Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[john!]

i disagree.

three moves i can immediately think of that armada uses differently from previous peach mains: dtilt, usmash, uair

he also uses turnips in his edgeguarding more effectively than any previous peaches

the thing is that very few people in the US watched armada's videos before genesis 1. he has been doing these things for a very long time.

 

[twizzlerj]

ShroudedOne say what you will but its like asking me why i say the sky is blue it just is. I say peach is better then marth. Discuss all you like i wont be persuaded mainly since i barely care. The sky can turn green one day and maybe just maybe then marth will be better then peach.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ShroudedOne say what you will but its like asking me why i say the sky is blue it just is. I say peach is better then marth. Discuss all you like i wont be persuaded mainly since i barely care. The sky can turn green one day and maybe just maybe then marth will be better then peach.

this is the dumbest post i've ever seen in my entire life

 

[FrootLoop]

lol sveet is right

 

[twizzlerj]

this is the dumbest post i've ever seen in my entire life

well i achieved something on this site today but i really just don't care anymore honestly know,think,say and do whatever you want its just a game play it enjoy discuss it argue about it.

i have seen much worse but yea i was going for something really dumb and yea that worked.

 

[john!]

i just don't know anymore

 

[FrootLoop]

well i achieved something on this site today but i really just don't care anymore honestly know,think,say and do whatever you want its just a game play it enjoy discuss it argue about it.

i have seen much worse but yea i was going for something really dumb and yea that worked.

I take it back sveet
edit: john is right tho

 

[Warhawk]

This. Armada isn't doing new Peach things that we've never seen before (watching older Peaches helped me realize where a LOT of the similarities are). He's just doing everything exceedingly well, and it shows.

Not that I think Peach is godly or anything, but just because nothing new is being shown doesn't necessarily make it so that Armada isn't showing Peach can be better than she is perceived. You could argue that he is showing that utilizing her tools a certain, more effective way improves her viability. It would be like those people who argue Fox isn't number one because its humanly impossible to achieve the level of consistency needed to make him the best were shown a player or better yet players who did have that level of consistency. They would be forced to reconsider their opinion, even though the particular Fox players aren't even necessarily doing anything new, they're just executing and utilizing those techniques better.

 

[Mew2King]

tell hbox to use non-puff in a big tourney then <_<. He says puff is lower than falcon cuz he wants more credit, falcons like 8th because of how badly you can 0-death him at top level play with so many characters. Puff can also 0-death, but has top tier recovery not low, and doesn't get 0-deathed (and/or put into really really bad situations) like falcon. Those are 2 very, very important factors at top level play.

 

[twizzlerj]

tell hbox to use non-puff in a big tourney then <_<. He says puff is lower than falcon cuz he wants more credit, falcons like 8th because of how badly you can 0-death him at top level play with so many characters. Puff can also 0-death, but has top tier recovery not low, and doesn't get 0-deathed (and/or put into really really bad situations) like falcon. Those are 2 very, very important factors at top level play.

positive puff is locked at third and can be argued that sheik is tied with her

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Is C tier Upper Mid?

I assume it's like this:

S - Top tier
A - High tier
B, C - Upper Mid
D - Mid tier
E - Low Mid
F - Low
G - Bottom

 

[Hax]

in theory puff is 3rd (within the realm of humanly capable stuff), in reality she's the best in the game

she breaks the game in terms of technical skill/mental thought required; she gives you the most reward per unit of skill you put in by a longshot. honestly, this alone should warrant a #1 spot on the tier list; it's just the fox/falco theorycrafting that keeps people from putting her there.

she automatically has highly favorable matchups vs 80% of the cast because they have no response to either her fair ledgestalling (which nobody uses) or her cc which plenty of characters cannot grab (such a thing should never have been put in the game); usually both.

hbox saying that she's below falcon, let alone not in the top 3, suggests either an attempt to gain credit or.. extreme levels of fraudulence? hopefully the former..

i'm sorry juan, but that is a horrendously scrubby statement

edit: here's my tier list. it's based on the highest level of play i believe is humanly capable at this point, which is why i put jigglypuff 3rd. at semi-pro levels and below, though, i believe she is #1.

SSS: Fox, Falco
SS: Jigglypuff
S: Sheik
A: Marth, Peach
B: Ice Climbers, C. Falcon, Dr. Mario (constant debate between ic's/falcon. falcon wins the head to head, ic's does much better vs top tiers)
C: Samus, Pikachu, Ganondorf, Luigi (pika/ganon are close. i put pika higher because he has more potential)

below C is unviable. MAAAAAYBE mario is viable

 

[Construct]

Not to trod on anyone's toes, but if Jigglypuff is so godly (and personally I think she should be brought slightly lower on the list if anything), why is there such a scarcity of puff players? In particular high-level puff players? More top level Ganons and Samuses come to mind than Puffs. Why?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Puff to a majority of melee players is the anti-melee.

Everything these poeple enjoy about melee, jigglypuff tears that away from them and they cry about it.

