Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Strong Badam]

idk why these people tried to debate with you twizzlerj. You won the argument when you stated that it'd be like trying to argue that the sky is not blue.

 

[JPOBS]

well he does have one good point. There are 3 peaches in apex results before there is even one marth. more marths made bracket cuz they just had to wade through pools of spacies. But when it came to the real deal, they crumbled cuz marth sucks.

peach > marth.

 

[Warhawk]

well he does have one good point. There are 3 peaches in apex results before there is even one marth. more marths made bracket cuz they just had to wade through pools of spacies. But when it came to the real deal, they crumbled cuz marth sucks.

peach > marth.

Well I mean its not like it helped that the top Marth player forfeit midway through the tournament. Also other than M2K I would say Vanz and MacD are probably better players than the rest of those Marths that made brackett and then Armada is just Armada. I think that the number of Marths making brackett indicates that he's still pretty good.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

in theory puff is 3rd (within the realm of humanly capable stuff), in reality she's the best in the game

she breaks the game in terms of technical skill/mental thought required; she gives you the most reward per unit of skill you put in by a longshot. honestly, this alone should warrant a #1 spot on the tier list; it's just the fox/falco theorycrafting that keeps people from putting her there.

she automatically has highly favorable matchups vs 80% of the cast because they have no response to either her fair ledgestalling (which nobody uses) or her cc which plenty of characters cannot grab (such a thing should never have been put in the game); usually both.

hbox saying that she's below falcon, let alone not in the top 3, suggests either an attempt to gain credit or.. extreme levels of fraudulence? hopefully the former..

i'm sorry juan, but that is a horrendously scrubby statement

edit: here's my tier list. it's based on the highest level of play i believe is humanly capable at this point, which is why i put jigglypuff 3rd. at semi-pro levels and below, though, i believe she is #1.

SSS: Fox, Falco
SS: Jigglypuff
S: Sheik
A: Marth, Peach
B: Ice Climbers, C. Falcon, Dr. Mario (constant debate between ic's/falcon. falcon wins the head to head, ic's does much better vs top tiers)
C: Samus, Pikachu, Ganondorf, Luigi (pika/ganon are close. i put pika higher because he has more potential)

below C is unviable. MAAAAAYBE mario is viable

Hey, you have no proof Jigglypuff is a "she". Why not just call it..."it"? Because that's what it is, honestly. It might just be a little sexist.

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Puff is female.

 

[Strong Badam]

puff likes it in the *** like the ***** she is

 

[leffen]

"hbox saying that she's below falcon, let alone not in the top 3, suggests either an attempt to gain credit or.. extreme levels of fraudulence? hopefully the former.."

LOL irony

@Marth vs Peach /whatever - You guys should do less general statements and talk more about what matchups you think gives Marth/Peach the upperhand.

Mine, for example:
Using "Evenish" so that we can get some real debate going... using numbers is stupid
I do believe though that Marth has the upper hand vs Falco and Puff though.

Marth/Peach vs Fox : Evenish / Definitely big to decent Fox advantage
Marth/Peach vs Falco: Evenish / Evenish
Marth/Peach vs Puff: Evenish / Definitely huge advantage for Puff, unplayable at higher levels (about as bad as fox, but less prone to human error)
Marth/Peach vs Sheik: Definitely Sheik advantage, but still doable matchup/ Evenish (adv shiek?)
Marth vs Peach: Definitely Marth advantage, still doable
Marth/Peach vs Falcon: Evenish/ Definitely Falcons advantage
Marth/Peach vs ICs: Evenish / Definitely Peach's advantage
Marth/Peach vs Doc: Definitely Marth advantage
Marth/Peach vs Samus: Definitely big to decent Marth advantage / Evenish

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah I agree, Falcon players always place top 2-3 at every international here in america. hax is a fraud for saying Falcon isn't 3rd best or higher. (??)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why do people think results always mean going up on the tier list?

Peach's MU didn't really change.

