Official BBR Tier List v7

[Z'zgashi]

Japan has a handful of Lucas players. I dont follow Lucas much, but Im a regular on the Ness boards and they post Lucas stuff all the time and Ive seen at least 3-4 different Japanese Lucas players through there.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yeah Japan has really good Lucas rep in terms of the others in their Lower end of the tier list.

@Joker: You are absolutely correct haha. =P

 

[#HBC | Joker]

And I'm not talking about MT events either. Regular events. Competing with top tier characters and everything.

I like Lucas as a character. When I first got Brawl and I tried Lucas out, I immediately thought he was 10x better than Ness cuz his up and down smash weren't complete and total butt (seriously, **** that useless yoyo). I liked playing around with Ness in 64 and Melee, but with Lucas around I pretty much never pick him up. It took me awhile to realize that even tho overall ground game Lucas>Ness, the fact that air game Ness>>>Lucas coupled with Grab = death makes Ness more solid. Still prefer Lucas.

 

[Shaya]

Lucas players in recent times have been putting in work in making his air game seem right up there with Ness'.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yeah, Ness' air game is still superior to Lucas' but it is being shown that his air game is not bad at all.

 

[Chuee]

Yeah Japan has really good Lucas rep in terms of the others in their Lower end of the tier list.

Japan doesn't have any good Lucas', or Ness' either. I've seen a few videos of some here or there but they don't have any consistent ones or any that have placed high before.

 

[Lukingordex]

Assuming he has to pass a character in order to get into MT and them not just adding another character to MT, it should be Luigi, Lucas then PT in LT. But I'm still unsure if Lucas should go past PT just because of what Reflex does with the character. It's a tough one lol

I'm general,PT has better MUs than Lucas,I think that's a fair reason to see PT above Lucas.

Also,I think Lucas has potential to be a Mid Tier character,but I don't want to see that happening because I want to use him at Low tiers tourneys.

 

[Delta-cod]

Low tiers shutting out other low tiers doesn't really matter That much to me. I'm looking at how he can approach and bait out the whole cast, along with top tiers that you're more likely to see in tournament.

Lucas definitely gets scrubbed out easier than yoshi, which is why I don't think their viability is that different. But once you're past that I think Lucas still has some options, it's just very difficult, whereas I think whenever Yoshi get's outscrubbed he really can't do as much because he's not as solid of an all around character as far as tools go.

It really depends on how you look at the game. There are solid arguments for either. But I think arguing either being far away from the other in terms of viability is quite ridiculous.

Agree with all of this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Japan doesn't have any good Lucas', or Ness' either. I've seen a few videos of some here or there but they don't have any consistent ones or any that have placed high before.

M2K / Vinnie claim that Pitch from Japan is the best Lucas player. I've never seen her play but I find it a bit hard to believe.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Id believe it, from the little ive seen of JP Lucas', theyre pretty damn good.

 

[Vinnie]

M2K / Vinnie claim that Pitch from Japan is the best Lucas player. I've never seen her play but I find it a bit hard to believe.

She is probably the 2nd best. Mekos is probably the best.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

vinnie u n jason just thirsty. also come to ascension

 

[Orion*]

Lucas players in recent times have been putting in work in making his air game seem right up there with Ness'.

this. Ness has a very linear air game, with little to no solid mixups.

 

[Mekos]

She is probably the 2nd best. Mekos is probably the best.

 

[Mew2King]

i never even played her afaik, you're making things up gheb

 

[Player-1]

he likes to do that

 

[DMG]

No he's always right. Snake is better than MK

 

[_Kadaj_]

He has a losing record vs me by like 2 maybe 3 sets.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, I looked at Vinnie's AiB blog but I remembered it wrong. Not everybody who has bad intentions or 'makes things up' just because he remembers incorrectly.
http://allisbrawl.com/blog.aspx?id=14330

 

[Tesh]

People are just inclined to believe you have bad intentions because you spout incorrect information all the time to polish japan's wang as hard as you can. If you didn't clearly have an agenda there, people wouldn't second guess everything you say as misleading or 100% wrong.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I came here to say exactly what Tesh said.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't have an agenda. I've never said anything about Japan that hasn't turned out to be true. I don't meatride anybody and have no bias. People just see what they want to see, not what's true.

 

[Raziek]

I don't have an agenda. I've never said anything about Japan that hasn't turned out to be true. I don't meatride anybody and have no bias. People just see what they want to see, not what's true.

The fact that you actually believe you don't meat ride Japan is astonishing. Probably 75% or more of what you post in this thread is pertaining to, or responding with, something along the lines of,

"X player of Y character in Japan is amazing" or "But x character (fox for example) does better in Japan", even if what you're saying is barely contextually relevant to the topic.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't meatride Japan. Your single-digit IQ just doesn't allow you to understand a lot of very fundamental differenecs. Which is why you speak nonsense like '75% of what I post is about how amazing XY is in japan'. I'd like to hear some concrete examples other than Earth, Masashi and Yui.

