Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Cia]

Fox
Sheik
Falco
Peach

Marth
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers (most potential to go Up)

Dr. Mario
Pikachu
Samus
Ganondorf
Young Link
Luigi
----

No time to elaborate. but ya, my list imo

 

[ShroudedOne]

Wow. I wish you had time to elaborate on why Peach is that high, above both Puff and Marth.

Not sure if Young Link should be that high, either, but I wouldn't know.

 

[Wake]

Another Puff below Falcon? Interesting.

Maybe it's my join date. Joined during the Puff craze.

 

[King5280]

i think thats a very interesting list.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Another Puff below Falcon? Interesting.

Maybe it's my join date. Joined during the Puff craze.

I agree. I'm also interested as why Young Link is so high and Pikachu is above Samus and Ganondorf.

 

[Habefiet]

Fox
Sheik
Falco
Peach

Marth
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers (most potential to go Up)

Dr. Mario
Pikachu
Samus
Ganondorf
Young Link
Luigi
----

No time to elaborate. but ya, my list imo

The Marth/Peach debate already happened, as did where-should-Puff-go debate, so I won't really comment on those, but putting Icies in the same tier as Marth/Falcon/Puff is very interesting to me, as is putting Young Link quite so high (though I do agree that he should go up). I'm not really comfortable with the idea of Mario being six or more places below Doc. I mean. He's worse, but he's not 6+ places worse, is he?

 

[KingofCereal]

Is it crazy to make a list like this:
God - Falco, Fox, Sheik, Jiggs, Marth, Peach
Good - Falcon, IC's
OK - Samus, Pika, Ganon, Doc,
OK light - Mario, Luigi, Link, YL, DK, Yoshi
Bad - Roy, down.
I don't think there is a top 5 anymore because Jiggs has been unleashed and fits nicely into a top 6. The order is irrelevant.
I wanted to make 3 tiers, but Falcon and IC are much better than everyone below them and just not quite up to everyone above them.
The OK characters can rise I guess but they haven't yet and its been a decade so they fit in the middle there.
Even some of the "bad" characters get playing time (Ness, Zelda come to mind) in tournaments.
No matter what it doesn't matter. Tiers have been debated since the game came out. I can imagine when we are all 75 and remembering the good old days of smash we'll say Marth is better than Peach and it will cause a new ****storm all over again. It's all about the top 8 anyway. Maybe top 9 with Pikachu making moves. Maybe top 10 with Ganons being everywhere. Maybe top 11 with Samus still surviving forever and being relevant. Maybe top 12 with Doc still placing occasionally and having big support. Maybe MAYBE top 13 because of YL being a quick little idiot that has bombs. I think that is where it stops for now.
Rant completed.

 

[unknown522]

I'm pretty sure Armada doesn't give a **** about proving points to whiny nobodies on the internet. Armada plays to win.

read before posting

@ warhawk: naw, armada is much more consistent than hbox. Also I personally think that peach is as easy to be consistent with as puff anyway. So the 'because he plays puff' wouldn't be my reason anyway

@ Vanz: I disagree with your list; let's fight

 

[JPOBS]

i like vanz's list cuz he has ganon way low.

ganon ****ing sucks.

 

[unknown522]

Kirbykaze says that Ganon is the worst character in the game.

Those were some funny Ganon dittos that day

 

[Wake]

You two really are the same person.

 

[Armada]

Vanz: Could you try to give some MU-chart/numbers or something?
Just wonder cause we seems to have different opinions and I would like to hear what you think =)

 

[Kink-Link5]

I have a different view on the tier structure. It works for Melee since I understand the metagame a lot better than I do for Brawl.

