Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Hax]

It puzzles me why cliffhangers (80 ledgegrabs) hasn't been implemented. What harm does it do?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Someone is taking this a little too seriously haha

There is no counter-argument, we just have a disagreement when it comes to the fundamentals of the argument (you support the person on-stage over the one off-stage, I support them both equally), that is all.

 

[Xyzz]

Interaction, as a standard, occurs onstage. The offstage position counts as a secondary. It doesn't matter what the characters are. Jigglypuff could be the one on stage and Falco off, and it would still be Falco's responsibility to come on stage, as he is the one causing the lack of interaction, especially if the on-stage character is giving the off-stage character the space to do so.

How do you feel about that Jman vs Amsah match, where Amsah cba to get laser camped 24/7 while in the lead and decides to shino stall? (Mainly playing devil's advocate, I am totally with you. People should get off the stupid ledge when their opponent gives them room, and % is even.)

edit: ah, crap, he is in the lead, so he is allowed to do whatever the **** he pleases. Ok, then uh, hyper theoretical example. He was behind, getting laser camped, and brought it back. Now % is tied, and he decides to laser camp. Fox is definitely not attempting to interact with him either, so... uhh? :D

 

[Cactuar]

I take these discussions seriously enough that I know posting something like "thats just your opinion" doesn't contribute anything and only has a negative impact on your position.

If people take the time to write up serious counterarguments, I will respect that and take the time to respond.

@xyzz:

Given a percentage tie, it doesn't matter where in the match it occurs. The implications of going to the ledge are vastly different than the implications of going on stage and taking a laser. Going to the ledge will more than likely result in a stock loss, while going on stage will only forfeit your option of being able to be completely defensive (assuming you take a laser), as the opponent in the lead could choose to also be defensive, making you the staller.

One is a huge advantage towards the ledge staller likely leading to a gimp, causing a stock loss and advantage loss. The other is 3% and advantage loss. To put the burden of approaching on the onstage individual would be ridiculous.

 

[Max?]

Turnips, Thunderjolts, Pills and Fireballs are pretty good vs. Planking imo. Maybe some bombs/arrows/boomerangs? Some needles through platforms and maybe even PK Thunder?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I thought it was called s0fting in Melee.

And I still think ledge hop lasers from the other side could hit her big *** head poking up from the ledge.

 

[leffen]

Yoshi wins vs Jiggs in PAL btw

(evenish in NTSC)

eggs **** planking and yoshis planking is by far the best one in the game lol

puffs sucks

 

[Cactuar]

Yoshi wins vs Jiggs in PAL btw

(evenish in NTSC)

eggs **** planking and yoshis planking is by far the best one in the game lol

puffs sucks

this guy right here

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Yoshi wins vs Jiggs in PAL btw

(evenish in NTSC)

eggs **** planking and yoshis planking is by far the best one in the game lol

puffs sucks

Its funny b/c there is so little yoshi info this could very well be true

 

[Kal]

What is different about Yoshi in PAL?

 

[V3ctorMan]

I've played Hbox, with Yoshi and I'd agree that Eggs do fairly well vs Jiggs... I'm unsure about all the planking stuff, but I do think Yoshi's Ledge game with Eggs is very underappreciated... I liked the MU very much, and did fairly well. I think one day, I could do it..

I'm sure Leffen can add more, I'm about to go to work.. >.>

Yoshi's awesome ^^

 

[Cia]

I remember Eggm used to go Yoshi vs Darc

 

[Cactuar]

I actually really like GaW vs Puff. There is a lot of unexplored territory for low tiers vs specific characters.

 

[Niko45]

Falco beats Marth
Sheik beats Marth
ICs beat Marth

Those are his bad matchups. Debatably he loses to Jiggs too (I would definitely say so but idk the matchup that well in practice).

I agree with JPOBS that he gets a huge boost for being decent against Fox (beats Fox imo).

People really have the wrong idea if they think Falcon is a big problem for Marth. Projectile-less characters are much much easier because they don't harrass his spacing and sorta force him to be uncomfortable/inhibit his sword from protecting him. That's why peach with a turnip beats Marth but Peach without does not. Fox is sort of a projectile-less character since his lasers don't stun and despite how fast he is Marth can keep up with any character in open space with no projectiles by simply outspacing them.

Also pivot fsmashing is really really easy. As was discussed recently, however, DI down and away gets all floaties out of fthrow pivot fsmash (not a true combo). Really good tool for making sure you maximize your punish on bad DI.

 

[Xyzz]

What is different about Yoshi in PAL?