 

[Raziek]

How exactly are you justified in excluding the 3 mos-

Never mind, not even worth it. Remain delusional about what everyone else can very clearly see.

Edit: Going to have time after class, will sort through your last 50 posts in this thread, just for kicks. (Not counting this conversation).

 

[infiniteV115]

No, I looked at Vinnie's AiB blog but I remembered it wrong. Not everybody who has bad intentions or 'makes things up' just because he remembers incorrectly.
http://allisbrawl.com/blog.aspx?id=14330

To be fair, you did make up the thing about that Lucas being > Mekos. It just wasn't intentional and was only because you remembered incorrectly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah that's true but I also said that I found it hard to believe [in case I remembered correctly]. So yeah, no hard feelings about that to anyone, I was wrong and I admit it. Didn't mean to slander M2K or Vinnie xD

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

My feelings are so hard right now.

 

[Raziek]

Alriiiiiight. Gonna sort through the last 50 of Gheb's posts, ordering them into 3 categories. Blatant Meatriding, Borderline, and No Meatriding present.

I will likely filter through any posts that are one-liners or responding to flaming/trolling, as those aren't relevant to the core discussions of the thread.

For the purposes of this experiment, I define "Meatriding" as the following:

1. "Injecting reference to Japan into a topic that it was otherwise NOT a part of" - Therefore furthering the aforementioned "Agenda" of praising Japan constantly.

2. My previously mentioned criteria.

even if what you're saying is barely contextually relevant to the topic.[/COLOR]

The highlighted Red is what I referred to in def 1.

Further, I will not be excluding your references to Earth, Masashi or Yui, as that would be throwing out a large part of the sample, and more or less amounts to you saying "Show me where I did it, except these really obvious times where I did it."

Now, moving on.

[collapse=Blatant Meatriding]
1.

MK can't beat Pit by using only Tornado. American Pits are just bad. All of them.

Earth's wins vs M2K may not mean everything but they're not worthless either - unless you can show me the american Pit player who is good enough even to not get two stocked by M2K you can't claim that he's plain bad at the match-up without actively admitting how much you lack the understanding how Pit as a character works. Because even if M2K sucked at the match-up there must be a difference between what american Pits do and what japanese Pits do.
Earth doesn't only have a winning record vs M2K but he's also fairly even with Akira [back when he was good] and Masashi is like 2-0 or 3-0 in sets vs Rain's MK [who definitely knows the match-up]. Even if the match-up is difficult it reflects very poorly on the american Pits if you blame it all on the character in your ignorance.

It's really sad though. Americans confuse whatever Pit players they have for somebody who actually knows how to use the character when actually only Masashi, Earth and cyve do. No wonder everybody thinks the character sucks.

Blatant bashing of American Pit players while Meatriding Japan/EU. Category 2.

2.

Then again, when you look at not only how consistently Pit places well but also the records of Earth and Masashi it's kind of hard to argue that they are wrong in placing Pit rather high on the tier list.

Category 2.


[/collapse]

[collapse=Borderline Meatriding]
1.

M2K / Vinnie claim that Pitch from Japan is the best Lucas player. I've never seen her play but I find it a bit hard to believe.

Borderline, as the context involved you immediately jumping to Japan's defense after Chuee claimed Japan had no good Ness's/Lucases. Chosen under Criteria 2.

2.

Snake bair beats aerial shuttle loop during its start-up because no invincibility frames.

But ... I'm not sure what your point is ... or how it's related to what I'm saying. If you're a bad player I won't blame you for it. I'm a bad player too. If you're aware that you are bad then you already have the start of something - a lot of people are bad and just don't realize it and thus get stuck on the wrong way. It's just that I don't understand why you're not broadening your horizon and try to view your characters from all possible angles. Isn't it true that Pit actually has gotten some work done ... outside of the US? Ever wondered why? Ever tried to get an idea about it? And have them ideas bounce off somebody who thinks similar to you? It all seems so unconstructive the way you get stuck on your ideas and then insist on them. Rather than to find a new way.

Borderline reference to Japan, placed in this category due to Maharba's involvement in the discussion.

3.

For those interested: quiKsilver and AscWolf who are currently in Japan have asked Nietono about the most recent japanese tier list. This is what they got:

Top:
S+
S
A+

High:
A
B
C+

Mid:
C
D+
D

Low:
E
F
G
H
I

There's a couple of things I can agree with [Fox, Pit, Wario, Ganondorf] and I generally feel like they've got the top tier pretty much completely correct. Only thing I'd change from the Top + High tier is that Pikachu should take ZSS' spot.