[Letter Tier]/[Positional Tier]
[Description of the characters' strengths and weaknesses within the tier]
[How the characters should typically fair in tournaments]
[Comparison to students in a class]


S/A+/Top
These characters have everything a character could dream of. Safe options, high pressure, great spacing, good combos, great kill options, and good matchups across the board.
Expect to be able to get to grand finals using only these characters.
They are the top of their class.
Fox
Falco
Sheik

A/High
These characters are strong against most of the cast and have decent matchups with at least one top tier. However, they have some bad match ups either in the tier, with lower tier characters, or in general that hold them back from being top.
You should be able to get to winner's semis or Loser's finals using these characters, and grand finals with a strong secondary or by outplaying others.
They are 4.0 graduates.
Peach
Jigglypuff
Marth
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers

B/Middle-
These characters have strong matchups against the lower tiers, but have less desirable matchups against the higher tiers, putting them in a fairly awkward position.
Starting around Winner's semis you have to start out playing your opponent instead of relying on raw matchups if you expect to win.
They are in the top 20% of their graduating class.
Doctor Mario
Ganondorf
Samus
Mario
Donkey Kong

C/Low-
These characters have niche matchups against some high tier characters but preform only decently on their own.
You have to outplay your opponent around winner's and loser's quarters to do well with these characters. Consider instead picking one of these up as a sub.
They'll have to pay their way through college.
Young Link
Pikachu
Link
Luigi
Zelda

D/Bottom-
These characters have hard uphill matchups against most of the cast, but smart play can make them passable in the right hands.
You'll have to outplay most other players to do well with these characters. They have some decent matchups and can work if the novelty and surprise factor is in your favour
They should look into a craft or trade if they expect to succeed.
Mewtwo
Mr. Game and Watch
Yoshi
Roy
Ness

F/Negligible-
These characters have negligible matchups against almost every other character and their best matchups are against mostly the other two characters in the tier.
Only use these characters as a joke or in a low tier side event, as what little novelty they have runs thin immediately after pools.
These three are the class clowns who have no prospect for the future.
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

 

[Habefiet]

Donkey Kong a whole tier above Luigi? Zelda in the same tier as Pikachu and Luigi? I don't know how I feel about that. Donkey Kong in particular. B Tier? Top 20% of the class? DK I've always honestly thought of as being overrated on the current tier list. Care to elaborate?

Wake, your new profile picture seems a little menacing for you.

 

[Kink-Link5]

DK is up there mostly because he ****s all over the other "low" tier characters to the point of being far and away the best choice in a low tier event. I suppose the same is arguable for most of the low tier crapping on the others below them in order, but from what I've seen, DK can more than hold his own with the Mid tier while the others, not so much. The characters are where they are either because of matchups or projected tournament success for the most part. Some are only because of one, some are both.

 

[Wake]

Donkey Kong a whole tier above Luigi? Zelda in the same tier as Pikachu and Luigi? I don't know how I feel about that. Donkey Kong in particular. B Tier? Top 20% of the class? DK I've always honestly thought of as being overrated on the current tier list. Care to elaborate?

Wake, your new profile picture seems a little menacing for you.

Menacing huh? haha I guess first I'm a bit curious about why you would think something is too menacing "for me." We don't talk much!

But anyways, that picture is just a singer that I like. It's not supposed to be menacing, though I can see why people would think that now.

Wait... you even knew that it was new! Do you ever go to tournies? I forget who you are, but I just looked at your location haaa.

 

[Habefiet]

Menacing huh? haha I guess first I'm a bit curious about why you would think something is too menacing "for me." We don't talk much!

But anyways, that picture is just a singer that I like. It's not supposed to be menacing, though I can see why people would think that now.

Wait... you even knew that it was new! Do you ever go to tournies? I forget who you are, but I just looked at your location haaa.

LOOOOOOOOL I never hear about any of the stuff at Games n' Go or wherever but I went to the Middlebrook freebie back in September and to Kevo's event in January. I'm a nobody on a desperate quest to become a somebody. :D I mostly play Puff--I've been considering working on some secondaries, but so far Puff is the only thing I've really used at these events. At the last event right as I was leaving I insisted from across the room at you that we need to play some friendlies at one of these things because we've never played before and you made a face because I play Puff. That might ring a bell. I was hoping to run into you or TripleR in bracket because you were the two not-Foxes that I recognized. Instead I ran into two friends and two Foxes. Woe is me.