His weight is greater (not by too much, but in practice this is really helpful).
His forward smash has been buffed (I am not sure on the exact % here).
(and most of the top tiers are somewhat nerfed in PAL, which indirectly helps Yoshi; though Jiggs is not among them)

 

[Bing]

Hmm, I rather enjoy the Marth vs IC MU... mind you, I've never played a really high caliber IC player with Marth...

 

[Warhawk]

His weight is greater (not by too much, but in practice this is really helpful).

If I'm not mistaken, the added weight really helps his double jump cancel counter as well, making it harder for an opponent to break through and making it a more useful technique for Yoshi.

 

[JPOBS]

Part 1, at times Falco can be worse. For example, if both Marth and Falco go low, different things happen. If they're closeish to the edge, Marth gets a better airdodge recovery than Falco. If they're farther away, Marth gets side B mixups(sometimes effective for some characters) and Falco has to up-B, which is usually death. If they are at edge height then Marth still gets edgeguard and Falco gets side B and up-B, but side B is the only real concern here again usually because up-B can be reacted to. Side B is really tough to beat here so I'll definitely give that to Falco. If they are both high up, Falco could try to platform cancel, up-B and control his angle, or do side B tricks. Marth can just fall lol. Marth's side B is actually a kinda neat visual trick here. Depending on how far out he is, he can just mix up how many side Bs he does, and exactly where he does them. With the first side B especially, the one that grants more height, he can avoid lots of spaced jumping attacks into him. If people learn to respect this option, then Marth can just fall and attack(if they're waiting for side B/recovery) or airdodge(if they wait and then try to beat the attack) or counter(if they try to intercept the high side B, kinda rare but solid option situationally). This is all without DJs, which make Falco a little better close by the edge due to Dair but Marth's Fair is big so he can still swat people away with less worry about lag and dying if he calls a move wrong. Falco is kinda **** farther out with a DJ though because of how many heights he can side B at.

Point is, I could see Falco being below Marth on this list or tied with him.....or at least close to him on this type of thing.

Part 2, yeah I suppose I can agree besides maybe Puff. Unless I'm mistaken, Puff can just jump and Bair(and sometimes Pound I guess) and maybe eventually try to go over people. That takes like 3 of puff's 5 jumps to really get over people though, and hitting her away after those leaves her with her two worst jumps, which is bad for her. Puff's panic when this stuff happens lol I feel like she's not edgeguarded well enough tbh. I guess she could be better than Marth at this area but I feel like it's close/in Marth's favor here honestly. I don't think Sheik's stuff is too much better than Marth's because of CC(whereas Marth can avoid CC to some extent by delaying Fair tippers or doing Fair tippers then regrabbing the edge) but yeah I agree her's is better.


Absolutely, 100% DISAGREE with him lacking kill potential. If Marth knocks someone in the air at high percent, then he can outrange/bait and beat their aerial options from below easily and either kill with Uair(smaller stages), Utilt(any stage), or start knocking them off with Bair(any stage). Grabs throw the opponent up into this situation or offstage. Marth is amazing in all of these situations, and only needs one successful read following these situations which are easy for him to exploit to get a kill. Side B to Utilt still kills, Ftilt tippers can kill and catch lots of people on SHs(especially Sheik I've found), and of course you have Fsmash kills and Dsmash tippers can kill as well(also shield stab).

And pivot tipper Fsmash should be something every good Marth can do. If they can't, then they gotta get with the times, a recurring Marth main problem I feel. Personally I can get pivots about 75% of the time when I really want to, and this is without practice. I'm hoping to raise that number as I get better with Marth and actually start using his pivots lol.


Marth's shield is still good, and he does get the nice chance he could grab and kill someone(more likely than you think). Peach tries to jab to grab, Falco and Fox have holes in their pressure, and Sheik can do a move to grab or jab as well(which is a CC grab in this case obviously). Heck, Marth has a better practical OOS game vs Puff and maybe Peach I'd say(due to his long range and disjoint that can "trade" with a floaty move as well as looong WD OOS into any of his big ground moves/grabs that make floating/running back after pressure much less likely or hard to pressure off of if Marth moves backward). Yeah he lacks some of the nice stuff and I don't deny that, but his nice shield still allows for great use of shield DI(still underused, admittedly by myself too) as well as the ability to wait longer for an opening without worry about getting ***** by shield stabs so often.