This is Category 1, injecting discussion of Japan where it otherwise wasn't involved. Borderline due to actual relevance.

4.

Why is it that whenever people talk about Ganon actually not being the worst character in the game they always mention like Link, Zelda or Jiggs as contenders but never Captain Falcon, who is worse than all of them? Falcon for worst char plz

Sheik has never been considered a Snake counter in Japan as far as I know. The match-up has always floated between +1 and +2 Snake favor, which looks pretty accurate.

Japan injection. Cat 1.
[/collapse]

[collapse=No Meatriding Found]
1.

I have read a different frame data thread ... it had Pit among the best spotdodgers. Weird.

And back rolls are just good in general but the fact that all his defensive tools are viable [plus the rest of what I said] make his defenses still better than most of the cast. Even if it seems like I had inaccurate data the point remains *shrug*

2.

Pit's entire defensive engine is a collection of moves with frame data and attributes that range between over-average and among the best in the game. His back roll is good, his forward roll is among the best of the game, his spotdodge is tied with the best ones in the game too. He has a fairly fast OoS jump and his shield can tolerate a surprising number of hits. Pit is virtually immune to all kinds of traps - the benefitial frame data within his defensive movess makes it harder for opponents to frame trap him than almost all other characters [especially since Pit doesn't suffer from poor fall speed like Lucario or Olimar do], his 5 jumps, fast glide and solid dair are among the strongest equipments in the game to defend againsts juggle and of course Pit's capabilities on the ledge aren't even up for debate.

Couple that with what can be argued to be the best - in any case the most versatile - projectile in the game, a very good recovery and the fact that Pit is not light but mid-weight and you have a character with incredible defensive capabilities.

3.

And when Akuma beat quik with DDD
And when Atomsk only lost to Salem after switching to Falco
And when Coney went last hit with NR anyway [regardless of SD, mind you]

And when no ZSS ever beat a competent DDD since the MLG days.

4.

He beat Earth [Pit] and Cross [Sheik] and the tourney was single elimination so it's reaaally hard to say how much it actually matters for him to have used Pikachu over like all the other characters he can play. And winning one local tournament with Pikachu - using MK in the most important set by far - hardly adds a lot to the Pikachu metagame. If he does the same in a double elimination tourney and beats like good MK, Olimar, Diddy, ICs et all then I'd be willing to admit that the current Pikachu metagame goes beyond ESAM's accomplishments. For now that's not the case.



GW blows.

Surprisingly, this one goes against Japan meatriding.

5.

=/= hard counter



The only mid tier characters that Falco might be even with are Kirby and Sheik. Marth is even / loses to ROB, even with Kirby, even with Sonic and DK is still kinda up in the air.



5-5 vs ICs is very generous. Even if you agree with Shaya the tourney results of that match-up definitely push it slightly in IC favor, whereas Falco vs MK is closer to 5-5. I don't rely on the match-up chart. I was among the people who worked on it and I can 100% assure you that the methodology isn't very sound and if a new match-up chart is being made I will not contribute to it again.



Marth and Falco are both even with Snake. Neither does 'significantly' better than the other. Wario has become a non-factor in the metagame, pretty much. Falco's match-ups vs MK, Olimar and Diddy Kong matter more.

Imo it's more like:

Marth:
MK 4 / 6
ICs 45 / 55
Olimar 5 / 5
Diddy 45 / 55
Snake 5 / 5
Pikachu 5 / 5
Wario 6 / 4
DDD 4 / 6

Falco:
MK 5 / 5
ICs 35 / 65
Olimar 6 / 4
Diddy 5 / 5
Snake 5 / 5
Pikachu 35 / 65
Wario 5 / 5
DDD 6 / 4

I find that spread vs top & high tiers to be a bit in Falco's favor as he does worse in only one match-up vs the top 5 and it's also the only one of those match-up he actually loses.
It is also often argued that ROB slightly beats Marth and Marth definitely doesn't have a favorable match-up against Kirby or Sonic at high level. If they are *not* even then it's in the opponent's favor, not in Marth's.

Don't get me wrong though. I still think Marth is a good character and at worst is solid high tier. But at this point a rise in the tier list is absolutely not warranted, let alone outplace Falco [who had better results than Marth in all recent nationals except SKTAR].



People always think my views are radical because I don't blindly agree with the consensus but I'm confident that time will prove me right. I've been clowned more than just once in the past and then it turned out I was actually right. I don't care about the credit though. I just want people to smarten up more and find a consistent methodology they can agree with and by which they estimate a character [match-up chart is not a credible source!]. Most people don't even think through these things by themselves and just repeat some pre-chewed opinions that those guys with purple names have indoctrinated upon them. I prefer sticking to empirical facts

6.