Anyway it seems vaguely menacing, which doesn't seem to suit you just because I've never seen you be anything but open and friendly and making this face. Lol.

On-topic with regard to DK and low tiers in general: I feel like I once saw somebody do an analysis of match-up knowledge at the time that ended up saying that Ness was the best character to use in low tier events. Or something. Point being, low tiers are so uncommon that their own match-ups against other low tiers don't really matter much in my opinion. Being able to absolutely wreck... I dunno, let's say Bowser... doesn't really help you much.

I see DK as someone with limited options (particularly against high tiers) compared to certain characters that you placed him above, hence my disagreement.

 

[Wake]

LOOOOOOOOL I never hear about any of the stuff at Games n' Go or wherever but I went to the Middlebrook freebie back in September and to Kevo's event in January. I'm a nobody on a desperate quest to become a somebody. :D I mostly play Puff--I've been considering working on some secondaries, but so far Puff is the only thing I've really used at these events. At the last event right as I was leaving I insisted from across the room at you that we need to play some friendlies at one of these things because we've never played before and you made a face because I play Puff. That might ring a bell. I was hoping to run into you or TripleR in bracket because you were the two not-Foxes that I recognized. Instead I ran into two friends and two Foxes. Woe is me.

Anyway it seems vaguely menacing, which doesn't seem to suit you just because I've never seen you be anything but open and friendly and making this face. Lol.

On-topic with regard to DK and low tiers in general: I feel like I once saw somebody do an analysis of match-up knowledge at the time that ended up saying that Ness was the best character to use in low tier events. Or something. Point being, low tiers are so uncommon that their own match-ups against other low tiers don't really matter much in my opinion. Being able to absolutely wreck... I dunno, let's say Bowser... doesn't really help you much.

I see DK as someone with limited options (particularly against high tiers) compared to certain characters that you placed him above, hence my disagreement.

baahaha I know who you are! Silly me. Well we will play friendlies sometime!

Also, this site http://z6.invisionfree.com/MNSmash/index.php?act=idx is where MN organizes all of its tournies. We're cool like that.

 

[Habefiet]

baahaha I know who you are! Silly me. Well we will play friendlies sometime!

Also, this site http://z6.invisionfree.com/MNSmash/index.php?act=idx is where MN organizes all of its tournies. We're cool like that.

Sweetness. I'll go join that after midterms. *headdesk--I strongly need to get the heck off Smashboards right now* I feel like someone showed me that once before but then I couldn't find it again because I'm terrible sometimes.

So is it generally agreed upon now that Young Link is above Link? I've been seeing that on a lot of people's lists.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The positions in my list are mostly arbitrary.

 

[choknater]

i agree very much with vanz' list, though i think he ignores mario.

kudos vanz

 

[Mew2King]

his list is HORRIBLE LOL

 

[Max?]

it's really not tho. I feel he underrates Falco and Jiggs tho

 

[choknater]

o yea i just chunked top 4 in my head. i agree falco is better than sheik

but he doesn't underrate puff
everyone else overrates her

she is so bad!!!! solid runaway ***** puff sooooo hardddddd

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think she's better at slowly closing off your space than you give her credit for....

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Seems like it depends on the stage and character. Fox & dreamland and it wouldn't seem very easy for jigglypuff to ever corner fox.

 

[choknater]

yea fox ***** lol

tho i think falco is even better at it bc of full hop

anyway perhaps it was a little reductive to just say runaway beats her. also a dominant vertical game can beat her, as well as any move that can contest or defeat her bair (there aren't many but they are there, e.g. falco's laser)

 

[Geenareeno]

Would anyone agree with me if I said that people are overrating Puff because, due to the recent surge of her in the metagame, people haven't 100% learned the matchup. There aren't any matchups right now that people have 100% learned but I feel like large improvements could be made to each characters puff mu. idk...

 

[choknater]

i agree with u geenareeno

i feel i am really good at the matchup but no one thinks i have enough credibility to listen to my advice lol. they are usually very turned off at the get-go because i say very bluntly that puff is not so good. but it is obvious they don't take the time to apply what i suggest

 

[Max?]