 

[leffen]

Strong bad - I assume that you aren't OMFGNOWAY against Peach being "Falcon" like level, right? (or putting her outside of the top 3)

Peach does better than Puff, on low/high level, historically and doesn't have ONE player which STILL does worse than the best Peach player anyway

 

[ShroudedOne]

Leffen's post is what I mean by, "Give me an actual reason why Peach is better than Marth." Sadly, it took this long.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Puff is female.

Where's the proof, mang?

puff likes it in the *** like the ***** she is

omg hdu

Jigglypuff is an adorable character. A great addition to the Melee cast.

 

[Strong Badam]

Peach is like better than Falcon but not by much. You still didn't really respond though; you mentioned the irony in Hax's statement about Jiggs, when Hax has a fairly realistic view of Falcon's ability (Somewhere between 6th and 8th like everyone else) while Hbox's view of Jigglypuff is far different from the norm.

 

[Niko45]

Leffen is just required to comment on everything Hax says don't you know

I agree that Jiggs is extremely good (at least top 3) but I don't really agree that she's easy to play.

 

[leffen]

I didn't really wanna go into why Hax is such a fraud - but fine

Calling out Hungrybox to be CRAZY because he doesn't put Puff in the top 3 or flaming him for trying to gain credit by underselling his character is hella ironic because Hax (and some falcon mains) ALWAYS tries to try undersell their character to extreme amounts.

The peach point (only applies if you don't see peach being ****TONS better than falcon, which is frankly, dumb) is that a character of that level (since hbox put him around falcon) could still dominate (like Armada does).

A few examples of Hax trying to undersell his character to gain credit etc, and just overall being hilariously biased
finding these and more was hilariously easy LOL

S: Falco, Fox (in no order; probably falco > fox though)
A: Jigglypuff
B: Sheik
C: Marth, Peach (in no order; undecided)

everyone else is terrible. marth and peach are hardly viable/have to outplay their opponents by a longshot to win. any character not on this list should never win a national unless someone obscenely talented comes along/something gamebreaking is discovered

^Notice how he leaves Falcon in the "Terrible" tier?

jiggs takes negative skill

falco and sheik take zero skill

fox takes a little skill

LOOOL

ask any falcon main why we picked him up in the first place. it's not about winning or the money, it's about overcoming a challenge

we'd be cheating ourselves in picking up god falco for other matchups

;D

 

[Strong Badam]

he saw dat edit ;D

 

[leffen]

I saw dat edit ;D


edit: lol @20 people reading the thread

heh

 

[Warhawk]

Yea but Hax... I dunno he talks like Falcon's really bad but then when he's asked to explain he makes it sound like its not so bad, just difficult so maybe he just exaggerrates when he tries to make shortened explanations about Falcon. Or maybe he just changes his mind a lot I don't know.

 

[Construct]

The responses that are directed directly to twizzlerj are making my sides hurt. Strong Bad and Blistering Speed should have a talk show.
I'm patiently waiting for an explanation for Peach's superiority besides "ZOMFG ARMADA" (who I genuinely believe to be the best player in the world, no disrespect). Current Peach players in tourny seem to be better than current Marth players. That says literally nothing about the characters themselves.

Out of curiosity, what was the last big tourny a fox won?

 

[john!]

leffen is making excellent, rational points, and i'm starting to wonder whether someone has hacked his account.

Leffen's post is what I mean by, "Give me an actual reason why Peach is better than Marth." Sadly, it took this long.

peach is better than marth

Spoiler

in a world where everyone plays sheik and ice climbers

 

[leffen]

lol something like that. He can provide reasonable explanations for specific things but then he just sucks balls putting it into relation with other things
my guess is huge influence of bias lol

I remember when he said "Falcon-Sheik isn't even my best matchup, its just way more even than you guys think" on the podcast ~3 months ago.

loses to M2K's sheik

bam its 65-35 its impossible im just amazing at the matchup


@John: Lmao. When did I ever make irrational points? Off topic/offensive sure, but rarely if ever irrational

 

[JPOBS]

Why do people think results always mean going up on the tier list?

