Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

Stalling has to be non-interactive in a fairly severe way for it to be stalling, I think.

 

[Cactuar]

Stalling has to be non-interactive in a fairly severe way for it to be stalling, I think.

To this point, with neither player having advantage, puff is the one dissuading interaction, not falco.

 

[john!]

anti-stalling rules are about as enforceable as anti-coaching rules.

i.e. not enforceable at all if the player knows how to get around them.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Would bacon make it better?

 

[Bones0]

Coaching rules are insanely easy to enforce. Stay 5 feet from both players, and don't make any attempt to communicate privately. derp

Why are these things even being brought up in this thread?

Pass me the damn bacon.

 

[john!]

Coaching rules are insanely easy to enforce. Stay 5 feet from both players, and don't make any attempt to communicate privately. derp

and then some native swedish speakers show up at an international and decide to coach in swedish, disguising it as simple cheering. so you have to make an "english-only" rule

and then someone texts a player after the first match, giving them tips on the phone. so you have to make a "no-phones" rule

it's really a lot harder than it sounds

 

[JPOBS]

Marth seriously sucks. I don't buy the hype. He has serious trouble recovery, and then can't get back on stage even when he does. plus he can't do anything unless you jump into his dash dance. goddamn.

but he looks cool when he hits people.

 

[kailo34ce]

his cape/shower curtain he wears is pretty cool

 

[Construct]

I like his tiara.

 

[Warhawk]

Marth seriously sucks. I don't buy the hype. He has serious trouble recovery, and then can't get back on stage even when he does. plus he can't do anything unless you jump into his dash dance. goddamn.

but he looks cool when he hits people.

Sucks as in isn't as solid as the top 5 characters or sucks as in he legitimately isn't all that great?

 

[Cia]

wow. This isn't even my opinion. You are wrong.


@ vanz: not bashing the list but you used the example that jiggs is constantly losing to a low tier, but what about the fact that pretty much all the foxes lose to axe's pikachu?

How many of those Foxes are actually "better" players than Axe? You also have to think about how they played the match up.

Ex. If they're following pikachu to the ledge, then yea, they're probably going to die. I'm pretty sure Mango and Lovage (?) do well vs Axe as fox.

 

[JPOBS]

sucks as in:
not as good as the top 5
not even close to the spacies overall imo (although he has good matchups vs themselves)

i think marth's effectiveness vs the spacies is like the only thing he has going for him these days.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth seriously sucks. I don't buy the hype. He has serious trouble recovery, and then can't get back on stage even when he does. plus he can't do anything unless you jump into his dash dance. goddamn.

but he looks cool when he hits people.

Everyone has trouble recovering now. Edgeguarding is a bad position these days and most people at top level make you die if they hit you off(or they should).

Marth has neutral B regrab edge, DJ stand on the edge of the stage, DJ Fair/Nair onto the stage, DJ Fair regrab edge, and waveland shield/roll. Oh yeah, and DJ counter. That's plenty of options and allows for lots of mixups.

Marth can control people exceptionally well if he boxes them into a corner. Supposing they don't go into a corner, then they can have trouble with his DD while vying for control of the middle. Marth is great at forcing people backward with Dtilt. This leaves platforms. Marth's head is very well protected by Uair(can be delayed) and uptilt. His reach extends through all side platforms easily and even some of the top platforms with SH Uair(other aerials for side platforms).

His grab game is ******** and allows for grabbing people from far away, sometimes even out of their own attacks(especially when CC'ing/ASDI'ing down is abused correctly). He edgeguards very well and juggles very well. His tipper kills early and, for some characters, can be a DI mixup in a combo where you either get tippered or ken comboed.


Marth/Sheik is doable. It requires lots of precision and finesse, but that's fine. One losing matchup does not make Marth bad as long as it's not a counter(which it isn't).

I'm pretty sure Marth beats Falco, but I have more testing to do on that to be sure. I don't get to play Falcos often.

Puff is outranged and can be throw comboed at low percent. Throws can lead into tippers. Heck Puff's shield is small enough to lead into tippers lol.



I could write more but I wanted to throw out some of why I believe Marth is still good.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Among the top seven, the only character everyone can agree that Marth loses to is Sheik. One losing MU isn't bad.

EDIT: Ninja'd. But, to challenge your point, Peepee, going for grabs against Puff as Marth is extremely dangerous, isn't it? Plus, she can DI out of the fthrow combo, I'm sure (hard DI down + away).

 

[Wake]

So many different opinions haha.

Marth is good. Marth's time is long over.
Puff is top tier. Puff is overrated.
Peach is top tier. Peach is overrated.
Falcon is good. Falcon is the worst thing that has ever had the misfortune to grace this game.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Among the top seven, the only character everyone can agree that Marth loses to is Sheik. One losing MU isn't bad.

EDIT: Ninja'd. But, to challenge your point, Peepee, going for grabs against Puff as Marth is extremely dangerous, isn't it? Plus, she can DI out of the fthrow combo, I'm sure (hard DI down + away).

If she's shielding a grab isn't so bad lol. Plus, Marth can always just hit Puff(small shield)/pressure her into rolling and grab that or combo from it.

