Official BBR Tier List v7

[Jimmy?]

I always assumed Luigi's recovery was better just based on options. Up, down, and side B all do some type of recovery, while Mario really only has one move to recover well.... even if his one move is safer, the distance is far inferior, and I guess I always just assumed that being punished for 50% is better than just not being able to make it back to the stage....

But I don't play either of them, so what do I know. D:

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mario's recovery isn't that good imo... I can't think of many situations where me hitting Mario off-stage wouldn't result in a stock loss.

At least Luigi has misfire.

 

[Fuujin]

Only high level is Mekos and maybe FAE.

Lol @ "maybe"

You are aware FAE beat Kain in tournament right?

 

[Dre89]

What is the tier list supposedto measure? I originally thought it was how good a char was, but if money-usage ratios counts and outliers don't then that can't be the case, because an outlier reflects how good a char can be, regardless of how many other people are at that level.

So what is it supposed to measure?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Lol @ "maybe"

You are aware FAE beat Kain in tournament right?

Beating one top level player doesn't make you high level yourself.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

FAE also beat Reflex recently.

 

[Juushichi]

Beating two doesn't make you high level, Ryker-chan.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He also beat the almighty Fuujin this weekend. Now all he needs to do is beat Z and he's #1 Lucas.

 

[Luigi player]

so lucas beats wolf...

 

[_Kain_]

I beat him in losers, so no lucas doesn't beat wolf

You guys nitpick data so bad I can never tell what to take from this thread lmao

 

[Hippieslayer]

I know I'm not supposed to spam anymore...
But it's funny that you're so wrong. Spacing without thought isn't auto-pilot, it's having a complete understand of your character, and your opponent's character in a neutral position. Also, what exactly do you know about the highest level of play? You're almost a high level player... and yet you know the mentality of every top player? For reals?

Adaption should also happen subconsciously. If you keep thinking about what they MIGHT do, they'll actually do what they're GOING to do. If you think, you'll hesitate. I don't care how many stupid people in this thread call me wrong, they have probably NEVER experienced high level play before. It's COMPLETELY OBVIOUS if you've EVER play ANY top level player that they're not actively thinking very often.



To be on topic... I'm mad Luigi didn't get into low-tier. I'll get him next time!
NEXT TIME!

Another reason not to care if anyone thinks you're wrong with this post is that if such a person exists he must be borderline ******** or something.

Seriously, it speaks for itself that the game is played on an intuitive level. If you actually tried to consciously calculate the best approach you'd either end up with a predictable playstyle, or you wouldn't be able to move your character at all because calculating the best approach is a task much to complex for the conscious part of human cognition.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Did he place well at Vengeance?

 

[Kink-Link5]

If you all want Olimar to go down, just go to tournaments and lose with him. Apparently that's what decides tier placement nowadays.

 

[Eddie G]

Nick Riddle is spitting so much truth right now.

Whenever I find myself "in the zone" and able to actually give higher level players a good fight, I tend to not think too much (or at all) about what I'm going to do next and just let my fingers/intuition/knowledge of my character handle it. There have also been times where I'll find myself thinking a little too much and will hesitate in situations where I could have done something, and end up getting decisively wrecked for it. Once people are able to understand the game and subconsciously play with a good sense of risk/reward...that's when they begin to separate themselves from the masses and perform well, imo.

 

[Cassio]

Cassio 2012!

Aww yeh Gonna ride this momentum to the top!

Umm, Ive felt mario is better than luigi for awhile as well, and in terms of recovery I think it depends. With good DI mario has a lot more options than luigi imo since he has spamable fireballs that angle downward to assist his recovery, and can stall a bit with cape. Luigi can recover better from down low, but honestly theyre both in a pretty bad position.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'd rather have Luigi's. They both have bad recoveries, but at least Luigi has more crappy options instead of just one crappy option + a stall. Neither of their fireballs are going to help them very much and would be situational at best while recovering.

 

[Mekos]

oh Nick Riddle just forget it and believe what u want. I will believe what I want. To each his own.

But imo yer post is sooo wrong. Think about anything competitive in life. And then think about yer statement. Again believe what u want. This is why so many people don't get doubles I guess.
I guess we "think" about this situation differently...mwahahahaaha

And I don't care what u call me. I know what I am. A player who focuses on doubles and I know my strength. Whatever title u try to throw on me doesn't matter.
And cuz I don't care what ur opinion is of me I won't fire shots back.

 

[Linkshot]

If I knew neither of you beforehand, I'd agree with Nick Riddle simply because he doesn't use "cuz" and "ur"

 

[Cassio]

My understanding of the utility from a downward arcing projectile comes from maining pika. Its very useful at creating space for mario since the opponent is force to react to them. For that reason I think you have the scenario backward. Luigi has the best singular option for recovery from the side and down low, but marios qualities give him more versatility from above.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

i totally agree that most top players don't think very much

 

[Eddie G]

Lol either defuse the situation or continue to add to it, but not both at the same time. Make up your mind yo.

