Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Strong Badam]

Random rant, don't know where to put it:
No matter what character you choose, there will always be situations where you're like "Man, I wish I could edgeguard like Marth does" or "I wish I were hard to combo like Jiggs is" or " I wish I had ******** shield pressure like Fox or Falco does." It's really hard to go "Hey, I'm glad my character can do X." I wish people would be more thankful for what their character CAN do that other characters can't rather than be thinking about what other characters can do that yours can't.

Cuz my character sucks but I love him and will never give him up <3

 

[JPOBS]

^ Pretty much that

 

[leffen]

Im gonna get so depressed if even one of you guys agree with something hax said in that post

seriously, that has to be one of the worst post i've ever read

I dont even know where to begin

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm glad my character can downsmash noobs and get 80% on them. Is that good enough? =D

I don't exactly like getting into "which character requires more skill" discussions, because those are, like Hax said, subjective. I find myself somewhat in accordance with the Puff stuff, but you can't say that she requires no risk. Rest is probably the riskiest move in this entire game. And I would also say that she struggles a bit to get that one read she needs for the kill. But yes, she does get a large amount of reward per move compared to other characters, I guess?

Marth is better than Peach, but your reasoning was odd. Sure, Marth requires a different type of skillset, but I wouldn't say he requires less precision. The fact that his hitboxes stay out for such short times would probably lean towards him require a good deal of precision, because you have to time around spotdodges (which are good against him) and other crap that gives Marth trouble (like those moves that are stellar at getting beneath him, like Peach/Sheik dash attacks. He doesn't have a hitbox down their that stays out and comes out quickly to protect him, so protecting that area is EXTREMELY vital for Marth players. Peach has the same issue, but it isn't as bad).

 

[Niko45]

That Marth/Peach stuff was just brutal.

 

[john!]

since hax is a super-skilled falcon player (who is also awesome and manly, like all falcon players), and jiggs gets so much reward for so little skill, we can conclude that the only reason hax doesn't destroy every opponent with his jigglypuff is because he's too awesome and manly to use her.

p.s. since all other characters besides puff are "extremely skillful", this applies to everyone else too. what an awesome and manly community we have.

 

[Wake]

Im gonna get so depressed if even one of you guys agree with something hax said in that post

seriously, that has to be one of the worst post i've ever read

I dont even know where to begin

But didn't he agree with you on the Marth above Peach argument?

 

[leffen]

He also agrees with me that fox isn't the worst character in the game

I was more referring it to on how he reasoned it rather than the placements

 

[Wake]

He also agrees with me that fox isn't the worst character in the game

I was more referring it to on how he reasoned it rather than the placements

Just be happy you guys agreed on something for once!

 

[Hax]

i don't play puff because up until very recently, i played this game entirely for fun. imo, puff is not fun. now that i'm starting to have to deal with real life ****, i value the money to be won, but not to the extent that i'd ditch my favorite character just to win. even if i did, i'd probably have much more success with fox or falco because the transition from falcon to spacies is much easier.

nobody is suggesting that puff has wesker-esque levels of fraudulence; no character in melee is like that. i would still have to spend months playing her, which i don't feel like doing just to prove my point.

 

[leffen]

Considering how Wesker isn't even close to the best character (although hes probably top tier) so I can almost agree on that point

 

[JPOBS]

since hax is a super-skilled falcon player (who is also awesome and manly, like all falcon players), and jiggs gets so much reward for so little skill, we can conclude that the only reason hax doesn't destroy every opponent with his jigglypuff is because he's too awesome and manly to use her.

p.s. since all other characters besides puff are "extremely skillful", this applies to everyone else too. what an awesome and manly community we have.

All sarcasm aside, I don't see why this shouldn't be a valid reason for not playing puff.

There isn't any money in melee. There is next to 0 incentive to pick any other character besides your favorite because honestly, the money you make in melee is chump change.

If this was like halo or Starcraft, where you stand to make upwards of $100,000 per tourny, then sure, I would laugh and say "lol play to win if puff is so ez mode" too. But the fact is, Melee is a poor man's game, so its totally legit to just be awesome and manly instead of using boring ol puff.

