Official BBR Tier List v7

[Supermodel From Paris]

disregard this post thanks.

 

[PMC66]

yes he is! link is secretly super amazing

well if thats the case then why doesn't he just come out of the closet and proove it.

honestly bottom tier should look like this

Zelda,Link,Jiggz,Bowser

worst character ever

Ganondorf

the tier above Ganon isn't arranged tbh i don't see the point of moving them around all 4 of them are so unviable it's not possible for any of them to win tournaments at a high enough standard.

But those are the characters that SHOULD be there, you could add Falcon to it but he doesn't have any -4 matchups and his speed and weight make him somewhat formideable than compared to those 4.

btw if i find out Lucas gets voted mid next tier list i'll ridicule you all i'd understand if it was purely tournament results but come on, theres matchups and the BBR's votes that make a bigger impact currently, if Lucas moves up it will be because BBR voted him up because Lucas' matchups are so out right dreadful.the only way he could get mid is if he gets voted mid.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Add Falcon to that list and I agree.

Falcon/ICs is -4 imo

 

[BJN39]

CF should definately be in that tier.
IMO, -4s don't matter as much if you have almost double the -3s of the other characters, even though I don't think CF does.

 

[smashkng]

IMHO there isn't much difference between a -3 and a -4 MU. Both should hardly ever be won at top level of play.

 

[PMC66]

umm Mekos vs Kadaj? ^.

 

[smashkng]

There are better Marths than Kadaj and I don't know how often he fights Lucases.

 

[fox67890]

Mekos said he beat every top Marth though

 

[PMC66]

they live in the same region so i'd imagine they fight often enough

 

[#HBC | J]

I actually think Lucas struggles just as hard as Yoshi does as far as reliably approaching and killing.

Like, he can get shutout pretty hard by Yoshi. Think about that for a second.

Lucas gets shut out pretty hard by Sheik/Marth, Yoshi doesn't even compete with that in terms of "shutting out". Yoshi is more of a slight nuisance.

I agree with Orion in top level play I could definitely see Lucas doing better than Yoshi but we only just started getting really good results lately with like Mekos. Miss Nasty though.

btw if i find out Lucas gets voted mid next tier list i'll ridicule you all i'd understand if it was purely tournament results but come on, theres matchups and the BBR's votes that make a bigger impact currently, if Lucas moves up it will be because BBR voted him up because Lucas' matchups are so out right dreadful.the only way he could get mid is if he gets voted mid.

BBR MUs = huge impact on tier list placement? Disregarding the Lucas' BBR MU chart, this is kind of silly. Lucas deserves to be mid-tier because he isn't a LT character. In the current meta-game, he has earned his placing at the bottom of Mid-Tier.

My $0.02

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Lucas is sooooooooo much better than the other low tiers. Mario is the only one who even comes close, and even he gets beat by Lucas. He should have been removed from low tier already.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I don't really think Lucas is good enough to go past Luigi in the tier list.

 

[#HBC | J]

Lol Luigi isn't the one to be worried about. Lucas belongs around Yoshi/Ness in the MT category but for the next tier list the only jump he should be making is out of LT.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I could see it happening only if PT went into LT. I don't see Lucas being better than Ness/Yoshi/Luigi.

 

[#HBC | J]

Funny enough, Lucas is ranked better on other tier lists than Ness/Yoshi/Weegee in Japan but it is opposite in America. I like the mirrored opposites things we got going on with the opposite communities.

Atm, I will agree with you and saying that Lucas shouldn't be going anywhere too higher on the tier list. The thing that should happen is one spot jump which would be just below Weegee or 1 above him.

 

[RaptorTEC]

A lot of tier lists are based slightly on representation, just because Japan has certain spots different doesn't mean it's right, it just means they might not have any rep for that character. The most extreme case imo is Pikachu.

Assuming he has to pass a character in order to get into MT and them not just adding another character to MT, it should be Luigi, Lucas then PT in LT. But I'm still unsure if Lucas should go past PT just because of what Reflex does with the character. It's a tough one lol

 

[#HBC | J]

It'll be interesting to see what happens next tier list haha.

 

[Z'zgashi]

J, there are literally 0 Yoshi players in Japan, and nobody knows how to use him there, thats why hes so low. The only player in Japan who uses Yoshi is Karamity, but he goes mostly Fox anyway.

And Weegee is pretty bad honestly lol.

 

[#HBC | J]

*shrug* @ japan thing. I was only bringing it up to make a cool statement on how it's opposite, but you are right which is true with representation.

Agreed on Weegee though. I don't really think he is LT but he deffo shouldn't be going up anytime soon unless some thing start going more positive for the lovable man in green.

 

[ぱみゅ]

IMO, Lucas belongs to MT by surpassing nobody.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lucas has some nice traits but the grab release nonsense is no joke.

Ness avoids it by being inherently kind of hard to grab, Lucas avoids it by outplaying his opponents. I think it's a pretty damning problem for a mid tier to have.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Well theres also that fact that due to the spacing and sliding lucas doesnt actually get destroyed by it as much as ness does.