 

[Mekos]

It just blows my mind that people can think like that. I feel like some people have honestly never played a team FPS at a high competitive level. I have and brought those team fundamentals to smash. To be the best you want to constantly be "proactive". As you are doing your best to maintain control of the match, smart opposing teams will throw tricky situations at you. No situation is exactly the same. And u have to think very quickly about how to counter.

There is something I like to call "Dubs Smarts". It's a wonder I see only about 6 people in the whole smash community utilizing it. Guess people are not thinking when it comes to smash

Yea but I have no clue what I'm talking about. Just believe the guy with the all the lingo and with perfect grammar in a forum.
I think he doesn't understand that some people can think extremely fast and analyze a situation and act accordingly too it.

Take any example outside of smash and listen to yourself. People who run a business are not thinking? Are u hearing yourself? The business world is extremely competitive. But at the highest level Walmart is not thinking. My head is going to explode!!!

 

[Player-1]

I think what Nick Riddle means is that you're subconsciously thinking....you're not really putting any work and effort into your thinking you're just letting your subconscious take over...and no that's not autopiloting because you can subconsciously adapt also.

 

[Mekos]

And that is where he is so wrong.
Guys this is the definition - existing or operating in the mind beneath or beyond consciousness. Are u serious. That is what zombies do constantly!! He is trying to sound so smart but is so wrong. It's not that deep. The muscle memory is the subconscious part of competitive video-games, sports, games, etc.

Okay I'll give u a smash example. Me and Esam almost have our team healing down 100% but not yet.

So when we have the spacing for it Esam likes to jump and thunder jolt me, and then before he hits the ground double jump and thunderjolt me again(two thunderjolts for awesome % recovery). Alot of times he does this and he gets punished.

Sometimes because I am thinking like 3-5 steps ahead of the match I will say Esam only throw one thunder jolt at me. Now countless other times I don't tell Esam what I am thinking and he gets punished. This happens several times in our GF match against Chu and Boss.

So I guess NR would say that Esam is subconciously doing our tactic of knock away and then heal. While I am "thinking" knock away...okay we have enuff for 1 jolt cuz his partner will reach us in about 1 second and he can punish Esam with an fsmash or back air (just an example). And he is probably right. Cuz that is the next level I am training esam to get at in dubs. When u are playing another team that uses teamwork (has constant spacing for punishes, follow ups, and team combos) u have to be proactive in your gameplay and try to "think" 3 steps ahead. If u don't do this u will find yourself getting punished alot (or taking the worst punishment).

Now teamwork is rare in our USA smash community so u don't see this level of dubs play often. But try to understand what I am saying.

Competition in general is the same at the highest level of play in various things in life. Another example for him. Are u telling me that Chess players aren't thinking? That's the thing. People don't understand what it means to be "proactive" in competition. Cuz most people are "reactive" in the way they manage there gameplay.

 

[Player-1]

lmao, I don't think you know what subconscious means if you're comparing it zombies....

 

[Mekos]

Dude understand my point. I just gave u the definition. And that was of course slight joking.

But it actually stands cuz zombies operate on the subconscious level. facepalm* These theory guys don't rebuttle the message but nit pick at a small part of the major point.

But we can move on. Some people will get it while others won't. Can't force people to see things the way u do in life u know.

 

[Cassio]

Mekos you know we share views on several things, but you need to stop trying to brute force your argument. You can try to downplay the importance of conveying your message with good examples, grammar, and terms but it is important and if youre doing a poor job than youre being counter-productive to your cause.

Have some confidence in your beliefs, and as opposed to convincing people through arguments you admit youre not great at putting together, prove it.

Also second time Ive seen people compare the economic term for competitive with its normal definition. They're not the same thing >_>

 

[Mekos]

How do i prove it? By showing youtube vids and explaining them?

Teach me Cassio...and I have confidence in my beliefs. Believe that

 

[Player-1]

I'm not really sure how you can say something so factual about a fictional creature, Mekos....


In your example about Esam only subconsciously doing knock away and heal and you thinking about all of the details....you can subconsciously do that too so your point is null.

 

[Mekos]

I think in the end we are just having a battle on definitions.

So that doesn't even really matter. I mean I've explained what I mean. U can choose to understand my message or continue to rebuttal my definitions that u feel are flawed.

lol at yer first point. Simple. The people who create fictional characters/creatures give facts about them. For example, Storm of the X-men is a mutant. Fact. Wow! Did I just beat player-1 in a small argument!? Yay!