 

[Mahone]

eh, i could argue about puff not being fake/phony/exposed or whatever the hell new york is saying nowadays but i'm not a top player so i don't think hax or m2k will really care... instead i have this:

Mango (///) -
1. 2.


M2K (//) -
1. (planking) 2.


Hbox () -
1. ? 2. ? - Not sure, but def. not puff as 1 or 2


Armada () -
No idea, maybe leffen knows, but sounds like not peach


Hax ()
1. (realistically) 2. / (theory)


Dr.Peepee () -
1. 2. (based on podcast, maybe its different now)


You can notice a pattern here lol, but the most interesting thing is that both mango and m2k play at least 3 characters I would say are in the top 5, yet they both put the 2 they don't use as 1. and 2.

 

[choknater]

according to his interview with tai, hbox puts jigglypuff at 7th in the tier list, after falcon.

i agree with him. that was her placing before mango and hbox started winning and skewed everyone's perspective. i think that judgement still stands and she loses hard to zoning and a faster runaway.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Mango says the top 4 are tied evenly

fox/marth/sheik/falco

Something about having traits more defensive or offensively geared than the others and they balance each other out.


Example: Fox is better at getting a hit, while sheik is better at keeping away and playing defensively. This is balance.


Mango's words(basically), not mine.

I asked him a couple weeks ago.

 

[Niko45]

Personally in thinking about a tier list this is what I think (not even joking). In this game, there are characters that have a shine. After that, there's also a character that has a rest.

After that there's everyone else.

 

[twizzlerj]

Personally in thinking about a tier list this is what I think (not even joking). In this game, there are characters that have a shine. After that, there's also a character that has a rest.

After that there's everyone else.

yea this sums it up nicely and i was in the mood to start the peach marth debate again but **** it i had my fun people can think what they want.

 

[Max?]

A few things, I'm not going to multi quote cause it will take too long and I'll probably forget stuff, but oh well.

1.) This thread is ****ing awful

2.) NO ONE here addressed my point that I made in my post last night:

What has Marth done AT ALL since the metagame has gotten more advanced? What evidence is there that he is undeveloped? Is it possible that Marth, the character with the MOST success for the first 5 years of this game, was completely figured out? Not just in terms of his efficiency, but also how to fight against him? Is it also possible, that characters like Jiggs and Peach, who have NOT had Top Level representation up until recently, could in fact be BETTER than him?

Once again, WHAT HAS MARTH DONE AT ALL in the last 4 ****ing years besides beat spacies, and lose to Top Level spacies. Note that once again, the ONLY notable Marth main has more or less switched entirely to Sheik, except for ONE matchup which he has figured out like a science.

Hax, you can argue that Peach's stuff takes more "skill" or "Units of Effort", but once again, show me EVIDENCE. Right now, all I see is Peach ******, and Marth's getting exposed. Also, how is Peach knocking Fox offstage and going for a Fair risky at ALL? And where does Marth have these "huge windows of error" to do moves? You realize his hitbox's are out for like, 2 frames? and then he's just sitting in lag for hours before he can react again?

3.) Leffen, your list of "matchups" in comparing Peach/Marth are based on HISTORY, and NOT what is happening right now. Show me a video of a Fox beating Armada EVER. Once again, you can argue "well that's one player, Fox's need to catch up, etc" but I think it's a little deeper than that. Once again, we HAVE to look at tournament results, because they are the ONLY thing we have to gauge what is happening at this VERY moment.

Also, the argument that Marth's nowadays are "not playing the matchup right" and should beat "x" character, is ONCE AGAIN, another example of HISTORY dictating opinions and NOT showing what is ACTUALLY happening at this point in time in the metagame. Perhaps, characters have surpassed what Marth is capable of, and now he can't keep up with what is going on anymore.

That or maybe all the Marth mains are ***? Why did m2k switch again? Oh right, it's because Marth can't go any farther and was figured out a LOOOOONG time ago.