 

[Construct]

....That's actually probably it haha. Fair enough.

 

[john!]

Not to trod on anyone's toes, but if Jigglypuff is so godly (and personally I think she should be brought slightly lower on the list if anything), why is there such a scarcity of puff players? In particular high-level puff players? More top level Ganons and Samuses come to mind than Puffs. Why?

if it was so easy to be so good with puff, then more people would definitely use her in tournament.

unfortunately puff is not easy, and people have a hard time admitting this to themselves.

 

[Mew2King]

no way, im like 3rd best puff and i barely play her, she's really easy, she's just the most boring char to play

if u wanna make the argument of few puff players, how about how well the puff players that exist do? They generally do pretty well. You can make an argument for any case that you're trying to prove. I think puff's ridiculously good cuz she can 0-death you off 1 read (like ice climbers in brawl which is why I think they're S tier in that game) but you can't easily 0-death hear

 

[twizzlerj]

hbox mango then m2k with puff i can strangely believe that lol

 

[Max?]

Lmao, this ****ing website....

I just have to ask the general community here before I dive into some posts here. What has Marth (and thus marth mains) done in the last 2.5 years besides beat spacies, and lose to Top Level spacies (and everyone else for that matter)?

Anyone?

Seriously, I'm waiting for an answer here.

How is it such an unfathomable idea that Peach is better than Marth on the tier list? Because there is only ONE Peach main doing stuff? Because history has told us that Marth > Peach? Because up until 2008 Marth was the most successful tourney character? Because MidwestrandomMarth69 beat ScrubPeach420 at the last Midwest Regional and then posted on the boards about it? Because UmbreonMow taught m2k everything he knows back in 2002 and thus we should pay attention to him?

I just have to point out that, just as there is only ONE top Peach main, there is only ONE top Marth main atm ... and he dropped the character for Sheik in EVERY matchup except Fox, who Marth beats unless the Fox hits buttons PERFECTLY and never messes up. Marth hasn't done **** in the last few years, and based on the Marth boards and tournament results that's not looking to change any time soon.

As much as I hate to say it, tournament results really do dictate the metagame (at least at Top Level). Theory crafting and history lessons from people who have NEVER been relevant in the scene are nice, but do not reflect what is actually going on.

In the words of Mow, stay free Smash community. Armada is the business and Falco mains are frauds.

I dont see any peach advances from armada. Hes just very consistent. Peach still has a lot of terrible matchups, enough so that armada won't even play peach against all characters.

All characters ..... as in HBox's puff?

tell hbox to use non-puff in a big tourney then <_<.

Agreed.

in theory puff is 3rd (within the realm of humanly capable stuff), in reality she's the best in the game

she breaks the game in terms of technical skill/mental thought required; she gives you the most reward per unit of skill you put in by a longshot. honestly, this alone should warrant a #1 spot on the tier list; it's just the fox/falco theorycrafting that keeps people from putting her there.

she automatically has highly favorable matchups vs 80% of the cast because they have no response to either her fair ledgestalling (which nobody uses) or her cc which plenty of characters cannot grab (such a thing should never have been put in the game); usually both.

hbox saying that she's below falcon, let alone not in the top 3, suggests either an attempt to gain credit or.. extreme levels of fraudulence? hopefully the former..

i'm sorry juan, but that is a horrendously scrubby statement

edit: here's my tier list. it's based on the highest level of play i believe is humanly capable at this point, which is why i put jigglypuff 3rd. at semi-pro levels and below, though, i believe she is #1.

SSS: Fox, Falco
SS: Jigglypuff
S: Sheik
A: Marth, Peach
B: Ice Climbers, C. Falcon, Dr. Mario (constant debate between ic's/falcon. falcon wins the head to head, ic's does much better vs top tiers)
C: Samus, Pikachu, Ganondorf, Luigi (pika/ganon are close. i put pika higher because he has more potential)

below C is unviable. MAAAAAYBE mario is viable

Solid list, tho once again, I dont think its a stretch at all to say Peach > Marth at this point and time. Yes due to history, Marth > Peach, but maybe you can give me a solid justification for his placement above her.

no way, im like 3rd best puff and i barely play her

Lmao, oh m2k, never stop posting


Jpobs, you keep on being one of the few real *****s on this website. Don't let the scrubs keep you down

 

[Fletch]

no way, im like 3rd best puff and i barely play her, she's really easy, she's just the most boring char to play

if u wanna make the argument of few puff players, how about how well the puff players that exist do? They generally do pretty well. You can make an argument for any case that you're trying to prove. I think puff's ridiculously good cuz she can 0-death you off 1 read (like ice climbers in brawl which is why I think they're S tier in that game) but you can't easily 0-death hear

Why don't you play Jiggs in a national? It would really lend some credence to Jiggs placement if you could take him/her to a top 5 position in a huge tourney, and if you are the 3rd best Jiggs player and she is as good as you say, I really think that should be possible.