 

[Player-1]

so you're just saying the phrase 'subconsciously thinking' contradicts itself.

okay what if instead of using that phrase I say subconsciously adapting or you're so use to thinking the way you do in brawl that you do it with little to no effort and you just don't realize it.

 

[Cassio]

I just meant doing well in tournament with your way of doing things.

Honestly though I think you care too much that people agree with you. People are going to disagree about a lot of things, and its important to not get hurt about every disagreement. However you need to seriously consider what your main point is (its been all over the place since youve been posting in here) and then figure out if its really so important that youll spend significant time convincing people or demonstrating that your opinion is much better than theirs, and finally think about the best way to go about changing peoples minds. I'm almost certain making multiple quickly put together posts in the tierlist thread is going to do very little towards accomplishing your goal.

 

[Eddie G]

Yeah it is hard to keep track of what the main point or theme of your argument is when you go from: what you believe the highest level of play consists of, to firebending, to doubles play, to zombies, back to doubles play, with constant repetition of "ok I'm done with this now". Stick to one point, cite examples that accurately convey that main point, and if people still disagree with you...then so be it. Sometimes both parties will just agree to disagree.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I beat him in losers, so no lucas doesn't beat wolf

I hear one match only decides everything if you're the one winning

 

[Linkshot]

I agree that Mekos' mentality is great for doubles. Sadly, doubles does not influence the tier list (Samus would be rock bottom if this were the case, Gdorf/Zelda would have actual merits), so this dubz mentality is a moot point. Nick is talking about playing singles: your mind vs another's mind. If you always make a calculated risk, you get predictable. If you stop thinking and let the fundamentals in your subconscious take over, then you'll just pick options on a whim, the closest something organic can get to a "roll die" function.

For the record, I love team competition in games. I strongly prefer doubles over singles in Smash Bros and I'm addicted to Uprising's Light vs Dark. I understand where you're coming from, Mekos, and agree that open thinking + communication is key (unless you're really lucky and get a partner that thinks on your level naturally) to a successful team, but open thinking and calculation will get you constantly punished in 1v1 play.

 

[Mekos]

I agree with all of you. And that is probably why I think the way I do. I am a doubles player.

And in my way of thinking about competition I'm thinking about team games. Why I keep giving FPS team examples.

Thanks guys

Eddie and Cassio most of the time i like having fun on these forums. I give people serious advice via skype, in person, and youtube vids.
I only "try" to explain myself in detail and seem to fail when people like NR and Player-1 rebuttle me. Cuz I am passionate about what I believe in and want everyone to get better. And feel my way of thinking is real good u know. I've seen the positive outcomes of it. Also, when I say I'm done I truly am and want to move on. But people keep coming back and continuing the discussion. And since I'm passionate I take the bait.

Basically, when I learn something I share it with others in life. I'm not the type of person to keep it to myself and abuse it against others.

 

[Lukingordex]

I agree that Mekos' mentality is great for doubles. Sadly, doubles does not influence the tier list (Samus would be rock bottom if this were the case, Gdorf/Zelda would have actual merits), so this dubz mentality is a moot point. Nick is talking about playing singles: your mind vs another's mind. If you always make a calculated risk, you get predictable. If you stop thinking and let the fundamentals in your subconscious take over, then you'll just pick options on a whim, the closest something organic can get to a "roll die" function.

For the record, I love team competition in games. I strongly prefer doubles over singles in Smash Bros and I'm addicted to Uprising's Light vs Dark. I understand where you're coming from, Mekos, and agree that open thinking + communication is key (unless you're really lucky and get a partner that thinks on your level naturally) to a successful team, but open thinking and calculation will get you constantly punished in 1v1 play.

Is possible to make a doubles tier list?

 

[KageMurphy]

Don't make me firebend yer butt and make u become fallen.

 

[Eddie G]

EE just won the thread. Done.

 

[Meru.]

Nick is not only talking about Singles.

I think Mekos has misunderstood Nick Riddle's post so badly, it's not even funny anymore. The arguments of both of Mekos and Nick Riddle don't even conflict with each other.

Mekos, business people have to think continously about multiple things at the same time (which is indeed what you are saying), however because they have been through the same things for several times, they have learned to do some tasks automatically and with relatively much ease. To an observer it may seem that (s)he is doing it so easily, it looks like (s)he doesn't even have to think about some things anymore (which is what Nick is saying).

You can apply this to Smash. Like you said you should think about everything and adapt to everything you can, but don't think too much about ONE thing or try to predict that ONE move, because that will only cause you to hesitate and eventually to panic. If you concentrate well enough at several moves of your opponent, you will almost automatically see answers to them.

Your argument actually enhances Nick's.