I would argue that Peach's matchups atm are better than Marth's vs. a large majority of the cast, and where Marth has annoyingish matchups vs. a number of floaties/mid tiers, Peach just ***** them with her walling, better recovery, and KO ability.


TL;DR version
It's not 2007 anymore guys, Marth hasn't been relevant or done **** in almost 5 years. Show me evidence to the contrary, seriously.

4.) Jpobs, stay real. Kage, I'll do what I can. All top players think their character choice isn't the best, ESPECIALLY the one's who win. They are all frauds tho (especially the Falco and Jiggs players). M2k needs to stop johning and put his money where his mouth is.

Mango is the homie, Armada is a real *** *****.



I'm out

 

[john!]

> calls top players frauds for underrating their own mains
> makes huge sweeping generalizations and blatant exaggerations about how bad marth is

mmk

 

[Max?]

I'm not saying Marth is bad at all. But I do not think it's a huge stretch to say that he is worse than people seem to place him in the tier list. I also feel Peach is underrated at this point and time just like Puff was 2.5 years ago.

You also, as usual, have completely not addressed any of my points or issues I brought up. EVIDENCE

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Peach is definitely not underrated. Unlike puff, who actually was shown to have stuff nobody had really abused, such as how self protecting her bair is and how efficiently rests can take stocks and keep a lead, armada simply does marginally more efficient combos and shows a much higher level of patience.

 

[Bones0]

@Mahone
EXPOSED. lol I agree with your sentiment. I always feel people overrate Falco, so you can add that to your list of amazing players that feel their char's abilities is blown out of proportion. ;D

Honestly, I think it's just a result of not being able to discern skill others are using. When you're getting chain grabbed or auto-combo'd, it's easy to think, "Wow, this character/tactic is so unfair." It's a combination of a little bit of scrub mentality (no one wants to blame themselves for every little mistake) and sheer obliviousness to what is being done. It's not even just the simple stuff. Stuff as abstract as spacing and timing can play a huge role in how effective a tactic or character is, and it's pretty difficult to tell how much work your opponent must do to land hits or avoid hits or w/e when you are playing. I would like to hear the opinion of someone who has learned a lot about Melee and all of the characters, but who has never been biased by actually playing the game. I think they'd be able to give a much more accurate view of the metagame depending on how well they understood the game. Everyone knows there's two sides to every story:

Fox: YO MARTH, I CAN'T CC YOU. SO CHEAP.
Marth: GAH, I HAVE TO TIPPER EVERYTHING OR ELSE I GET CC *****.

Falco: YO MARTH, I CAN'T APPROACH CAUSE OF YOUR GIANT *** SWORD.
Marth: GOT HIT BY A LASER AND COMBO'D TO DEATH. COOL BRAH.

I am only capable of listing spacies vs. Marth examples, but you get the idea. >_>


@OTG
I'm sure someone will go "OMG I SAW KEN DO THAT ONCE," but for the most part, Marth has seen a decent number of "recent" innovations.
- Reverse fair -> fsmash/dair
- Ending combos with up-B instead of dair
- Edgeguarding with reverse up-Bs
- Tomahawks
- Dsmash

I also think he has a lot of room for innovation with some of his more unorthodox moves that I HAVE seen utilized once or twice, but then I never see it again. Mostly speaking of his B moves (side B, neutral B, and counter).

Reversing moves and tomahawks have also grown in popularity with other characters, but I don't think that should take away from what Marth has gained by having those new tools. And yeah, they aren't all invented-by-Mango-in-the-past-month new, but they also have yet to be commonly applied by Marth mains, even the top ones.

I just have a hard time believing Marth is tapped out, especially with so little top-level representation to prove it. I think Marth players in general are way too obsessed with spacies matchups (because, let's be honest, it's the most fun comboing in the entire game haha), and more precisely, obsessed with punishment. It doesn't surprise me Peach/Jiggs feel impossible for all the Marth mains who have been practicing chain grabs and combos on Fox and Falco for 10 years. When someone who mains Marth devotes all of their improvement to punishing harder, it seems expected that they will struggle against the characters that are punished the least by combos.