Snake is a better character than Diddy Kong, has better match-ups and places better. Unless I see actual application of single naner locks in top level tournament play Snake will remain a better character than Diddy forever.

Diddy in top 3 at this point of the metagame is 100% unwarranted and makes no sense whatsoever. 3rd/4th place are between Snake and Olimar.

-dead- @how wrong Joe is about Fox though.

7.

Wolf is truly a borderline character in my book. He's too good for mid tier but just not good enough to be actually high tier. I think him, Lucario, ZSS, TL and maybe ROB are all somewhere on that 'in limbo' level.

Anyway, for the next tier list I expect to see a deserved drop for Olimar and Diddy Kong. Both characters have a disadvantage against MK and ICs - the two best characters in the game. Meanwhile Falco can be argued to be even with MK and Snake to go even with ICs. I think this fact should be acknowledged by not dropping Snake and Falco down any further for now. I'm currently not seeing Pikachu up there, favorable match-ups vs Falco / Snake don't seem to be enough to make up for the disadvantages vs MK, ICs, Olimar *and* Diddy Kong. I'd put him as a solid high tier alongside Marth though.

Top:
S: MK > ICs
A: Snake / Olimar > Falco / Diddy

High:
Marth, Pikachu, Fox, Wario, Pit, DDD in no particular order

[/collapse]

.... I got lazy and tired of reading Gheb's opinions on things. I over-exaggerated on 75%, to be sure.

But out of the 14 substantial posts (read: Not one-liners, there were quite a few of those) that I came across, you're either blatantly or borderline meatriding in half of them, and you commonly bring up Japan in any discussions involving rulesets, stages or tier placement.

I won't claim that what I said with respect to "75%" was true, as that was largely exaggeration for effect, but goddamn it FEELS like a lot and I'm clearly not the only one who thinks so.

CERTAINLY you do it more than any other player on the boards, by far.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Raziek, stop sifting through people's post history and categorising it. It's ****ing weird.

Select individuals championing other competent regions is healthy discourse, especially on a forum with as heavy an American influence as this one.

 

[Life]

There's a difference between saying Japan has some competent players and "meatriding"

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That was a pretty poor example of Gheb's meat-riding tbh, it is pretty subtle so you need to read a lot of his posts to appreciate how he tries to inject Japan into discussions, like you said.

 

[kismet2]

i think raziek is salty

 

[da K.I.D.]

I don't have an agenda. I've never said anything about Japan that hasn't turned out to be true. I don't meatride anybody and have no bias. People just see what they want to see, not what's true.

You know that resized part, it applies to you just as much as everybody else. You know that right? So throwing a statement like that out there, immediately after saying that you have no bias is pretty hypocritical

 

[Davy Jones]

Do these tier lists matter that much? Or match ups for that matter.

I know Ganon is terrible, but that doesn't make him or any tier H characters unplayable, does it?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You know that resized part, it applies to you just as much as everybody else. You know that right? So throwing a statement like that out there, immediately after saying that you have no bias is pretty hypocritical

Well, in most arguments I'm involved in I try to give my counterpart a fair chance to make his points clear and understand them before I hastily call a judgment upon it. While it's true that I could improve in that aspect I disagree with the claim that it applies to me just as much as to everybody else. Most people are a lot more stubborn in that regard - I'm a lot more open to change my mind when I face a good argument and it's always more important to me to understand what my counterpart thinks [and to make sure he understands what I think] than to be 'right' about something.

You were probably trying to troll me anyway but here's my response just in case you were serious.

 

[NickRiddle]

Do these tier lists matter that much? Or match ups for that matter.

I know Ganon is terrible, but that doesn't make him or any tier H characters unplayable, does it?

It kind of does. Worse characters generally have worse match-ups.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think Gheb is overall a good poster. It's also worth noting that while he does like to prop Japan up a bit, they definitely don't need it, as they are definitely the strongest region in the world. It isn't like he's wrong. If he thought NY/NJ was the strongest region in the world like a lot of Smashboards used to think he wouldn't be getting any of the flack he does... and he'd be wrong about that.

Do these tier lists matter that much? Or match ups for that matter.

I know Ganon is terrible, but that doesn't make him or any tier H characters unplayable, does it?

It definitely matters, although in brawl it has mattered a bit less. You can play most of mid tier in tourney if you're good enough at the game and do pretty well. At a Really Big Tourney your chances of winning are virtually non-existent but you can do pretty well at locals and in regionals.

Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, etc. are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I honestly think that I just give credit where it's due. It's not just Japan - I have made quite favorable remarks about Mexico for example.

 

[Player-1]

Gheb just hates the USA

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22900449.jpg