For example, Sonic and Fox have a dash grab and small step grab out of GR against Ness but the most they can get against lucas is a forward tilt and... Dash up smash... Well fox might be a bad example, but for sonic, its the difference between a matchup defining factor and not even being worth doing to the point where you might as well just up throw him like every other character.

 

[| Big D |]

I vote we make Yoshi one spot out of low tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well theres also that fact that due to the spacing and sliding lucas doesnt actually get destroyed by it as much as ness does.

For example, Sonic and Fox have a dash grab and small step grab out of GR against Ness but the most they can get against lucas is a forward tilt and... Dash up smash... Well fox might be a bad example, but for sonic, its the difference between a matchup defining factor and not even being worth doing to the point where you might as well just up throw him like every other character.

Interesting, is there a list of followups by character around anywhere?

I still tend to think the reason it's OK for Ness to be mid tier is because it's hard to grab him in the first place. Lucas' followups may be less severe but round 1 of Mekos vs. Kadaj to me kind of says it all (even if he won that set).

 

[PMC66]

honestly pokemon trainer, Luigi and Ness should join low tier. DK and ROB to me are borderline mid/low the problem with the current mid tier is it's far too big because low tier kept getting moved up into it. Adding Lucas to mid tier is a terrible idea. he CANNOT COMPETE in a mid tier environment, Shiek and Donkey Kong completely destroy him with grab release and in shiek's case also her F-tilt lock.

So putting a character in an environment where he's practically unviable, given Donkey Kong is decently repped in mid tier tournies, why would you put a character who wasn't overpowered in his current tier. And then put him in a meta game where nearly every character in the tier has a winning matchup vs him?

Lucas is low tier, i'd argue that Mario is a better character, i've noticed Lucas does well because theres this sense of hope and faith that comes from his users. For mario mains thats virtually non existant, so of course Lucas will out perform Mario, Mario mains have i feel for the most part given up or moved to better characters.

I can write a masive essay on why Mario is a better character than Lucas but i've got an essay myself i need to write right now

 

[BlueXenon]

honestly pokemon trainer, Luigi and Ness should join low tier. DK and ROB to me are borderline mid/low the problem with the current mid tier is it's far too big because low tier kept getting moved up into it. Adding Lucas to mid tier is a terrible idea. he CANNOT COMPETE in a mid tier environment, Shiek and Donkey Kong completely destroy him with grab release and in shiek's case also her F-tilt lock.

So putting a character in an environment where he's practically unviable, given Donkey Kong is decently repped in mid tier tournies, why would you put a character who wasn't overpowered in his current tier. And then put him in a meta game where nearly every character in the tier has a winning matchup vs him?

Lucas is low tier, i'd argue that Mario is a better character, i've noticed Lucas does well because theres this sense of hope and faith that comes from his users. For mario mains thats virtually non existant, so of course Lucas will out perform Mario, Mario mains have i feel for the most part given up or moved to better characters.

I can write a masive essay on why Mario is a better character than Lucas but i've got an essay myself i need to write right now

Ness shouldn't be in low tier since he was able to win a mid/low tier tournament and get 7th place with mk banned.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=326126

 

[fox67890]

Well theres also that fact that due to the spacing and sliding lucas doesnt actually get destroyed by it as much as ness does.

For example, Sonic and Fox have a dash grab and small step grab out of GR against Ness but the most they can get against lucas is a forward tilt and... Dash up smash... Well fox might be a bad example, but for sonic, its the difference between a matchup defining factor and not even being worth doing to the point where you might as well just up throw him like every other character.

Fox actually can CG Ness. The thing is though, you need to buffer the dashgrab and not just the dash part, like with MK I think. It's a bit more technical to master, but it's do-able. Considering you can set it up out of a dair and soft nair it might not be too hard to land also. From a ground release, there's buffered dash up smash (and also another buffered dash grab) and from an air release, you can actually still dash upsmash him.

 

[infiniteV115]

Buffering dash grabs isn't hard at all lol, unless it's a buffered boost grab or something

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

you guys seriously under rate luigi. that character is so good. but aside from con con who exists that matters with weegee anymore? do any of the good luigi's still use luigi anymore? boss doesn't play in tournies ever from wat i heard. when was the last time anyone saw big lou? yoshq is alright, i've seen him play, but he's not amazing like those 2. yall have forgotten what good luigi's are capable of.

 

[PMC66]

^ Luigi is terrible for one reason.

Yes you have combo ability yes you can kill. How on earth do you get inside people to do it?

 

[| Big D |]

Down B is a pretty fast approach with the ability to put people in the air for juggles.

Playing Luigi you have to pretend you're on fire.

Spot, dodge, and roll!

 

[PMC66]

^ sounds like people playing on wifi in a terrible connection.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

or you can just be smart and good at powershielding like all good weegees......

 

[PMC66]

^ yeah thats another thing Luigi has to power shield everything or move backwards lol

 

[#HBC | J]

Well theres also that fact that due to the spacing and sliding lucas doesnt actually get destroyed by it as much as ness does.

