Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Geenareeno]

john

Icwatudidther. No but I totally agree, with you and BlisteringSpeed.

 

[Xyzz]

Fun thing for me about the Peach - Fox matchup: I get in a situation, can't think of a good way to handle it, should it arise the next time. Try to look up what Armada does. It just doesn't happen to him. Not a single time :D

 

[twizzlerj]

Do you really think Peach is better? Explain why, if you don't mind, because I'm curious why people think so, when it's clearly not the case.

I don't think i know peach is better. Peach can limit the opposing characters movement and hits harder then marth. In the head to head match up i think peach should win turnips are good and floaty characters are just hard on marth. marth is better then peach against fox that just shouldn't be argued. Then again im not a top player so no matter what i say anyone can argue with me and say i don't know **** which is fine its just another reason for me to keep improving and get better at the game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox Peach is strange.

 

[Construct]

I don't think i know peach is better. Peach can limit the opposing characters movement and hits harder then marth. In the head to head match up i think peach should win turnips are good and floaty characters are just hard on marth. marth is better then peach against fox that just shouldn't be argued. Then again im not a top player so no matter what i say anyone can argue with me and say i don't know **** which is fine its just another reason for me to keep improving and get better at the game.

>Peach hits harder than Marth.
Hahahaha, no. While a peach-down smash or chaingrab leaves quite a mark on an a spacy, a Marth grab/tipper/utilt/fair/literally anything is going to do much more with a fairly good chance at a death combo. On non-spacies, there is no chain grab for peach and the down smash does much less damage.

>In the head to head match up i think peach should win turnips are good and floaty characters are just hard on marth
Turnips are easily swatted away by Marth, they add very little to the equation. Floaties aren't that bad for Marth; Marth tacks on 50%+ every time he gets Peach off stage by just swatting her off again and again, and his utilt is reliable killer. Additionally, due to Marth's own floatiness, downsmash does very little to him. The only thing peach really has going for her is that she can edgeguard marth relatively easily. Her floaty aerial approaches just flat out don't work on Marth, her dash attack is relatively easy to avoid and punish, and she can't succesfully outcamp him.

Peach isn't the best; good players just make her look that way.

 

[Beat!]

Apparently twizzlerj knows that Peach is better than Marth and wins the head-to-head. There's not much else to discuss. I guess I and everyone else who thought differently have been wrong all along.

Thanks, twizzlerj.

 

[ShroudedOne]

>Peach hits harder than Marth.
Hahahaha, no. While a peach-down smash or chaingrab leaves quite a mark on an a spacy, a Marth grab/tipper/utilt/fair/literally anything is going to do much more with a fairly good chance at a death combo. On non-spacies, there is no chain grab for peach and the down smash does much less damage.

>In the head to head match up i think peach should win turnips are good and floaty characters are just hard on marth
Turnips are easily swatted away by Marth, they add very little to the equation. Floaties aren't that bad for Marth; Marth tacks on 50%+ every time he gets Peach off stage by just swatting her off again and again, and his utilt is reliable killer. Additionally, due to Marth's own floatiness, downsmash does very little to him. The only thing peach really has going for her is that she can edgeguard marth relatively easily. Her floaty aerial approaches just flat out don't work on Marth, her dash attack is relatively easy to avoid and punish, and she can't succesfully outcamp him.

Peach isn't the best; good players just make her look that way.

I'm glad that someone else said it. This post is gold.

 

[twizzlerj]

Apparently twizzlerj knows that Peach is better than Marth and wins the head-to-head. There's not much else to discuss. I guess I and everyone else who thought differently have been wrong all along.

Thanks, twizzlerj.

no prob knowing things is always good.

 

[Xyzz]

The only thing he got wrong is, that turnips DO add a lot to the equation. They give Marth an incentive to approach (yeah, he can easily ftilt / fair them, but doing so for the whole match should become tiresome), and they give Peach a really nice approach option in the form of aerial turnip toss -> FC aerial, and they are amazing for edge guarding Marth, by forcing his double jump or completely halting his momentum.

