was show everyone what can be done if you play peach with complete mastery of the character, this is the same thing that happened when m2k showed everyone how good marth can be, it's the same thing when mango and PP showed us how good falco can be, and it's the same thing as when hbox showed everyone how ****ing gay + unfun puff can be if you put your heart into it.

this is true and as for vanz's explanation was pretty solid but i saw champ instead of character once and ignored it then i saw it again and stopped reading.....

 

[Habefiet]

Regarding planking Puff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPk1MRX0SD4

Obviously this video is not remotely representative of anyone's idea of "perfect planking," or even high level planking, but a while back there was a thread where someone asked what would be done had this match gone to time with no percent added on since neither player was really approaching the other. Some highish up MBR person or a mod or both or something (Cactuar, I think? Uncertain. Couldn't find the thread again--low on time at the moment) said that the Puff was clearly stalling and would forfeit the match.

So my question is this: If there were some unbeatable planking strategy, or even a nearly unbeatable planking strategy, would it not be banned anyway under our current ruleset for constituting stalling?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't think anyone in the MBR said anything like that

 

[Habefiet]

I don't think anyone in the MBR said anything like that

Well, I found what I was thinking of. It was Cactuar. Page 2 of this thread:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=316928

TO can easily review this match and point out that it was Chibo who was stalling the match.

What happens in any fight sport when one person is constantly running away from the other or making no effort to progress the match? That person gets warned for stalling, then gives up points on subsequent offenses. On stage is the neutral position. Any argument made against that is done by an individual wanting to be difficult.

At even percent and stock, someone sitting on the ledge can be called out for stalling the match. + or - that, the person with a disadvantage must approach if the person with the advantage chooses to be a ******.

Hell, if we wanted to, we could make up rules for things like "if you make no attempt to hit or control the opponent for x amount of time after being warned for stalling, you lose a stock/the match," and disregard who is winning or losing. It really isn't hard. It's just something no one wants to due because projectile characters obviously have it easy.

And just for situational complete-ness, stalling can only be called if the opponent goes far out of a threat zone (the other side of the stage), and the person on the edge does not come back on. In that case, you are purposefully allowing the person on the edge to regain some control of the stage and saying "come onto the stage, I won't prevent it". There is no reason for them to sit on the edge other than to abuse bull**** and run out the time.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Meh. Throughout the whole match, Falco could have attempted to play offstage even in the slightest. He didn't, equally guilty of stalling the match as jiggs was.

 

[Jonas]

Yeah it was quite sensible for Chibo to just stay on the edge. Otherwise he would have taken a few lasers and kind of given the spacing advantage to Falco.

 

[Kal]

I think the issue is that it's very hard to define things like stalling, so attempting to create rules against them is difficult. Sirlin calls this "discreteness:" a rule needs to be individually separate and distinct, or else it is impossible to ban, even if it is totally enforceable (which is actually a separate, practical issue with this sort of rule).

If both players just sit there, terrified to approach, who is stalling? If I am running away the entire time and my opponent is simply unable to catch me, am I utilizing a winning tactic, or am I "stalling the match?" What is the difference? The link provided is a good example of this issue.

 

[unknown522]

My reading comprehension is fine. I'll believe it when I see it.

wow. This isn't even my opinion. You are wrong.


@ vanz: not bashing the list but you used the example that jiggs is constantly losing to a low tier, but what about the fact that pretty much all the foxes lose to axe's pikachu?

 

[choknater]

lol, not all of them lose to his pika.

but the greatest jigglypuff player does lose grand finals of majors in hour-long sets trying to adapt to a character who seems like he has the easier fight.

can't always make those analogies man. they're different situations.

 

[Strong Badam]

...i really don't think "lol, not all of them lose to his pika" is a valid argument. name 1 that doesn't? i think lovage might have beaten him at one point but that's it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Okay so like 2/9001 can beat his Pika...

 

[kailo34ce]

its official, fox is a joke character.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I'm pretty sure the Ganon/Kirby matchup is close to even. Does that mean Ganon's tied for the worst character in the game?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I have YL lower than VaNz because I think Fox beats him into a bloody pulp so easily it's hilarious. I do agree that his MUs with some of the other top characters are probably better than people give credit for though.

I also have Falco as #1 because I think he beats Fox but that seems to be the main factor in whether you think Falco is #1 or X (where X is basically 2 and sometimes weird other numbers).

I don't have Ganon on my tier list because he's not good enough to be included.

I think Puff is top tier but I'm probably biased because my character sucks against her, even with a good strategy.

edit: By "sucks" I mean it's a vicious, unfair, horrible MU that I have to greatly outskill my opponent in to win. So, like, 55-45 or 60-40 for Puff.