Because that's exactly what history dictates in every way imaginable?

Marth went up to 2nd during M2ks reign. And coincedentally has fallen off as m2k has fallen off.
Puff went up after Mango/Hbox
Pikachu went up after Axe
etc

Its not so much that results = tierlist. Its just that when players show success with a character, they are obviously doing things/showing things that the community was heretofore unknowledgable about.

Peach's MU didn't really change.

derp.

edit: Hbox thinks puff is BELOW falcon. Hax (according to the lis the posted a few pages back) thinks falcon is exactly where the rest of the community thinks he belongs. I fail to see how there is even a question that hbox's view is the more egregious claim.

 

[leffen]

Its just that when players show success with a character, they are obviously doing things/showing things that the community was heretofore unknowledgable about.

LOOOOOOOL

I HOPE you're kidding although everything tells me the opposite -_-

if anything armada showed how horrible the puff-peach matchup is and how terrible fox-peach is on ps and how much better she is in pal vs sheik



@the last point: I didn't say that it was more against what ppl thought or w/e - I just said that it was ****ing ******** and hilarious

and "the rest of the community"... jesus, think a bit for yourself will you. The "rest of the community" also thought that Puff was horrible before and lots of players think that puff isn't top tier for sure. (Mango and Hbox both thought that puff was falconish level, the only two players who have top level tournament experience with Jigglypuff)



I'd probably put Jiggs at 5th place, after FoxMarthSheikFalco. Mainly because of her having a terrible matchup vs Fox (and hes the most common and the best), loses slightly to Falco (hbox/mango hate the matchup both btw) and Marth. She wins over Sheik but that matchup is still doable (<3 kk) and thats not to forget that puff has much worse matchup spread vs the rest of the cast than the other top tiers.

 

[BerzerkPixel]

lol, I thought Mario was the best next to Marth.

 

[Warhawk]

if anything armada showed how horrible the puff-peach matchup is and how terrible fox-peach is on ps and how much better she is in pal vs sheik

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought Armada did quite well against Hungrybox except for like 1 match whenever they played Puff vs Peach. Still lost but from what I saw from Armada it seemed doable, just difficult.

 

[Mew2King]

Habe - ive 4 stocked hax and jman in friendlies with puff back in 2009/10. (hax was not as good then/jman was better then), i dont use her cuz i don't have faith in her. I 4 stock ppl cuz planking is broken (except 1 time i 4 stocked jman legit, death combos, like up throw Uair regrab, up throw pound uair rest (from left FD to middle of FD) and back throw gimps. if I don't get the lead, im not good enough to get it back, that's why i don't risk her in tourney.

 

[leffen]

He got 6-0d at Apex, always loses in friendlies/doubles and HONESTLY (I know people will rage at this) Mango was HORRIBLE at the matchup and still managed to win Genesis while losing 4-2 with Falco

^neither uthrow uair /uthrow pound uair should combo with proper di btw

seriously you've brought up those friendlies like 173013710381 times

 

[Strong Badam]

But mango is the greetest player ever!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[john!]

the thing is, m2k, we don't have any reason to believe you're the third best puff in the world unless you prove it by beating good players with her

i'm not saying you definitely aren't the third best, i'm just saying that you shouldn't be surprised if people doubt you

 

[Niko45]

Anyone else remember back in 2010 when puff was winning everything and hbox himself said Puff was 2nd only to Fox?

 

[Warhawk]

He got 6-0d at Apex, always loses in friendlies/doubles and HONESTLY (I know people will rage at this) Mango was HORRIBLE at the matchup and still managed to win Genesis while losing 4-2 with Falco

Hmmm I didn't realize Armada played Hungrybox in 2 sets at Apex 2010. And yea, Mang0's Puff played far too aggressive for the Peach matchup... Actually probably a part of his problems with Armada's Peach in general is how aggressive he plays.