I think I've read someone calling the matchup even at the highest level and in Marths favor below that, which feels somewhat right to me. Both characters are really good when they can get below the other, it's just infinitely easier for Marth to get and keep Peach above him. And it is definitely possible to space around Marths stuff and bait him to attack thin air, but it is really hard to do it precisely enough to be able to capitalize on the whiffs afterwards (slooooow Peach does not approve of that huge sword), and slight mistakes here are so devastating (those times where you know exactly he is attempting to fsmash you out of dash approach, and you WD back, only to slightly misspace it, and get tippered... arhagrhagrahrg).
While it is easy for Marth to get Peach to a fairly high amount of percent with uair (/...) juggles, it is not easy for him to land finishing moves on her, and "randomly" throwing out finishing moves is much better on not-top-players. The really good ones, are pretty amazing at not getting hit by those, and the other thing is: The result in a case of success for Marth stays the same at all levels of play: Peach dies. If he is not successful, what Peach can get from it is highly different at different skill levels. She has to be in a position to capitalize, and the punishes from better players are going to be muuuch harder.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I don't think i know peach is better. Peach can limit the opposing characters movement and hits harder then marth. In the head to head match up i think peach should win turnips are good and floaty characters are just hard on marth. marth is better then peach against fox that just shouldn't be argued. Then again im not a top player so no matter what i say anyone can argue with me and say i don't know **** which is fine its just another reason for me to keep improving and get better at the game.

Lulz

>Peach hits harder than Marth.
Hahahaha, no. While a peach-down smash or chaingrab leaves quite a mark on an a spacy, a Marth grab/tipper/utilt/fair/literally anything is going to do much more with a fairly good chance at a death combo. On non-spacies, there is no chain grab for peach and the down smash does much less damage.

>In the head to head match up i think peach should win turnips are good and floaty characters are just hard on marth
Turnips are easily swatted away by Marth, they add very little to the equation. Floaties aren't that bad for Marth; Marth tacks on 50%+ every time he gets Peach off stage by just swatting her off again and again, and his utilt is reliable killer. Additionally, due to Marth's own floatiness, downsmash does very little to him. The only thing peach really has going for her is that she can edgeguard marth relatively easily. Her floaty aerial approaches just flat out don't work on Marth, her dash attack is relatively easy to avoid and punish, and she can't succesfully outcamp him.

Peach isn't the best; good players just make her look that way.

Gold post.

Since when are turnips terrible for marth???
Its so easy to catch them and are at best annoying, but they arent really a huge problem for marth.

Imo the matchup is only close to even because Marth has to either gimp her or hit her up to 200% to actually kill her while its easier for Peach to edgeguard him

 

[KirbyKaze]

"the fox matchup isn't that bad for peach, armada beats every fox in the world, you can't john about the matchup"

Kind of like how Peaches say,

"Wobbles beats every Peach in the world except Armada; ICs vs Peach isn't really that bad for ICs."

 

[ShroudedOne]

.....fair point, I guess.

 

[JPOBS]

Please tell me this was facetious or something. I don't want to live a world where people think Peach>Marth.

Because Armada is amazing. Smashboards can't distinguish between player skill and character ability. Never could and never will.

The problem with this community is that no one is ever willing to accept change. Inertia is one of our greatest downfalls. Marth was good for like 8 years, but its ****ing 2012. You try to tell people these days that marth sucks, or peach is > marth, and they will lose their minds.

I honestly believe Peach is probably better than marth. And (i think) KK was being serious when he said that too. And sure it probably has a lot to do with Armada influence. But then again, it took us 2.5 years of jiggs dominance for us to move her from mid tier into top so I'm not really surprised this thread with peach is following suit.

There's probably a good argument behind why peach > marth, but no one would listen unless it came from the mouth of someone with a super rep. So forget trying to discuss it to any extent in this thread. Lets get back to costume discussion.

I've always thought white kirby was SWAGCITY.

 

[Jonas]

no discussion of "best character colors" is complete without

When I see that I just can't help but think of these guys.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wasn't being serious. I do think Puff is better than Marth, however.

 

[Xyzz]

If I use Ness in friendlies, I'll always use that color, shouting chants of a popular German soccer club, who use that color scheme xD

 

[KirbyKaze]

I use green everything except like... Sheik. And Marth sometimes.

 

[Beat!]

Green Marth *****

and red Falco

 

[Jonas]

Those are like the most awful colours for those characters. Especially red Falco.
White is probably worse for Marth though. Ugh..

 

[Beat!]