I'm not trying to make any remark on where Marth should be on the tier list because, frankly, I honestly dgaf about anyone's list. I just think he has plenty of room for improvement if skilled players make the effort to innovate, the same as any character. People love to rant about how spacies have infinite options, but maybe that's just because half the community mains and secondaries them, and they are led by a player like Mango who has innovated more in Melee than any other player in history. I won't get into whether Mango truly "invented" a lot of the stuff he does, but he sure as hell popularized a lot of things, and when any player loves to innovate and dominates tournaments, their character is always going to seem like it's making leaps and bounds even if the same ideas can be applied to others.

I'm just ranting completely off-topic **** at this point, so I'll shut up.

 

[Mew2King]

so who wants to money match my puff? i'd prolly agree vs most of you

 

[Bones0]

so who wants to money match my mewtwo? i'd prolly agree vs most of you

I already felt your wrath in teams friendlies at Apex. You definitely changed my mind about where he should be on the tier list by man-handling me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

so who wants to money match my puff? i'd prolly agree vs most of you

I'll do it!

 

[Hax]

so who wants to money match my puff? i'd prolly agree vs most of you

inb4 $1 MM

 

[Mew2King]

Mango says the top 4 are tied evenly

fox/marth/sheik/falco

Something about having traits more defensive or offensively geared than the others and they balance each other out.


Example: Fox is better at getting a hit, while sheik is better at keeping away and playing defensively. This is balance.


Mango's words(basically), not mine.

I asked him a couple weeks ago.

I disagree PP, at TOP level play, i believe being able to KILL SOMEONE off of 1 hit (when they are entirely at the mercy of you messing up or not) is really, really powerful, when they can't do anything about it. This is why I think marth ***** fox on FD (if i don't mess up, fox can't do anything about it until really high %), and falco ***** most chars and fox is top 3 for sure and jiggs ***** (she 0-deaths people, but you can't 0-death her). Marth ***** at 0-deaths and offensively he's godlike but unlike puff he gets ***** BAD when he gets hit. Watch how armada (PEACH, an average edge guarding character more or less) edge guards EVERY top marth, it's lack of options. I feel like ease of use, and the ability to 0-death Vs. ability to get 0-deathed is really really important in tiers (not entirely literally, but you kinda get what I'm saying). I would put falcon as top tier EASY on offense only, but since he gets 0-deathed by so many chars I'd put him below ICs probably. ICs being able to 0-death so many characters is really huge, although their defense is also one of the worst so they can't go much higher than above falcon. This is all imo, but it's how I see the game at a maxed out human level.

 

[unknown522]

Be prepared to lose some money m2k

 

[twizzlerj]

so who wants to money match my puff? i'd prolly agree vs most of you

lmao just no. What tournament will you be at in New Jersey next i want to get some friendlies against you maybe after some fun friendlies you can whip out the puff and kick my *** with her like you do with the characters before hand the only problem is i wont be that happy but i need to learn how to fight puff so yea

 

[Mew2King]

yea mewtwos **** if u dont know how to fight him, otherwise he's not nearly as good cuz of his weight and how he gets ***** so hard from combos+big size+lightweight

 

[Warhawk]

Peach is definitely not underrated. Unlike puff, who actually was shown to have stuff nobody had really abused, such as how self protecting her bair is and how efficiently rests can take stocks and keep a lead, armada simply does marginally more efficient combos and shows a much higher level of patience.

I'm not going to go as far as some other people in here that seem to act like Marth isn't really good anymore, but its not like Peach only has Armada going for her. Vanz and MacD outplaced every Marth as well at Apex. Showing ways to make her more efficient and how greater patience can make Peach more useable is improving Peach as a character, even if he's not creating any groundbreaking new techniques. I think with the current metagame that Peach should at least occupy the 5th spot with Marth and more than that I can't say.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

EDIT: Nevermind, mega ninja'd.

 

[unknown522]

I mostly agree on m2k's offense vs defense post. Ease of use and whatever. Still I think that we value the characters differently in spite of this.

IMO currently:

Falco
Fox
Sheik
Marth
Jiggs
Peach
Falcon
ICs
Doc
Samus
Ganon
Luigi
Pikachu
Mario
DK?