 

[Habefiet]

Habe - ive 4 stocked hax and jman in friendlies with puff back in 2009/10. (hax was not as good then/jman was better then), i dont use her cuz i don't have faith in her. I 4 stock ppl cuz planking is broken (except 1 time i 4 stocked jman legit, death combos, like up throw Uair regrab, up throw pound uair rest (from left FD to middle of FD) and back throw gimps. if I don't get the lead, im not good enough to get it back, that's why i don't risk her in tourney.

So... you're saying Puff takes skill.

I will forever be astounded at your memory of every remotely noteworthy match you've ever had.

I'd say more about this whole debate, but Leffen is putting in work right now and I find myself agreeing with everything he says on this issue.

 

[leffen]

Mangos problem was NOT that he was too aggressive - hungrybox plays just as, if not more "aggressive". Hungrybox was MUCH better than mango at putting out the perfectly spaced bairs that totally locks down Peach and he could actually deal with the turnips (which isn't hard).

Mango just spaced badly (VERY VERY badly lol), spam'd nair too much, didnt know how to handle peach's fair/turnip and thats the only reason it was close

just look at it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atJKXt1taMg... he plays the matchup hilariously wrong lol and constantly gets hit by super obvious moves that anyone with a bit of peach exp would avoid

 

[JPOBS]

LOOOOOOOL

I HOPE you're kidding although everything tells me the opposite -_-

if anything armada showed how horrible the puff-peach matchup is and how terrible fox-peach is on ps and how much better she is in pal vs sheik

I'm not sure what this was in response too? All I said was that when top players use a character, then tend to flesh out matchups and generally, that character rises on the tierlist, as seen in m2kmarth, mangopuff and axepika. What you said doesn't really conflict with what I said.

@the last point: I didn't say that it was more against what ppl thought or w/e - I just said that it was ****ing ******** and hilarious

and "the rest of the community"... jesus, think a bit for yourself will you. The "rest of the community" also thought that Puff was horrible before and lots of players think that puff isn't top tier for sure. (Mango and Hbox both thought that puff was falconish level, the only two players who have top level tournament experience with Jigglypuff)

That's exactly my point this whole time -__-

We're saying the same thing, except you haven't seemed to be following the thread closely for the past few pages. I said this same thing a while back (the rest of the commnity thinking she was terrible before like 08.)

My point was that most of the time, what the community agrees on usually lags behind what the results would indicate.

I don't really take anything any top player says about their own character seriously. They pretty much unanimously rank their own character as being much worse than their opponents characters. This is usually summed up by "well the top player knows their character better than everyone else" which may be true, but if you listen to m2k/armadas/hax/pp/hboxs opinion on their own character, they all think their character sucks (or atleast loses matchups unrealistically).

*shrug*

 

[Dr Peepee]

stop quoting me on falco and your arguments saying I think he's bad

I'm still thinking about it

 

[JPOBS]

^ lol ok sorry.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Top players DO know their character much better than anyone else. I don't know why they would say that their characters are "much worse than people think" (which most of them don't do, btw, they're simply being realistic), when, at their level, they only lose from being outplayed, not because of a particular MU (except in the case of Hbox/Armada, I guess).

What gives you, or I, or most other players, the right to say, "Peach/Fox isn't that bad," when Armada has probably played thousands of Foxes, and obviously knows it more than most players?

The point is, none of us has the amount of experience of a top player, so discrediting their opinion on their own character is rather silly (yes, I know they can say silly things, like M2K, but I'm speaking generally).

EDIT: Let me clarify. I'm not saying to take everything they say at face value. You also have to use your own judgement. But don't discredit it entirely.