I'm going to fight you
and I'm going to kill you
until you're dead
today!

 

[Wake]

Green Marth, green Sheik, green Puff, green Fox, pink or green Peach, green Kirby...

Yeah I like green.

But now after seeing the word "green" so many times, I'm beginning to think it looks strange.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You forget the part where no one has given a good explanation as to why Peach > Marth, JPOBS. You can't say, "Peach is better than Marth," and then when people rail against you, go, "Well, no one will listen, so we can't have a discussion."

Not ONE person who has stated they believe Peach > Marth (in this thread so far) has been able to give logical points as to why. Therefore, us traditionalists will continue to be stubborn.

 

[ILoveKe$sha]

It seems like its a lot easier for peach to get kills on marth than vice versa so even though peach gets less openings it doesn't take much to get him off stage and gimp.

 

[Construct]

I agree with Shrouded One. If someone gave a convincing, logical explanation than I'd be more than happy to change my views. So far we just have twizzlerj's awesomeness.

It can be a pain for Marth to finish Peach, but he doesn't really mind that since he can just slap her around all day. Have you ever seen a Peach attempt to recover against Marth? Not a pretty sight.

I play blue for just about everyone.

 

[Strong Badam]

Marth & Peach are both pretty good characters. Good contenders for 5th. Marth does a lot better against Fox than Peach does; this is probably one of the strongest points for Marth > Peach. The Marth vs. Peach match-up is close enough to even where it's mostly irrelevant to whether Marth > Peach or vice-versa.
Peach does a LOT better against ICs, but unfortunately for her there are like 2 ICs mains so that MU doesn't really help her much in tournament.

 

[Habefiet]

Green Marth, green Sheik, green Puff, green Fox, pink or green Peach, green Kirby...

Yeah I like green.

But now after seeing the word "green" so many times, I'm beginning to think it looks strange.

I find that most words look incredibly strange if you stare at them long enough. With the plausible exception of "whirlpool," which to me looks aesthetically pleasing. I'm weird like that.

If Armada went Marth and won a tourney with exclusively him (which based on what I've seen of his Marth looks genuinely possible), what would happen to the Peach > Marth talk? What does it take for someone to say "It's the player" versus "It's the character (in part)?" I'm not trying to imply anything about what anyone has said, it's just a thought I had while I was looking at this mini-debate.

I'm astounded at how many people think white Marth is so hideous. I always thought it was better than green/red.

 

[JPOBS]

Red falco is terrribbbllee, oh god. its unbearble. The only useable falco colors are Blue and Neutral. Best character in the game with the worst colors.

<3 green marth though.

You forget the part where no one has given a good explanation as to why Peach > Marth, JPOBS. You can't say, "Peach is better than Marth," and then when people rail against you, go, "Well, no one will listen, so we can't have a discussion."

Not ONE person who has stated they believe Peach > Marth (in this thread so far) has been able to give logical points as to why. Therefore, us traditionalists will continue to be stubborn.

This is all very circular. You claim "no one has given good explanation why peach > marth", but the only reason that is, is because when people do give an explanation, it isn't seen as "good", and gets immediately shot down by the traditionalists. So that leads people to not want to argue because they know their arguments will be seen as "not good enough" because they go against the current circlejerk. Its a vicious cycle:

1. argument why peach better than marth
2. Hugely outnumered by traditionalist thinking, gets shot down immediately and described as being "not a good explanation" regardless of content. all good points will simply be counter argued ad infinitum.
3. No one listens
4. lack of discussion
5. pervasiveness of the traditional marth better than peach mindset because people don't bother to argue because of steps 2 and 3.

The only thing to break this cycle is if a popular player with a good reputation puts in the effort to argue the points. They get to bypass step 2 because players respect them and atleast give credence to their opinion and so something may come of it. need evidence? look no further than cactuar's ruleset amendment thread.

As for why I personally don't want to make an argument for peach > marth:
I'm not good or popular enough to go against the status quo, so im not going to waste time on futile prospects.

 

[Beat!]