For example, Sonic and Fox have a dash grab and small step grab out of GR against Ness but the most they can get against lucas is a forward tilt and... Dash up smash... Well fox might be a bad example, but for sonic, its the difference between a matchup defining factor and not even being worth doing to the point where you might as well just up throw him like every other character.

^This is very true. Ness has worse GR issues than Lucas, yet look at him.

Interesting, is there a list of followups by character around anywhere?

I still tend to think the reason it's OK for Ness to be mid tier is because it's hard to grab him in the first place. Lucas' followups may be less severe but round 1 of Mekos vs. Kadaj to me kind of says it all (even if he won that set).

Lucas is just as hard to grab as Ness. Ness has somewhat better tools for avoiding the grab due to his air game but otherwise, both are not the easiest to grab. The follow-ups do mean a big deal because the difference between Ness and Lucas is that it could mean the difference between stocks.

Also, I am looking into compiling a list for Ness/Lucas in terms of grab shenanigans when I get some down-time from college/acting/etc. x_X

honestly pokemon trainer, Luigi and Ness should join low tier. DK and ROB to me are borderline mid/low the problem with the current mid tier is it's far too big because low tier kept getting moved up into it. Adding Lucas to mid tier is a terrible idea. he CANNOT COMPETE in a mid tier environment, Shiek and Donkey Kong completely destroy him with grab release and in shiek's case also her F-tilt lock.

So putting a character in an environment where he's practically unviable, given Donkey Kong is decently repped in mid tier tournies, why would you put a character who wasn't overpowered in his current tier. And then put him in a meta game where nearly every character in the tier has a winning matchup vs him?

There are a couple of corrections to make in this post.

1.) In the most recent national Mid-Tier tourny (Whobo), FAE did extremely well in that (top 9? Correct me if I am wrong but he did well). Lucas can compete in Mid-Tier actually quite well.

2.) Sheik's Ftilt is not the reason the MU is bad....lol

3.) "Nearly every character" in MID tier does not have a winning MU against Lucas. That is incredibly silly to think so.

Lucas is low tier, i'd argue that Mario is a better character, i've noticed Lucas does well because theres this sense of hope and faith that comes from his users. For mario mains thats virtually non existant, so of course Lucas will out perform Mario, Mario mains have i feel for the most part given up or moved to better characters.

The sense of hope/faith is the primary reason that Lucas does well? Nonononononononono. Just because a couple Lucas mains are positive people when talking about our character does not mean that's the main influence of why Lucas does well/should go up.

How is Mario a better character? He practically defines what a LT character is in this game.

I can write a masive essay on why Mario is a better character than Lucas but i've got an essay myself i need to write right now

If you do have this, could I see/discuss this? Even if you don't plan on posting it in here, I'd be glad to see the other side of the argument. Thank you.

 

[NickRiddle]

or you can just be smart and good at powershielding like all good weegees......

That is why you throw out low-cooldown moves.

 

[Thebest1pj]

I'm the best.

 

[| Big D |]

I'm the best.

He's da bes

 

[Orion*]

I actually think Lucas struggles just as hard as Yoshi does as far as reliably approaching and killing.

Like, he can get shutout pretty hard by Yoshi. Think about that for a second.

Low tiers shutting out other low tiers doesn't really matter That much to me. I'm looking at how he can approach and bait out the whole cast, along with top tiers that you're more likely to see in tournament.

Lucas definitely gets scrubbed out easier than yoshi, which is why I don't think their viability is that different. But once you're past that I think Lucas still has some options, it's just very difficult, whereas I think whenever Yoshi get's outscrubbed he really can't do as much because he's not as solid of an all around character as far as tools go.

It really depends on how you look at the game. There are solid arguments for either. But I think arguing either being far away from the other in terms of viability is quite ridiculous.

I don't really think Lucas is good enough to go past Luigi in the tier list.

Luigi is bad, and while I feel like he could be better he hasnt done like anyyyyyyyything since mlg gimmick days.

J, there are literally 0 Yoshi players in Japan, and nobody knows how to use him there, thats why hes so low. The only player in Japan who uses Yoshi is Karamity, but he goes mostly Fox anyway.

japan has lucas players? O_o
/update me

honestly pokemon trainer, Luigi and Ness should join low tier.

I can write a masive essay on why Mario is a better character than Lucas but i've got an essay myself i need to write right now

this

honestly i think mario is about as good as the other "good" low tiers but like, lmao he produces beyond no results and I'm not trying to go back to placing 33rd so I'm gonna just put him where he belongs atm.

^ sounds like people playing on wifi in a terrible connection.

LMAO

i hate that **** that move ***** online.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Adding Lucas to mid tier is a terrible idea. he CANNOT COMPETE in a mid tier environment

Didn't Mekos just place like, top 8 in some big tournament within the last month or so? Don't FAE and Pink Fresh generally do ok in their regions? I think Lucas competes just as well as any other terrible character. He's not winning tons of tournies, but neither is any character not named Metaknight, or at least in the top tier.