 

[JPOBS]

Well shroudedone, it took you 3 paragraphs to agree with me. I already said:
This is usually summed up by "well the top player knows their character better than everyone else" which may be true

edit: FTR, I think the top players have the best opinions when they are when they are explaining why their character struggles in a matchup. Its just one of those things, they've learned the bad parts of a matchup inside and out in order to master it, and the good parts to them just come so second nature that they tend to gloss over them at times. So this ends up into their arguments being loaded towards why their characters loses/struggles in a matchup because that's whats most important to them. Which is fine, its just a trend I've noticed and think is funny.

eidt: "i dont take them seriously" was a bad choice of words/hyperbole.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oops. =D

But I'd caution you against not taking them seriously. Just take them with a grain of salt.

 

[Hax]

you guys are using character popularity and tourney results as your rationales for tier list placement when you shouldn't be. neither of these things have anything to do with how good a character is. fox and marth, for example, are highly undeveloped/underrepresented in today's metagame which seems to be why people are forgetting that they're 1st/5th respectively. while jiggs only has one top player, i'd say juan does a good job of maximizing her potential. still, you guys underrate her because only one person plays her.

imo the criteria should be exactly as i worded it in my other post: "how much does a character reward you per unit of skill you put in?". this imaginary, subjective unit of measurement that i speak of varies over time. for example, being able to execute fox/falco techskill in 2003 was considered extremely difficult; it required more units of skill. back then, sheik was easily #1 in the game because while she didn't have the potential of fox/falco, she was much more accessible. nowadays, being able to execute fox/falco stuff is commonplace; the mental aspect of the game is definitely regarded as much harder (at least at top level). spacies techskill requires far less units of skill; now that people are finally able to tap into their unlimited potential, they sit at the top 2 spots.

what i'm proposing is that the tier list varies depending on your skill level, and the accepted tier list should always be based on the highest skill level currently available. at lower levels, for example, sheik and puff are easily the best characters. if i were to teach someone melee today, i could make their sheik or puff a hell of a lot more threatening than their fox or falco.

on no tier list, however, should peach be higher than marth. one character requires significantly more execution, creativity, and risk, and slightly more precision than the other. there is a difference between having ridiculous disjointed hitboxes to edgeguard with (all with huge windows of opportunity) vs. nair/fair/fc bairing on extremely specific frames several times then risking your life offstage to fair fox. there is a difference between having relatively low-execution, sometimes low-precision combos and juggles with fair/uair vs. hitting the opponent with unorthodox parts of hitboxes (weaker part of bair, side of usmash etc.) just to continue combos (hence we'd rarely even seen peach 0-to-deaths until 2009). there is a difference between killing someone 50% of the time you dthrow them offstage because they have to guess between counter and wd onto the ledge vs. having to hit someone plenty of times in succession to get a kill. the list goes on. (these are meant to serve as examples; i'm not saying that peach doesn't do plenty of things better/easier than marth. i'm saying that overall, marth is easier)

i consider marth and peach extremely skillful characters, just as i consider every character in this game except for puff (moderately skillful), but marth has far too much of dat herpderp for him to be below peach. peach has much better shield pressure, a much better recovery, and slightly better killing capabilities, but she has to work much harder to do anything else. she is also one of the deepest characters in the game. marth also has far better matchups vs the top 3, which alone should put an end to the debate.

i won't get into falcon because as you all know, i consider him (and IC's) to be the cutoff characters. as in, the first characters down on the tier list who i believe have glaring weaknesses that significantly impede their chances at winning. when i try to elaborate on this stuff, i get called biased by people like leffen who've been playing this game for 2 years and think they've mastered it/know more about falcon than me, or people who cannot possibly fathom that i'm making factual statements, not biased ones. i won't get into jiggs for the same reason; you guys are incapable (not a diss - i'm just saying you haven't played the game for long enough) of viewing her through the right lens. it isn't a coincidence that m2k, armada and i agree on her being god; at top level, it really is absurd how much she gets per unit of skill. all i'll say is: zero risk (only character in the game with this), close to zero execution, most OP spammable aerial in the game along with fox nair, 2 strategies that make for near-autowins vs most of the cast, braindead edgeguards, best recovery in the game, can't be comboed, 1 hit kill move, etc. take it or leave it; i'm done.