I also have been informed that Marth can pivot grab Puff's Bair. Still playing around with that but it is a way to get those grabs with much less worry(needs a little more testing though I've only messed around with it in friendlies once since I'm playing more Falco lately).

 

[kailo34ce]

we start advertising jiggs

we start banning jiggs players

problem solved

 

[JPOBS]

Everyone has trouble recovering now. Edgeguarding is a bad position these days and most people at top level make you die if they hit you off(or they should).

Marth has neutral B regrab edge, DJ stand on the edge of the stage, DJ Fair/Nair onto the stage, DJ Fair regrab edge, and waveland shield/roll. Oh yeah, and DJ counter. That's plenty of options and allows for lots of mixups.

Marth can control people exceptionally well if he boxes them into a corner. Supposing they don't go into a corner, then they can have trouble with his DD while vying for control of the middle. Marth is great at forcing people backward with Dtilt. This leaves platforms. Marth's head is very well protected by Uair(can be delayed) and uptilt. His reach extends through all side platforms easily and even some of the top platforms with SH Uair(other aerials for side platforms).

His grab game is ******** and allows for grabbing people from far away, sometimes even out of their own attacks(especially when CC'ing/ASDI'ing down is abused correctly). He edgeguards very well and juggles very well. His tipper kills early and, for some characters, can be a DI mixup in a combo where you either get tippered or ken comboed.


Marth/Sheik is doable. It requires lots of precision and finesse, but that's fine. One losing matchup does not make Marth bad as long as it's not a counter(which it isn't).

I'm pretty sure Marth beats Falco, but I have more testing to do on that to be sure. I don't get to play Falcos often.

Puff is outranged and can be throw comboed at low percent. Throws can lead into tippers. Heck Puff's shield is small enough to lead into tippers lol.



I could write more but I wanted to throw out some of why I believe Marth is still good.

Lets look at recovery in two stages: 1. getting to the edge/on stage directly then 2. getting back to the stage from the edge.

I think marth is second weakest among the top 6 at part 1 (sheik is probably first), and also second weakest at part 2 (peach) all things considered. Puff/Fox/Falco are all better at both parts than marth, and sheik is better at part 2 because her ledgedash->stuff is more safe/invincible. And Peach is better at part 1 because she can usually go high.
This is all things considered for all mixups for all characters, would you disagree?

He has problems killing in a lot of situations and lacks simple things like launcher->garuanteed kill move at high percents that other top tiers have. So he's limited to killing directly out of combos which is good and bad. Everyone can kill directly out of long combos, but when the other top characters drop combos, they can often fish for *easy launcher*->*easy finisher*. Marth has to do stuff like grab-> pivot tippered fsmash 0_o

His out of shield game leaves a lot to be desired compared to the rest of the top 6 which all have the same stuff he does, but also have shines, nairs, and DAT 2 FRAME PUFF ROLL, that marth just kinda has to deal with it

his matchup spread isn't so bad. I think he gets a huge boost going evenish with spacies. But (again, unlike the other top tiers) he doesn't dominate the mid cast. Like, marth arguably stuggles with ganon, falcon, doc, ice climbers on top of his top tier matchups. The rest of the top tiers either win these matchups significantly, or only has an odd problem here and there (like puff vs doc and stuff).

Like to hear your thoughts on this stuff.

TL;DR marth is good, but the things he does good, everyone else also does good, and the things he does bad, they don't do bad. So marth is significantly worst fox/falco/puff/sheik/peach in my humble opinion.

p.s. any recent vids of your marth?

 

[unknown522]

lol, not all of them lose to his pika.

but the greatest jigglypuff player does lose grand finals of majors in hour-long sets trying to adapt to a character who seems like he has the easier fight.

can't always make those analogies man. they're different situations.

Lol. Sure

@ tristan: yeah not having a reliable 2-step kill kinda sucks. Which is partly why I have marth and jiggs below the other 3.

I still think that marth is better than jiggs though. But each to their own

Edit: oh yeah, why I think fox is better than falco partly (and why sheik can be debated to be better) is also cuz fox's 2-steps/combo starters are pretty inconsistent sometimes with the power of (A)SDI. Also some characters don't have to even SDI to escape things like drills and w/e. in turn if you fail for hitting them, you may lose a stock for it depending on the matchup.

 

[Bing]

Lol. Sure

@ tristan: yeah not having a reliable 2-step kill kinda sucks. Which is partly why I have marth and jiggs below the other 3.

I still think that marth is better than jiggs though. But each to their own

Being honest.. I dont even think Jiggs is top 4... More like.. 6th? I dunno I also feel Peach is higher.. So like.. Fox,Falco,Sheik,Marth,Peach,Jiggs etc.

 

[boomrested]

we start advertising jiggs

we start banning jiggs players

problem solved

People like you make me mad.