Choknater you haven't gotten far enough in bracket/traveled ever to even play Hbox in tournament lol

 

[Warhawk]

@ warhawk: naw, armada is much more consistent than hbox. Also I personally think that peach is as easy to be consistent with as puff anyway. So the 'because he plays puff' wouldn't be my reason anyway

In what ways is he "much more consistent"? I dunno I just have a hard time seeing Hungrybox as that far off from any player right now as he's really good. Also, I apologize for my remark too about snubbing Hungrybox as I realized you weren't doing that really, but the some of the ridiculous comments you see about him on here sometimes really annoy me.


I feel like we're divided into half of us putting Puff in that 3rd place/God tier slot and the other half putting her (it?) in the pre-2007 or so position...

 

[twizzlerj]

i really think puff belongs at 3 the most i can do is put her at 4 after falco,fox and sheik

 

[choknater]

Choknater you haven't gotten far enough in bracket/traveled ever to even play Hbox in tournament lol

i'm sure it will happen. however until then i will hold on to my ideas that have not failed me

 

[Mew2King]

Puff is WAY BETTER than you guys think.

wanna know something interesting? Puff's roll makes her invincible frame 2

every other character (except yoshi at 1) is invincible frame 4

her roll makes her invincible as fast as a dodge.

don't believe me? I have it on my stat site, but superdoodleman got same results too - http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html

it's the little things (THAT'S REALLY HUGE BTW, so she can land an aerial and buffer a roll away, and ESCAPE SHIELD PRESSURE REALLY EASILY BY ROLLING) that matter esp when you consider that....

THE ONLY WAY TO PUNISH IS TO MAKE a HARD-READ vs the roll, otherwise it's safe for her to spam (which is why hbox spams it)

yet, if she makes a hard read on you, you either get up smashed (which can lead to rest) oos, Baired/Naired OOS, or she can even Rest OOS if you try to waveshine past her. There's also up throw rest, and back throw to gimp. So Grab -> good-chance-of-instant-KO as well.

it's HUGE that she is invincible frame 2 on her roll instead of 4 like almost every other character.

so falco or fox is pressuring puff right? falco does a delayed Dair, and if he shines, most chars CANNOT BUFFER ROLL AWAY IN TIME
puff can <_<;
(and even if you get shined by going for a shield grab and missing, it doesn't **** her as badly as most other characters, since they will get comboed hard while puff won't)

Peach is pressuring puff? Just roll away right away every time. I'm not 100% sure, but I think you can roll BEFORE SHE CAN JAB (in either case, she has a 2 frame advantage over EVERY OTHER CHARACTER when peach hits her shield). The only way peach can punish a puff that does this is by making a hard read, such as reading the roll, and maybe getting a dash attack in. Should puff expect this though, Peach could potentially get rested, if not hit with something else. Just being able to mix up things like rolls with rest OOS/grabs (grabs vs fox/falco anyway, or back throwing a large portion of the cast to a gimp or edge hog rest) is VERY POWERFUL to have and mix up.

also, if u mess up EVEN A BIT, she can rest OOS or up throw to rest you

the risk/reward situations she has, both in theory AND in practice, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU CONSIDER EASE OF USE/BEING CONSISTENT, AND HUMAN-MISTAKES THAT HAPPEN TIME TO TIME, the overall conclusion is she is REALLY good at that.

I definitely think Puff is a top 2 character in practice. AT VERY WORST 3rd, but she's wAY easier to play at her max level than it is to play fox at his max level, especially when you play a top player that will give you MAXIUMUM PUNISHMENT (like try playing me/mango when we're warmed up, if you mess up OR GUESS WRONG/GET READ, we will often 0-death you for your mistake, while puff will get hit like... once or twice usually). You have to consider things like:
1) ease of being consistent (VERY IMPORTANT)
2) Rest being a OHKO/Grabs very frequently, with both up and back throws for different situations, being a OHKO (VERY IMPORTANT)
3) not being punished as hard by top pros at the top of the metagame. (VERY IMPORTANT). In other words, Fox gets 0-deathed, while Jiggs gets hit twice, for making a read on each of them, because of their weight+falling speed differences. IF JIGGS MAKES A READ ON YOU THOUGH, YOU'RE USUALLY DEAD

Things like these are HUGE, and definitely factors on where they each deserve to be on the tier list.