 

[Strong Badam]

read his post. "she's just the most boring char to play"

 

[john!]

this thread blows now

i just typed out a long post calling out a bunch of people but it's not even worth it

just try to keep your personal biases about your mains out of the argument please...

 

[Strong Badam]

donkey kong is best character! eh likes to bair and doesn't afraid of anything

 

[ShroudedOne]

hegikwerujenflkf

you guys are idiots. Not bothering.

 

[JPOBS]

lol OTG knows whats good.

shoutouts to ice climbers, pikachu and doc having more notable players than marth.

 

[Divinokage]

OTG, just come to Toronto this summer with PC and I'll hook you up. =D

 

[Tekk]

oh my god this page LOL

no way, im like 3rd best puff and i barely play her, she's really easy, she's just the most boring char to play

sigging this, it's beautiful

 

[Mahone]

lol, its pretty cool that ive been hearing the same **** for like 2 years now....

"puff is the best, she's so easy to play"

"why don't you play her and prove it then?"

"it's not fun, shes so gay."



... well thats fine and all if you don't wanna be gay or whatever, but then you need to stop talking like you could do it if you wanted to... cuz guess what, you couldn't... and you couldn't possible know if you could UNTIL YOU HAVE ACTUALLY TRIED IT.

 

[Blistering Speed]

SSS: Fox, Falco
SS: Jigglypuff
S: Sheik
A: Marth, Peach
B: Ice Climbers, C. Falcon, Dr. Mario

This is my exact list, with some tier break variations.

Lol, smash scene so fake. Your rationale for putting Peach above Marth is literally entirely because the best player in the world mains her. There's absolutely no other reasoning. If you have a trace of objectivity, and can analyse the characters in a vacuum, it's very obvious who the better character is. It's not inertia, or stubbornness, it's because the characters and the metagame don't ****ing change every ****ing five minutes.

You watch. If PeePee starts bringing out the Marth or something, people's opinions will flip round again so fast your head will spin.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach's ability to function out of shield is not to be ****ed with. Neither is her ability to simply hit through a shield.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Marth will have his day again

 

[stelzig]

I think hate from others has more influence on puffs popularity than how fun or hard the player finds her. Part of the reason I gave up on sheik for over a year was that I was tired of people dismissing anything sheik players did (it wasn't the only reason, but it was part of it).

I do also agree that puff is overrated though, but i'm sure there's a fair number of people who don't main her because they know it will be much harder to gain any respect for using her.

Also... I find puff kinda fun to mess around with, especially in teams

Edit: Every characters is also a little harder to use in the end than most players seem to think for any other character than the one they are using themselves. If people have trouble thinking of stuff to improve with their puff from the get-go then they probably won't find her as easy/good in the long run.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

All characters ..... as in HBox's puff?

I don't think you understand what an exception is.

 

[Habefiet]

The hate on Puff is definitely a big part of the lack of Puff players, IMO, because I've experienced enough of it even at tiny locals that it makes me want to switch characters sometimes just because I know that if I ever get anywhere, over half this community won't acknowledge it as skill and will john away everything I've worked for.

M2K, you play(ed) Meta Knight in Brawl and went into a decent amount of your matches with the intention of timing someone out, so I don't really buy the "it's too boring for me" bit. I'm not saying you're not an amazing Puff. Wouldn't know. Never seen it. Hell, I bet you probably are. I've got a ton of respect for you as a player. But your rationale for not bringing the Puff out, at least in some friendlies, seems like silliness.

Never bought the no-skill stuff. Learn your damn spacing.

Never agreed with the no-fun stuff either.

Haters gonna hate.

 

[KrIsP!]

^i thoroughly enjoyed that.

 

[twizzlerj]

This is my exact list, with some tier break variations.

Lol, smash scene so fake. Your rationale for putting Peach above Marth is literally entirely because the best player in the world mains her. There's absolutely no other reasoning. If you have a trace of objectivity, and can analyse the characters in a vacuum, it's very obvious who the better character is. It's not inertia, or stubbornness, it's because the characters and the metagame don't ****ing change every ****ing five minutes.

You watch. If PeePee starts bringing out the Marth or something, people's opinions will flip round again so fast your head will spin.

2 other peaches out placed every marth at apex if you wanna put it that way.... marth is just capped out and doesn't win tournaments even if peach may be at her limit now she is winning nationals yes i know the player is the best in the world but lets see him win with marth from what i have seen his marth is good.

 

[Blistering Speed]

2 other peaches out placed every marth at apex if you wanna put it that way.... marth is just capped out and doesn't win tournaments even if peach may be at her limit now she is winning nationals yes i know the player is the best in the world but lets see him win with marth from what i have seen his marth is good.

You are a moron. I say this factually, not out of dislike.

 

[twizzlerj]

ok thanks i really wanted to argue but that made me chuckle so we are good. Glad you don't dislike me

 

[Warhawk]

... what happened in here?

 

[twizzlerj]

i said peach is better then marth and people exploded its all good though will always be 100% sure peach is better then marth but if i stir things up i guess thats cool