Red Falco is so smooth and cool wtf is wrong with y'all

But yeah green Marth *****, at least you got that right <3

 

[Warhawk]

Red Falco is so smooth and cool wtf is wrong with y'all

Yea, I don't know why everyone hates on Red Falco, I think its either Red or Blue for the best color for him. Then again, I don't think Falco's colors are that bad and everyone else seems to think they're horrible so maybe I just have bad taste.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Peach has Puff-Syndrome. "OMG THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD USES PEACH, SHE MUST BE UNDERRATED" No. Hes just a really good player. Ken was the best player in the world for years, and marth was ranked 3-5th. Tournament results are one thing, but outliers cannot excuse the majority.

 

[JPOBS]

wasn't marth second behind Fox during ken's reign?

funny you bring up "puff syndrome" though. Puff was mid tier for years before Mango/Hbox started to win. And now look 4 years later, everyone considers puff to be top 5, but that was only after the best two players in the world used her. If anything, your argument only lends credence to the argument of those who think peach is underrated, not disproves it.

maybe i'll just check back in 2015.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

wasn't marth second behind Fox during ken's reign?

funny you bring up "puff syndrome" though. Puff was mid tier for years before Mango/Hbox started to win. And now look 4 years later, everyone considers puff to be top 5, but that was only after the best two players in the world used her. If anything, your argument only lends credence to the argument of those who think peach is underrated, not disproves it.

maybe i'll just check back in 2015.

No, marth was put to 2nd during m2k's reign. Before that, marth topped off at 3rd i believe (below sheik and fox).

As for puff syndrome, I am talking about people overrating her due to tournament successes of mango/hbox. Btw, puff was mid tier before king, who got 5th at an MLG and people **** their pants. Mango was barely a name until he won pound3 and at that point the "final" tier list was already out with puff tied with falcon.

 

[Construct]

Marth moved to the number 2 spot in 2003 as a knee-jerk reaction to Ken's first-place streak, only to lose that spot in 2004 when the "OMG KEN IS GOOD MARTH IS GOOD" sensation died down. Moving Peach up would be exactly the same process. The same thing happens in 2008 with the rise of M2K.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So, tell me JPOBS, why is Peach better than Marth?

 

[JPOBS]

No, marth was put to 2nd during m2k's reign. Before that, marth topped off at 3rd i believe (below sheik and fox).

As for puff syndrome, I am talking about people overrating her due to tournament successes of mango/hbox. Btw, puff was mid tier before king, who got 5th at an MLG and people **** their pants. Mango was barely a name until he won pound3 and at that point the "final" tier list was already out with puff tied with falcon.

Oh I see what you're saying. Yea I remember being one of those people that was like "omg stfu puff isn't good, its just 2 people who are very good players". Well regardless, if people were overrating her because of the tournament success of mango/hbox, that eventually materialized into the overwhelming majority of people thinking she's now 3rd or 4th best.

I just think its funny that its exact same thing happening this time around, except I'm on the other side of the fence because I realize the similarities.

Marth moved to the number 2 spot in 2003 as a knee-jerk reaction to Ken's first-place streak, only to lose that spot in 2004 when the "OMG KEN IS GOOD MARTH IS GOOD" sensation died down. Moving Peach up would be exactly the same process. The same thing happens in 2008 with the rise of M2K.

And then it happened again around 2008-2010 with puff. You say that like its a bad thing.

Good/Top players showcase what a character is capable of beyond what the community at large previously thought. What is a tierlist if not a reverberation of the current top level metagame? I see no problem with having a tierlist oscillate in response to the push-pull mechanisms of a gameplay trends.

So, tell me JPOBS, why is Peach better than Marth?

NEVER! MWWWHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont see any peach advances from armada. Hes just very consistent. Peach still has a lot of terrible matchups, enough so that armada won't even play peach against all characters.

 

[Mew2King]

armada says puff is god tier in pal, still no. 1 in ntsc

 

[JonnyW]

Falcon > Puff

Seriously though I thought there was no difference in Puff going from NTSC to PAL. Maybe its just cause the other characters are worse?

 

[JPOBS]

ya i just watched the podcast interview with hbox today. He seems to think puff is lower than falcon.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I dont see any peach advances from armada. Hes just very consistent. Peach still has a lot of terrible matchups, enough so that armada won't even play peach against all characters.

This. Armada isn't doing new Peach things that we've never seen before (watching older Peaches helped me realize where a LOT of the similarities are). He's just doing everything exceedingly well, and it shows.

@JPOBS: *narrows eyes* Dinkleburg...