/characterbias

 

[john!]

my prediction for the next tier list:

fox/falco (tied)
sheik/puff (tied)
marth/peach (tied)
falcon/icies (tied)

 

[Bing]

too bad this is the final tier list XD

 

[The Good Doctor]

Falco
Fox
Peach

Puff
Sheik/Marth -this can go either way
Falcon
IC

My top 7 in order, for the most part. The space is to seperater top/high tiers .

too bad this is the final tier list XD

So was the last list...lmao

 

[The Good Doctor]

ddouble post, sorry

 

[Bing]

So was the last list...lmao

This is true.. Also I dont see Peach passing Sheik... possible of course

 

[JPOBS]

Lol. Sure

@ tristan: yeah not having a reliable 2-step kill kinda sucks. Which is partly why I have marth and jiggs below the other 3.

I still think that marth is better than jiggs though. But each to their own

Edit: oh yeah, why I think fox is better than falco partly (and why sheik can be debated to be better) is also cuz fox's 2-steps/combo starters are pretty inconsistent sometimes with the power of (A)SDI. Also some characters don't have to even SDI to escape things like drills and w/e. in turn if you fail for hitting them, you may lose a stock for it depending on the matchup.

I'm really torn about fox. On one hand I think he's the best in the game, but on the other, a lot of his stuff randomly fails and gets broken by simple stuff like asdi and no-stun landing on shines.

but right now mccloud does work.

 

[The Good Doctor]

This is true.. Also I dont see Peach passing Sheik... possible of course

Because Sheik has done SO well at nationals....
While Armada does amazing...

 

[Bing]

I'm really torn about fox. On one hand I think he's the best in the game, but on the other, a lot of his stuff randomly fails and gets broken by simple stuff like asdi and no-stun landing on shines.

but right now mccloud does work.

TRISTANT. No. Fox is god. Fox is > Brawl's MK

Im shocked you say such silly things. Fox doesnt just work.. he *****

 

[Doc King]

Regarding planking Puff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPk1MRX0SD4

Obviously this video is not remotely representative of anyone's idea of "perfect planking," or even high level planking, but a while back there was a thread where someone asked what would be done had this match gone to time with no percent added on since neither player was really approaching the other. Some highish up MBR person or a mod or both or something (Cactuar, I think? Uncertain. Couldn't find the thread again--low on time at the moment) said that the Puff was clearly stalling and would forfeit the match.

So my question is this: If there were some unbeatable planking strategy, or even a nearly unbeatable planking strategy, would it not be banned anyway under our current ruleset for constituting stalling?

lol. That was so funny. It's like that Falco player was waiting on purpose and then was like **** that brawl ****, go back to brawl u scrub with a lazer.

I'm pretty sure the Ganon/Kirby matchup is close to even. Does that mean Ganon's tied for the worst character in the game?

No because Kirby sucks and doesn't matter.

TRISTANT. No. Fox is god. Fox is > Brawl's MK

Im shocked you say such silly things. Fox doesnt just work.. he *****

I hope ur joking about this.

 

[JPOBS]

I think fox is the best char in the game, but it wouldnt shock me if his status dropped as people perfect sdi and shine break combos.

or not. im just thinking out loud here

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach doesn't have a two step kill. She doesn't have it as bad as Marth, I guess, but she doesn't have it like Fox/Falco/Sheik

Because Sheik has done SO well at nationals....
While Armada does amazing...

>Places Fox second
>Uses nationals as his rationale for placings

OK.

Can we just talk about Zelda/Mewtwo, please?

 

[Wobbles]

ICz - Super Power Chain grabs. Soooo much pontential in this char. No one using. Wobbles needs to start winning everything more.

I AM WORKING ON IT OKAY.

Jeez.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

too bad this is the final tier list XD

This isn't the final tier list. The final tier list was made in 2008 before brawl was released

 

[Doc King]

I think either Fox or Falco are the best. They're both pretty close though.

I find it funny though that GF's of huge national Melee tourneys were a lot of times Peach vs. Puff. A lot of Puff's did very well in those tourneys. Curious though why ppl think Puff is high tier all of a sudden. Anyone care to explain?

 

[The Good Doctor]

Peach doesn't have a two step kill. She doesn't have it as bad as Marth, I guess, but she doesn't have it like Fox/Falco/Sheik



>Places Fox second
>Uses nationals as his rationale for placings

OK.

Can we just talk about Zelda/Mewtwo, please?

It's a factor, but you don't see Fox winning a national anyway.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol final tier list

Literally everyone's tier list is radically different

Look at vanz's vs. m2k's....polar opposites..

We have no idea how to rank characters in this game, do we?

 

[NJzFinest]

she automatically has highly favorable matchups vs 80% of the cast

I wouldn't say vs the cast. Vs the "characters that matter / common picks" would be accurate.
She's like, the worst top tier to use vs lower tiered characters. Some of them even have good matchups vs her.

If the tier list was solely based on matchups, Sheik should deserve much more credit since she can downthrow to instant win most of the cast.

 

[Bing]

People never catch my trolls...

 

[JPOBS]

lol final tier list

Literally everyone's tier list is radically different

Look at vanz's vs. m2k's....polar opposites..

We have no idea how to rank characters in this game, do we?

I think its a good thing that there is such little consensus about the tier list. It leads to discussion and comparisons, which leads to an advancement in knowledge at the very least.

life's about the journy, not the destination or somethingsomething