 

[Cactuar]

Well, I found what I was thinking of. It was Cactuar. Page 2 of this thread:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=316928

This post was hilarious.

It might be because I was there, but to me, reading a player's intent is not difficult. Chibo's intent was to go to the edge and wait indefinitely until the opponent comes to him. Tag's was to play the game like every other match ever, but he read Chibo's intent and did not take the bait. Ledgestalling when there is no advantage is stalling. Ledgestalling when you have the advantage is a huge positional advantage, but under the current ruleset, completely legal. Ledgestalling when you are at a disadvantage is stalling. And ********.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I don't have Ganon on my tier list because he's not good enough to be included.

Ganon's definitely good enough to be included. Name one character who's better than him AND has a purple outfit.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Close enough, IMO. Is lavender really that huge a difference?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I think it's close enough. I was just hoping you wouldn't so you wouldn't post that.

Time to go become a Fox main...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon should be high tier off nipple caps alone.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Falcon should be high tier off nipple caps alone.

LOL Totally True!

 

[Habefiet]

This post was hilarious.

It might be because I was there, but to me, reading a player's intent is not difficult. Chibo's intent was to go to the edge and wait indefinitely until the opponent comes to him. Tag's was to play the game like every other match ever, but he read Chibo's intent and did not take the bait. Ledgestalling when there is no advantage is stalling. Ledgestalling when you have the advantage is a huge positional advantage, but under the current ruleset, completely legal. Ledgestalling when you are at a disadvantage is stalling. And ********.

K, I misinterpreted your intent a bit. I suppose it's up the TO whether or not something constitutes stalling anyway. So supposed perfect Puff planking or what-have-you would not constitute stalling, assuming Puff had the lead? I'd still like to see it in tournament. Or even in a friendly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This post was hilarious.

It might be because I was there, but to me, reading a player's intent is not difficult. Chibo's intent was to go to the edge and wait indefinitely until the opponent comes to him. Tag's was to play the game like every other match ever, but he read Chibo's intent and did not take the bait. Ledgestalling when there is no advantage is stalling. Ledgestalling when you have the advantage is a huge positional advantage, but under the current ruleset, completely legal. Ledgestalling when you are at a disadvantage is stalling. And ********.

This just in:

New definition of stalling - Camping if I don't like it

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I wish people would post entire lists, instead of stopping right before Zelda/Mewtwo

The age-old question needs an answer!

 

[Cactuar]

This just in:

New definition of stalling - Camping if I don't like it

Stalling is intentionally drawing out a match. Camping is just an extension of playing a heavily defensive game.

If I have the lead and you choose to camp, I am under no obligation to approach you. If I choose to camp and you choose not to change your strategy and you continue camping, you are stalling, as the match will automatically go to me if you do not commit to action.

The scenario in this situation is that neither character has the lead, and as such, neither player is obligated to approach. At this point, we have to look to other methods to determine who is stalling. There is nothing wrong with playing campy. Stalling is a waste of time. The two are, by definition, very different. A jigglypuff with the lead, who is ledgestalling, is, by this definition, camping, as the burden of approaching is entirely on the losing player.

Or you can continue being wrong.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why would Jigglypuff be stalling? She is using a favourable defensive position, just as Falco is using a favourable defensive position by shooting lasers.

Don't try and punish players for playing to the best of their abilities. You can say that Falco is in the fault instead of Jigglypuff and that statement would hold just as much weight. TOs are supposed to be objective... >_>

Stalling is things that literally serve NO purpose apart from wasting time: Trapping a Fox in their shine with lasers, using Sing infinitely by ledge-cancelling it, etc...

 

[Cactuar]

Jigglypuff has the option to go onstage and maintain a similar matchup to what is expected between Puff vs Falco. Falco does not have the option to go to the ledge and maintain the same matchup. It is unfortunate, but it comes down to Puff abusing a positional advantage while Falco is waiting to play what would otherwise be a normal match.

That Falco is shooting lasers has no real impact to your argument. Falco could be standing still and the effect is the same.

What you think stalling is and what stalling actually is are not the same. You playing campy and never approaching me while I have the lead is stalling. Your actions are serving no purpose other than to waste time. It doesn't have to be a concrete strategy such as lasering Fox to trap him in shine. It can be as simple as inaction.

There is no reason a player at an even percent or at an advantage to the other player should ever have to submit to a situation that is so drastically in the other character's favor. This leads into why we don't allow Peach to wall bomb under stages indefinitely. Sure, you could go down there with a bunch of characters and try to stop her, but why would you? It is extremely unfair, and that is the only definition we can give to that situation.