I think Marth beats Falco. Not entirely sure of it due to lack of experience, but it feels so true in theory and when I play some of the other Falcos I have played. My main point is that Marth is one of the best characters at shutting down Falco's laser game with his long reach and counter, as well as how he can powershield/take lasers to do moves and further disrupt Falco's laser game. Once Marth has that conditioning, he can just outrange Falco straight up. Gimping and CG'ing/death comboing Falco is nice too. The current stage list further makes Marth great vs Falco(and everyone really) because DL can be banned/played fine on and PS is perfectly playable(transformations can be camped out). Marth beats Falco for sure(imo) on YS, BF, FoD, and FD. If CPs are on Marth gets a ban anyway, but RC is doable imo because Marth may not get CGs but he does get easier kills because there are no edges for Falco to save himself with.


No comment on Fox. I really like that matchup though lol.


I do agree with the struggle with Falcon(very very doable though), but I'm not so sure about vs ICs. Doc I know Marth solidly beats, and Ganon....Marth wins but I dunno by how much. Either way, winning a matchup is winning one and I don't believe that Marth should be punished in terms of tiers for winning a matchup by less than another character. I'd say Marth should only be punished tier-wise if he goes even of loses where someone else wins(like Marth losing to Sheik whereas Fox or someone else beats her).

I think Puff vs Doc is worse for Puff than any of Marth's mid tier matchups. It almost looks like Puff may lose to Doc, but I don't really feel that way about any of Marth's mid tier matchups. Marth could lose to Falcon but I don't know much about that and Falcon is high tier anyway.


I'd write more about what I think about Marth's stuff outside of these points, but I want people to actually read this post lol.


Oh, and no I have no new Marth vids. =(

All this stuff is true and I don't particularly disagree with any of this. Our disagreement seems to come from just exactly how much value we put on the different aspects. Some things one of us considers important the other seems to consider inconsequential. *shrug*

A just a note about marth's matchups because other people have commented on it too:

I think it's important to note where a character stuggles, even if they do win the matchup. A win is a win, but in tournament play, having a difficult (but still winning) matchup where other characters sort of auto win, lowers the utility of the character imo.

 

[Niko45]

I mostly disagree about the KOing situation. Lack of an aerial KO move is enormous. Yes, he has a few moves that will kill below 200% (and some of them, only slightly <_<) but they are all laggy punishable moves that he can't combo into with safer moves (side B itself is punishable). In spots where fox/falco are zoning with bairs to try to get that one hit to KO, Marth is at much larger risk to get opened up.

Going down the tier list I don't think it's til I hit Mario that I find a character with worse reliable KOing.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@JPOBS: Guess I should've written more so you could've disagreed. =p


While I may not exactly disagree with your matchup point, I would like to bring up a thought I sometimes toy around with. At top level, matchups can be exacerbated because every player is abusing the matchups as hard as possible. A 55-45 matchup, while mostly winnable by anyone up until the top, rarely sees victory for the losing character(though it can still be won with a lot of work). A 60-40 is nearly unwinnable at top level and should basically never be lost. A 65-35 is already a counter and pointless to play at top level then.

People often argue about player skill being more important than matchup at top level, but is this necessarily the case when the top players may simply be exploiting their character abilities and exposing their opponent characters' weaknesses harder than anyone else?


@Niko: We've been through this one before recently iirc. I don't know what new material I can offer on the subject, but I hope to show you eventually what I mean.

 

[Xyzz]

If I'm not mistaken, the added weight really helps his double jump cancel counter as well, making it harder for an opponent to break through and making it a more useful technique for Yoshi.

that is the reason why the weight gain goes a long way in practice.
Fun fact: Falco can "shine spike" Yoshi out of his dj starting around 70% (iirc). Fox never can :D

edit: to clarify yoshi won't be hit downwards or anything, but his dj will be stopped, which basically is the same story, since he can't do anything useful to recover afterwards

 

[Niko45]

PP - ya just **** europe with marth and he can be top tier imo

 

[JPOBS]

@JPOBS: Guess I should've written more so you could've disagreed. =p


While I may not exactly disagree with your matchup point, I would like to bring up a thought I sometimes toy around with. At top level, matchups can be exacerbated because every player is abusing the matchups as hard as possible. A 55-45 matchup, while mostly winnable by anyone up until the top, rarely sees victory for the losing character(though it can still be won with a lot of work). A 60-40 is nearly unwinnable at top level and should basically never be lost. A 65-35 is already a counter and pointless to play at top level then.

People often argue about player skill being more important than matchup at top level, but is this necessarily the case when the top players may simply be exploiting their character abilities and exposing their opponent characters' weaknesses harder than anyone else?


@Niko: We've been through this one before recently iirc. I don't know what new material I can offer on the subject, but I hope to show you eventually what I mean.