I think that marth and jiggs can maybe be interchangable. Peach, falcon and ICs. Also fox and sheik maybe. I think the top 8 are within a good margin, so they can all compete pretty well.

 

[Bones0]

M2K, could you describe how you believe you would perform if you had dedicated all of your time up to this point to any one character (Marth, Sheik, and Fox each)? This is just a fun hypothetical, but I'm curious how you think about each character and what strengths/weaknesses they have in today's metagame, and in specific matchups (like whether or not Marth vs. Sheik would hold you back, etc.).

 

[Mew2King]

idk max just said put my money where my mouth is so i will (unlike most people)

i used to say sheik was THE BEST when I truely believed she was THE BEST. I then went out to try to prove it and I 4 stocked darkrain and pc that same year in tournament and used mostly her. I say what I honestly think based off of new things I learn. I don't think falco's the best cuz of him not being my top 3 (even though he's better than my fox in a lot of MUs), I think it because of seeing Mango 0-death me (I know it's hard to do, but it's quite obviously consistently do-able by being a smart, skilled player in practice) and PP shut down options. The character's ability to do that is ridiculous. Mango's Fox is the best in the world, but I usually beat it, where his falco constantly 2 stocks me. I don't think fox is as good as everyone else does cuz I know how to exploit him. It's mostly his lack of range and ability to get 0-deathed. His combos can be DId down and then you can tech randomly (in place or a tech roll) during his nair combos, his Dair can be DId and a perfect nair OOS has about even advantage as a Fox doing drill shines on your shield (mathematically it's pretty even and in my experience feels that way too, also, when I do this, I'm in the air even if I get shined if I do it right away, so I get shined for 4 damage at worst and get away safely. If falco shines in that same situation, I get put in huge hitstun no matter what, but fox I can get away easily. Hopefully you guys are paying attention to what I'm saying; I'm trying to explain my honest reasoning why I think fox isn't as good as he's hyped to be, although still easily top 3).

 

[Mew2King]

fox would prolly be the best, but to use him at his best potential, you need a really good controller. Falco a bit less because he's less demanding, and puff even less than that. These are factors (esp in Jiggs vs Fox) in tier listing, because one is much easier to play constantly at a top level than another, and when you factor in human error and risk/reward ratios I think these are way more important than theory that never happens or happens once every few years like once or w/e

my marth i think was super **** and i could prolly bring him back strong if i really put the time into it and had godlike controllers like before, but it's not worth it for me as I'm getting older (I'm 23 lol) and I need to move on with life (Esp cuz smash barely pays compared to years ago now), but it is my honest opinion. In my prime year, 2007, I jv 5 stocked people about ~40 times just that year, and like 100 really-close-to-jv-5s. Tons of different people, usually with marth, but the other third was with a bunch of my various characters. Now I totally understand that a big reason that I do way worse now is because people are better, but at the same time, I was really truely a LOT better back then (marth specifically I am talking about), esp at the tourneys that they didn't record (I blogged about it on my myspace back in 07), FC:D and evo east/west (before the finals on evo east, I was just ****** everyone. I know wobbles was way worse back then for example, but i almost 4 stocked him one game which is insane considering he almost beat chu in their set, and I jv 5d a samus in tournament at evo west and beat everyone 3-0 except 6-1 vs pc). FCD was my best but they lost like every vid. But yea that is my honest opinion, and it's why I don't necessarily say peach > marth, armada's just how I used to be but with a different character in a more advanced metagame, and he deserves to be the best player right now for sure esp since his char is only 5th/6th. Armada to melee right now is like what i was to brawl during my prime year (2010 MLG), except with a worse character.

 

[Strong Badam]

dk is better than mario imo, MAYBE luigi but probably not.

 

[unknown522]

Yes m2k. A lot of fox's moves are pretty inconsistent

 

[ShroudedOne]

*sigh*

Then let's put Fox below Peach, Falco, and Puff, because there isn't any Fox main consistently ****** with him.

This is ridiculous.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Our Mexican Overlord will show us the way.