I think Puff is better than Fox in a practical human level for sure. Not a perfect fox, but a realistic, good human fox. She has both results and theory that should have her be above Fox, and has deserved to be above him for quite some time.

(More food for thought: Imagine if Hbox planked [and did it as well as me or better] every time he got the lead. How gay would this game be?)

I hope you're all trying to learn from the stuff I said, I just threw TONS of stuff at you at once most of you probably haven't thought through as much as I have cuz I'm a nerd that's played this game too long, but I have GOOD REASON(s) to believe Puff is a clearly underrated character and right now I believe she DEFINITELY deserves the spot over Fox on the tier list (below falco unless she planks).

It's fine if you guys don't all agree, but I still feel most of you SEVERELY underrate her, and I hope my explanations helped explain some of the reasons why I think she's the ridiculously good character that she really is. There's probably a lot more I missed; this was just from the top of my head.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sometimes I wonder why M2K still talks like that after being on this site for 10 years.

I mean, his points are legit, but this isn't IM...

Oh, and planking still doesn't work until you prove it does.

 

[Mew2King]

ur dumb, believe what you want then, it IS really powerful. Put it this way, if puff has a STOCK LEAD vs a fox, esp if she's at kill %, she can sit on the ledge, not have to worry about Fox's kill moves (specifically grabs and up smashes), while forcing Fox to risk being gimped over and over. Even if you don't get a gimp, you can hold off that stock far longer than you'd be able to otherwise, by doing ledge hop Fairs (sometimes dairs, and different timings as mixups, but the point is you have a REALLY BIG ADVANTAGE OVERALL by doing this esp if you do it INTELLIGENTLY) safely.

Instead of being a ~50/50 MU, once she starts planking, it's like 80/20 or so (arbitrary numbers, but hopefully you understand the idea/point I am trying to make at least) until she dies, where she can then decide to keep planking, or wait until she gets to kill % before planking again. It IS as good as I am saying, just because I don't want to do a boring tactic where I NEED TO GET THE LEAD (since i don't have faith in my puff as opposed to my best characters where at least I can solidly fight against whoever) to do it. I can show where puff can plank really well, and you can see how well hbox can bair/fight, so it shouldn't be hard to combine both elements. EVEN IF you were to take planking out of the equation, I still think she's top 3 character due to tourney results + theory. As an overall best character, I def think sheik would be the best no contest, but unfortunately as a tourney threat, it doesn't matter how much of an advantage you have over Bowser if all the other characters beat them anyway, so I feel those things are unpractical (at one point when I mained sheik I said she was the best, but realized her bad matchups happened to be IMPORTANT MUs, so it's not that practical, and being practical is VERY IMPORTANT FOR TOURNAMENTS).

gonna sleep, midterm tomorrow, night. If nothing else, at least learn from the information I am giving you all.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I won't believe she can plank until I see it. Simple as that.

 

[stelzig]

It's not like anyone has had much of a chance to find holes in the planking outside of theory bros (where I believe magus showed that it was very beatable) as no one is really doing it yet. Even if it worked at first, it doesn't mean it would keep working. Eventually it might even lead to possible gimps on puff for some characters as well, who knows.

For the shield stuff, I wonder why you wouldn't just not be on top of puffs shield? Seems pretty simple to me to go outside of puffs range when predicting/reading a roll so you don't get hard punished if you were wrong. But i'm guessing i'm missing something here? (Edit: With below comment... Even more reason to just do this...)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Puffs roll is only invincible on her forward roll on frame 2 rather than her backward roll. Her backward one is frame 4 like everyone else.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If we end up putting in a LGL as soon as someone planks like we did in Brawl, instead of learning how to beat it...

*sigh in advance*