What players are you considering to be "top" level? As in, name a few players that mark the minimum of the class we're talking about here?

I'm asking because I don't really buy it at all that matchups play out the way you describe it at top level as I see it. You see it all the time that players overcome matchups. Hax routinely beats the hell out of every sheik he plays. Axe beats all the spacies despite pike losing the mu (except probably on FD). And so on.
Which is why its important for a character to be able to herp-a-derp and win as many matchups as possible in theory, because every little bit helps when it comes to practice.

"People often argue about player skill being more important than matchup at top level, but is this necessarily the case when the top players may simply be exploiting their character abilities and exposing their opponent characters' weaknesses harder than anyone else?"
Isn't that exactly what player skill is though?

I'm with niko about the ko'ing stuff too. I just didn't want to argue it further cuz we seemed to just have fundamentally different viewpoints lol

 

[unknown522]

that is the reason why the weight gain goes a long way in practice.
Fun fact: Falco can "shine spike" Yoshi out of his dj starting around 70% (iirc). Fox never can :D

edit: to clarify yoshi won't be hit downwards or anything, but his dj will be stopped, which basically is the same story, since he can't do anything useful to recover afterwards

actually, it stops his DJ starting from 0%. Try it in training mode.

Edit: pp, peach vs fox is not impossible at top level. Though that matchup is at least 6-4 in his favor.

 

[Xyzz]

I so need to play more Falco against a friend's yoshi. Now if only that yoshi downtilt wasn't the best gimping move in the game

 

[Geenareeno]

While I may not exactly disagree with your matchup point, I would like to bring up a thought I sometimes toy around with. At top level, matchups can be exacerbated because every player is abusing the matchups as hard as possible. A 55-45 matchup, while mostly winnable by anyone up until the top, rarely sees victory for the losing character(though it can still be won with a lot of work). A 60-40 is nearly unwinnable at top level and should basically never be lost. A 65-35 is already a counter and pointless to play at top level then.

Interesting point. How do explain players like Hax, Wobbles, or KirbyKaze winning matchups that are apparently really bad. Is it a) the matchups aren't as bad we thought, or b) the players they are against aren't playing the matchups properly? I speak of Hax beating Sheiks, Wobbles beating Peaches, and KK beating Hbox.

 

[Bing]

Interesting point. How do explain players like Hax, Wobbles, or KirbyKaze winning matchups that are apparently really bad. Is it a) the matchups aren't as bad we thought, or b) the players they are against aren't playing the matchups properly? I speak of Hax beating Sheiks, Wobbles beating Peaches, and KK beating Hbox.

Couple things need to be considered though.
1. Its a game, and anything can happen regardless of MU ratios. How else would a Peach player be best in the world?
2. Some players have fairly good matchup experience, examples; Wobbles used to play a high level Peach player all the time(Name escapes me, they used him against Fly in Genese 2 Crews, he also teamed with Wobbles). KirbyKaze plays Idea quite a bit.

Also... Chelsea Grin <3

 

[Strong Badam]

"60-40 nearly unwinnable"

*uses DK*
huehuehue

 

[Cactuar]

I love how 60:40 is supposed to be "For every 10 matches, you will win 6 and lose 4."

Unwinnable.

 

[Strong Badam]

Unpossible

 

[Cactuar]

The reality of it is more like "For every 10 stock, you will take 6 and lose 4."

 

[Bing]

lol who ever said 60:40 is unwinnable is like.. I dont even know...

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah Dr. Peepee doesn't know anything

also you were thinking of the Peach player DoH

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

How is 60:40 unwinnable?

 

[Bing]

yeah Dr. Peepee doesn't know anything

also you were thinking of the Peach player DoH

DoH.. that was it.. thank you

 

[john!]

60 and 40 don't mean anything by themselves, they're just numbers used to illustrate relative differences in matchup difficulty

 

[Cactuar]

*facepalm*

 

[Warhawk]

actually, it stops his DJ starting from 0%. Try it in training mode.

Wow really? Well now I finally have a way to stop my friend from playing Yoshi lol.

 

[Bones0]

To be fair Cactuar, it became apparent to me a long time ago that people can't possibly still be using the ratio as a stock or game ratio like they should be (very few matchups would be worse than 60:40, at least in practice imo). I'm not surprised people don't even know what it originated from anymore.

Good luck getting Yoshi's fat *** off stage at 0%.

 

[Warhawk]

Good luck getting Yoshi's fat *** off stage at 0%.

I always forget when playing against him that he's among the top 5 heaviest characters in the game. His speed and weight combination is really deceptive and annoying. Good thing his moveset isn't that great.